'15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Quotatious]

Mike Fratello's All NBA ballot

First Team: Westbrook/Curry/LeBron/Aldridge/Pau Gasol

Second Team: Butler/DeRozan/Kawhi/Green/Jordan

Third Team: Kemba/Lillard/Durant/Millsap/Drummond

Damn, and I always thought that Fratello is a really smart basketball mind...Pau Gasol on the first team, Kemba over Harden, my God.

[Quotatious]

By the way - where would DeAndre Jordan rank among the worst players who ever made an All-NBA 1st team? IMO he's right there with '94 Sprewell and '14 Noah, at the "top". Would be an interesting discussion as far as who was better between those three guys.

[Texas Chuck]

By the way - where would DeAndre Jordan rank among the worst players who ever made an All-NBA 1st team? IMO he's right there with '94 Sprewell and '14 Noah, at the "top". Would be an interesting discussion as far as who was better between those three guys.

I don't think 2014 Noah was that bad of a choice. Injuries have really crippled him the last couple years but that year he played 80 games 12/11/5 with 3 blocks and steals per game while being the best mobile defensive center in the league and the emotional leader of a good Bulls team. He was a top 5 MVP candidate and I didn't bat an eye at it.


I also think Jordan was a lot better this year than most seem to. IMO Doc trying to sell him as Bill Russell in his free agency year and his (in)decision this summer are really influencing how people look at him as opposed to his actual play. He plays every game, does exactly what is asked of him at both ends. Is a great PNR finisher with Paul, is a much better defender than given credit for--he makes strides every year--and does a great job on the glass(I know some postulated he doesn't help team rebounding, but I feel like people miss a lot of context with that.). Team didn't miss a beat without Blake and that only happens with Jordan playing at a very high level.

[Quotatious]

By the way - where would DeAndre Jordan rank among the worst players who ever made an All-NBA 1st team? IMO he's right there with '94 Sprewell and '14 Noah, at the "top". Would be an interesting discussion as far as who was better between those three guys.

I don't think 2014 Noah was that bad of a choice. Injuries have really crippled him the last couple years but that year he played 80 games 12/11/5 with 3 blocks and steals per game while being the best mobile defensive center in the league and the emotional leader of a good Bulls team. He was a top 5 MVP candidate and I didn't bat an eye at it.


I also think Jordan was a lot better this year than most seem to. IMO Doc trying to sell him as Bill Russell in his free agency year and his (in)decision this summer are really influencing how people look at him as opposed to his actual play. He plays every game, does exactly what is asked of him at both ends. Is a great PNR finisher with Paul, is a much better defender than given credit for--he makes strides every year--and does a great job on the glass(I know some postulated he doesn't help team rebounding, but I feel like people miss a lot of context with that.). Team didn't miss a beat without Blake and that only happens with Jordan playing at a very high level.

I'm not saying Noah or Jordan were bad choices for the 1st team (because their competition wasn't very strong), I'm just saying they are definitely among the worst players who ever made the 1st team. When you see Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, even Dwight, making the 1st team, then Noah or DeAndre certainly look like scrubs. That's what I mean.

[Texas Chuck]

All this talk about Donvoan as COY and teh offense continues to be nothing but isolation from Durant and Westbrook. A team with this much talent should be able to get better shots. They are trying to do this the hard way.

[JordansBulls]

Any problem I have with All NBA mostly comes down to reserving a spot for Cs. I hate seeing Cousins rewarded for another cancerous season (and on he barely played more games than Davis), Deandre on first team is too strong, etc. With 2 G and 3 Fs spots it probably would have been more like:

1st: Curry, Westbrook, Kawhi, Lebron, Durant
2nd: Paul, Lillard, Draymond, George, LMA
3rd: Lowry, Klay, Millsap, Davis, Cousins

How did Klay only make 3rd time?

[Doctor MJ]

All this talk about Donvoan as COY and teh offense continues to be nothing but isolation from Durant and Westbrook. A team with this much talent should be able to get better shots. They are trying to do this the hard way.

Well see, the thing is at this point they appear to have surrounded Durant & Westbrook with a supporting cast optimized for these tendencies. It's not my favorite thing to watch, but this may be well quite close to the most you could reasonably expect to get out of the duo so I'm beginning to categorize it more putting square shape in a square hole even when you wish it could fit in a round hole.

