The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3)

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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#381 » by kayess » Wed May 25, 2016 4:32 am

SideshowBob wrote:Obviously can't get ahead of ourselves with the Raps and won't 100% count out GS yet (though TBH, it looks about over), but what do we think about the CLE-OKC matchup?

My quick thoughts would be that 2012 framework shows up again. Cleveland is worse defensively but has GOAT 3P spacing w/Smith/Shump/Frye/Love/Irving/Delly and you run the offense with Lebron in the mid/low-post all night long (his scoring is way more polished and his playmaking IQ from the post is far above 2012) and he'll pick them apart with ball reversal or interior passing if they're shading and no OKC guy is going to contain him in single coverage. PLUS Cleveland's iso game is just in general better than GS (outside of Steph really) with Kyrie/Love plus I expect Love to revert to the mean with his post game (which GS lacks even more). GS's movement is amazing and Steph has crazy gravity on the perimeter but I think Cleveland's offense is deeper/more dynamic.

They'll lose a couple for sure because Russ is going to abuse their lack of secondary lane/rim rotation and OKC will wreck them on the boards (Lebron should have another >10 TRB/G Finals if he's being serious about this) and inside in general , but I think they can out offense OKC over the course of 6-7 games.


Spot-on: Durant's D on Curry: ball denial, help on penetration, funneling him into the bigs - isn't something he can provide on LeBron, his positional matchup in the series. Whereas GS has been completely unable to punish OKC's guards switching on their bigs, that simply won't fly against LeBron/Love, and even if Durant plays LeBron straight up it's going to be a nightmare for him, probably on both ends too (as LeBron won't let Durant get position in the post, is also great at ball denial, etc.)

If you look at OKC's best lineups and how they're doing so well against GSW, the same dynamic simply won't be present against CLE: If they go small, Ibaka's simply not good enough to abuse Love in the post, they're about equal rebounders, ditto with Durant vs. LeBron... The 2 bigs lineup is somewhat better: Kanter can keep going at either Love/Frye/Thompson, but he's not really going to be able to create for others, so you can live with that.

The big thing, is of course, Westbrook vs. Kyrie. Kyrie will probably work Westbrook more than Steph right now due to his handles, and predilection for driving to the rim (something Westbrook won't look as good as defending compared to his glue job on Steph right now), but he'll get destroyed, far, far worse against Westbrook's own penetration, and there won't be a Bogut/Ezeli/Green at the rim waiting for him, so he's going to feast.

Sending late help might mitigate this somewhat, but he's become to good a passer for that to work long-term; lots of different looks have to be thrown at him to stop his dribble drive. Trapping him could MAYBE work? Adams has shown flashes of being a great playmaker, Ibaka's decision making is slow enough that he probably can't exploit the Cav's rotations...

I still think it's Cavs favored, esp. since they've showed signs of adjusting. But if Lue's Irving/Love hook isn't as quick, Cavs might just get destroyed defensively for stretches.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#382 » by JordansBulls » Wed May 25, 2016 4:34 am

To be honest the Raptors will need to get the next game, they won't win game 7 on the road in Cleveland.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#383 » by rich316 » Wed May 25, 2016 4:41 am

I don't think you can have anybody favored against a team that is set to have just defeated a 67 win team and a 73 win team in back-to-back series. It's simply unprecedented. OKC looks like a team on a mission, Westbrook looks like he is about to seize the BPA title. If the finals is Cav vs. OKC, Westbrook would likely threaten 40 PPG. There's absolutely nobody on the Cavs who can make him think twice about dominating in the paint.
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Re: Re: Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#384 » by RSCD3_ » Wed May 25, 2016 5:05 am

rich316 wrote:I don't think you can have anybody favored against a team that is set to have just defeated a 67 win team and a 73 win team in back-to-back series. It's simply unprecedented. OKC looks like a team on a mission, Westbrook looks like he is about to seize the BPA title. If the finals is Cav vs. OKC, Westbrook would likely threaten 40 PPG. There's absolutely nobody on the Cavs who can make him think twice about dominating in the paint.