[therealbig3]

And yet, for all the hate the Thunder get for their isolation-based offense, and how they really need to have more ball movement and not take so many poor shots...they've been one of the elite offensive teams in the league with both Westbrook and Durant healthy.

2012: +5.2 (2nd)
2013: +6.5 (1st)
2016: +6.7 (2nd)

Maybe we should stop begging for them to do things differently, because what they're doing has led to incredible results...despite the fact that yes, they've had two uber-talents in Durant and Westbrook, but not really all that much talent beyond that.

Really, you can make an excellent argument that the only reason the Thunder haven't won a title yet is because of injuries. They were a DOMINANT team in 2013, and unfortunately, Westbrook got hurt in the playoffs. Westbrook misses half the season in 2014, and they're still around 7 SRS...every reason to believe they'd be around 9 SRS with a fully healthy Westbrook, similar to the year before. And in the playoffs, they lose Ibaka for a couple of games against the Spurs, both losses. Injuries get them again. And in 2015, Durant gets hurt and misses most of the season.

That's 3 straight years with Durant and Westbrook in their absolute prime that were ruined by injuries. When healthy:

2012: 6.44 SRS
2013: 9.15 SRS
2016: 7.09 SRS

I mean, we fawn over the Warriors and Spurs for putting up 10 SRS, and the Thunder broke 9 in 2013, and didn't get nearly the same level of respect. This year, yes, the Warriors and Spurs were rightfully the stories of the year, but the Thunder quietly put up a championship-level season.

For reference sake, the SRS of the last 10 champions:

2015 Warriors: 10.01
2014 Spurs: 8.00
2013 Heat: 7.03
2012 Heat: 5.72
2011 Mavs: 4.41
2010 Lakers: 4.78
2009 Lakers: 7.11
2008 Celtics: 9.30
2007 Spurs: 8.35
2006 Heat: 3.59

The 2013 Thunder were on par with the 2015 Warriors and 2008 Celtics. The 2016 Thunder are up there with anyone except the 2015 Warriors, 2008 Celtics, and maybe the 2007 Spurs.

Obviously, as this current series shows, SRS isn't everything, but the 2008 Celtics for example are the sacred cow of these boards (and I say that as someone with massive respect for that team), and the Thunder performed comparably in the RS, with an offense led by two isolation players, one of them being everything that people here tend to rag on with regards to efficiency and good shot selection.

I think it's time to stop acting like they haven't been a dominant team when healthy. The narrative that exists about them is only there because we didn't think it was possible for an isolation-heavy team, with one of their top 2 players being a high-usage, inefficient shooter, to have major success in the modern NBA, so we've tried to explain away the Thunder's success as unsustainable, and point to their failures as proof of that, while overlooking the fact that by far the biggest reason for their "failures" has been injuries to key players at inopportune times.

[Texas Chuck]

Sure you have 2 offensive players that talentd you are going to have great results based on that. But then you watch the 4th quarter of a huge game and how hard Durant was working to get difficult shots and you ask yourself why. And no I don't believe that this is the only option for a Durant/Westbrook team. It is AN option because of their immense talent, but they could do better.

[therealbig3]

Sure you have 2 offensive players that talentd you are going to have great results based on that. But then you watch the 4th quarter of a huge game and how hard Durant was working to get difficult shots and you ask yourself why. And no I don't believe that this is the only option for a Durant/Westbrook team. It is AN option because of their immense talent, but they could do better.

What is that last sentence based on? They've performed historically well doing what they're currently doing.

Their 4th quarter strategies successfully eliminated a 67 win Spurs team that had a historic season, and currently have a 73 win Warriors team that had THE historic season on the ropes. Both of these teams are what people have pointed to as the prime examples of how to play basketball, while denigrating how the Thunder play, but it's the Thunder that have outplayed them when it really matters.

[therealbig3]

Like, for example, I strongly believe that this current Thunder team might be even better than the 2013 team, because the role players seem to be stepping up more, and while there may be a slight decline in KD's game, there's been a clear improvement in Westbrook's. And that was a 9 SRS team. I think if people knew that the Thunder were "actually" a 9-10 SRS team, nobody would have been all that surprised at the Thunder possibly winning the series. Similar to how most people wouldn't have considered it a shock if SA had beaten GS in a series, since they were a dominant team too.

[lorak]

2 quick Adams' fouls at the beginning and overall it looked like finally Warriors got calls in their favor (0.365 FT/FGA), while Thunder not so much (0.220) and result was drastically different than in previous 2 games.