True but we've seen lebron in 09 put up Unfathomable numbers and lose, so maybe the cavs will force westbrook to beat him as a scorer and make life touh for others as the magic did in 2009
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#385 » by SideshowBob » Wed May 25, 2016 5:12 am

rich316 wrote:I don't think you can have anybody favored against a team that is set to have just defeated a 67 win team and a 73 win team in back-to-back series. It's simply unprecedented. OKC looks like a team on a mission, Westbrook looks like he is about to seize the BPA title. If the finals is Cav vs. OKC, Westbrook would likely threaten 40 PPG. There's absolutely nobody on the Cavs who can make him think twice about dominating in the paint.


Could say the same about SAS vs. OKC and GS vs. OKC (can't have anyone favored over team that just went 40-1 @home or 73-9 for the season, both >10 SRS) but what ended up actually being important was schemes/match-ups. So we should have the same thought process moving forward for a potential Cavs/OKC series - how do they matchup, what are possible exploits for both sides, etc.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#386 » by Sinant » Wed May 25, 2016 5:50 am

SideshowBob wrote:
rich316 wrote:I don't think you can have anybody favored against a team that is set to have just defeated a 67 win team and a 73 win team in back-to-back series. It's simply unprecedented. OKC looks like a team on a mission, Westbrook looks like he is about to seize the BPA title. If the finals is Cav vs. OKC, Westbrook would likely threaten 40 PPG. There's absolutely nobody on the Cavs who can make him think twice about dominating in the paint.


Could say the same about SAS vs. OKC and GS vs. OKC (can't have anyone favored over team that just went 40-1 @home or 73-9 for the season, both >10 SRS) but what ended up actually being important was schemes/match-ups. So we should have the same thought process moving forward for a potential Cavs/OKC series - how do they matchup, what are possible exploits for both sides, etc.


The biggest problem for the Thunder in my opinion is that the Cavs can somewhat comfortably tell LeBron (as long as Kevin Love remembers he's an NBA player) to do what he's been doing to Durant for the last 5 years and they'll be okay.

OKC is a vastly different team without Durant or when Durant is taken out of a game.

The Cavs have the one player on Earth (other than pre-2011 Ron Artest) that can really remove Kevin Durant from a basketball game.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#387 » by Dupp » Wed May 25, 2016 6:21 am

If lebrons ever gonna win a title for us its now. We have the matchup we want in the finals more than likely. Come out tomorrow and dominant like you should.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#388 » by toodles23 » Wed May 25, 2016 7:38 am

Dupp wrote:If lebrons ever gonna win a title for us its now. We have the matchup we want in the finals more than likely. Come out tomorrow and dominant like you should.

Just as a reminder for what he's done before in must win game 5s:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHrPp-xnEKA[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx4z_pCA_6k[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nlz7jItVg24[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UdG-Y0vSjc[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3raFzmEbGI0[/youtube]
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#389 » by Dupp » Wed May 25, 2016 8:20 am

That magic game 5 is his best cavs game ever... Fact.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#390 » by Quotatious » Wed May 25, 2016 8:33 am

Dupp wrote:That magic game 5 is his best cavs game ever... Fact.

Nah, I would definitely take '07 game 5 against Pistons over '09 game 5 against Magic. His game 5 against Detroit in '07 is one of the best playoff performances by anybody, in NBA history. I would say top 10, for sure.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#391 » by Dupp » Wed May 25, 2016 8:37 am

Quotatious wrote:
Dupp wrote:That magic game 5 is his best cavs game ever... Fact.

Nah, I would definitely take '07 game 5 against Pistons over '09 game 5 against Magic. His game 5 against Detroit in '07 is one of the best playoff performances by anybody, in NBA history. I would say top 10, for sure.



I do not agree.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#392 » by JordansBulls » Wed May 25, 2016 12:57 pm

Cleveland probably needs to start playing Mozgov to match Biyimbo and in case they play okc
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#393 » by LivingLegend » Wed May 25, 2016 2:03 pm

JordansBulls wrote:Cleveland probably needs to start playing Mozgov to match Biyimbo and in case they play okc


No Tristan just needs to earn his 80mill outside of his every other game offensive rebound hoard fest.

As much as I dont want to put ANOTHER big game all on LeBron, at his age, coming off a 40 min game and his history in a Cavs uni of being the guy or bust buuuuuuuut he needs to dictate this game. He cannot rely on any other players besides himself and his spot up shooters. Time to party like its 2011 LeBron. As much as I hate it. He shouldnt have to score 30+ and play 38 mins this game, but with the way the younger guys are playing right now, he is going to need to.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#394 » by Krodis » Wed May 25, 2016 2:22 pm

Honestly I don't think Cleveland has the interior defense to really stop OKC with the way both teams are playing right now. Obviously the Durant/LeBron match up has been favorable to LeBron, but I don't think that overcomes how well the Thunder are playing, and the Cavs current defensive issues.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#395 » by PaulieWal » Wed May 25, 2016 2:26 pm

I know SSB posted a good breakdown of a potential OKC-Cavs match-up and I do think LeBron will win his battle with KD but I just don't see the rest of the being better than this version of PS OKC. Russ is playing so much better than Irving and Love struggles against Ibaka.

Zach Lowe also pointed out that defensively Irving/Love PnRs give up 1.23 PPP which is horrible and Donovan will be sure to exploit that. He isn't Scott Brooks.

Unless the Cavs shooters are shooting 40-50% from 3 in the Finals I am not sure how they win.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#396 » by Nitro1118 » Wed May 25, 2016 2:41 pm

I like the OKC matchup for the Cavs. You simply cannot take LeBron out of the ballgame like you can with (injured) Steph. They will be able to run whatever sets they want, and will capitalize accordingly.

The main reason I like the matchup is because I don't think Lue will try and out-gun the Westbrook/Durant duo. They are trying to against the Raptors because of sheer talent, but as GS is figuring out, that is a death wish against OKC. I expect Cleveland to slow the tempo down and make OKC beat them with halfcourt execution, which is a style that favors Cleveland. In that sense, I don't expect Cleveland to get bullied in the paint like GS is getting, either.

This is the year for LeBron to bring the trophy to Cleveland.
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#397 » by JulesWinnfield » Wed May 25, 2016 3:02 pm

Just from a shear mental perspective there is something about the historical dominance of LeBron led teams over OKC that has to be taken into account. These Thunder have had a ton of success vs the Spurs over the years, at one point they won 11 of 12 from a sample beginning in the 2012 playoffs up until those Ibaka-less road games at the start of their '14 playoff series. They've been absurdly dominant at home against the Warriors (only 1 home loss ever to Curry's Dubs with KD or Russ in the lineup, came at the buzzer this year, took curry hitting a record 12 threes) so you knew if they stole one in Golden State things could get really interesting.

These spur and warrior teams are better than any of their recent incarnations, but the thunder success against them in this era shouldn't have just been dismissed. All people are a product of their experiences and that extends to basketball too, these prior head to heads can matter on a mental level. I'm honestly not that surprised to see the Thunder in this spot. I know they aren't surprised. Lebron brings a different historical challenge though and it has been a hurdle. This of course does not guarantee anything for the Cavs but there is a different dynamic worth noting
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Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#398 » by bondom34 » Wed May 25, 2016 3:08 pm

David Griffin, playing the really long con. Trading Dion Waiters to OKC to take out the Spurs and Golden State.
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Re: Re: Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#399 » by RSCD3_ » Wed May 25, 2016 3:11 pm

bondom34 wrote:David Griffin, playing the really long con. Trading Dion Waiters to OKC to take out the Spurs and Golden State.


Not to assume you guys or the cavs win but there's got to be some feeling that waiters could really want to stick it to the cavs and go away from what's made him successful right?
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Re: Re: Re: The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3) 

Post#400 » by bondom34 » Wed May 25, 2016 3:12 pm

RSCD3_ wrote:
bondom34 wrote:David Griffin, playing the really long con. Trading Dion Waiters to OKC to take out the Spurs and Golden State.


Not to assume you guys or the cavs win but there's got to be some feeling that waiters could really want to stick it to the cavs and go away from what's made him successful right?

He always plays poorly against them though. but he's been improved this PS, so maybe not. I'm actually wanting him back now.
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