[cpower]

2 quick Adams' fouls at the beginning and overall it looked like finally Warriors got calls in their favor (0.365 FT/FGA), while Thunder not so much (0.220) and result was drastically different than in previous 2 games.

what a great way to analyze game. The warrriors got 10 FT in last min when OKC wanted to foul them intentionally...

[RSCD3_]

All this talk about Donvoan as COY and teh offense continues to be nothing but isolation from Durant and Westbrook. A team with this much talent should be able to get better shots. They are trying to do this the hard way.

Well see, the thing is at this point they appear to have surrounded Durant & Westbrook with a supporting cast optimized for these tendencies. It's not my favorite thing to watch, but this may be well quite close to the most you could reasonably expect to get out of the duo so I'm beginning to categorize it more putting square shape in a square hole even when you wish it could fit in a round hole.

Doc how much do you consider the possibility of kevin durant and westbrook not being that improved from the Regular season but merely all the role players are playing at near top form, I kind of lean in this direction, westbrook and kd have been impressive just like they were in the RS but I dont feel they jumped up any full gears, but OKC just looks so much more together on defense and they are using their strengths on offense.

[Doctor MJ]

All this talk about Donvoan as COY and teh offense continues to be nothing but isolation from Durant and Westbrook. A team with this much talent should be able to get better shots. They are trying to do this the hard way.

Well see, the thing is at this point they appear to have surrounded Durant & Westbrook with a supporting cast optimized for these tendencies. It's not my favorite thing to watch, but this may be well quite close to the most you could reasonably expect to get out of the duo so I'm beginning to categorize it more putting square shape in a square hole even when you wish it could fit in a round hole.

Doc how much do you consider the possibility of kevin durant and westbrook not being that improved from the Regular season but merely all the role players are playing at near top form, I kind of lean in this direction, westbrook and kd have been impressive just like they were in the RS but I dont feel they jumped up any full gears, but OKC just looks so much more together on defense and they are using their strengths on offense.

Sounds about right.

From a POY comparison perspective, I don't think what either Durant or Westbrook is doing is as impressive as what we saw Curry do in the regular season, and I think Curry's issues have a lot to do with just finding his rhythm after time away rather than just the matchup.

However, as a major Westbrook skeptic, what I have to acknowledge is that while the OKC players and coach deserve to be lauded for what they are doing, nothing about it seems like something miraculous. In other words, with basically ordinary good team design and coaching along with good health, it seems like OKC's duo could have been winning championships a while ago, and that means I need to seriously consider whether (and to what degree) I've held things against Westbrook that really don't hold up to further scrutiny.

[cpower]

All this talk about Donvoan as COY and teh offense continues to be nothing but isolation from Durant and Westbrook. A team with this much talent should be able to get better shots. They are trying to do this the hard way.

Well see, the thing is at this point they appear to have surrounded Durant & Westbrook with a supporting cast optimized for these tendencies. It's not my favorite thing to watch, but this may be well quite close to the most you could reasonably expect to get out of the duo so I'm beginning to categorize it more putting square shape in a square hole even when you wish it could fit in a round hole.

Doc how much do you consider the possibility of kevin durant and westbrook not being that improved from the Regular season but merely all the role players are playing at near top form, I kind of lean in this direction, westbrook and kd have been impressive just like they were in the RS but I dont feel they jumped up any full gears, but OKC just looks so much more together on defense and they are using their strengths on offense.

it's the correct direction. the OKC role players are playing at a higher level and warriors role players are playing at a much lower level. And then you have Draymond Green, who is completely useless in some of the games (11 ppg on 44%TS and 4 TOs for the series)
Curry is a bit worse than his RS form but even he was as good as his RS form, it would not have changed a thing. We got blown out by 20 + multiple times.

[ceiling raiser]

2 quick Adams' fouls at the beginning and overall it looked like finally Warriors got calls in their favor (0.365 FT/FGA), while Thunder not so much (0.220) and result was drastically different than in previous 2 games.

Do you think GS can win game 6 with the same gameplan from last night? If not what changes do they need to make?

[Doctor MJ]

2 quick Adams' fouls at the beginning and overall it looked like finally Warriors got calls in their favor (0.365 FT/FGA), while Thunder not so much (0.220) and result was drastically different than in previous 2 games.

Do you think GS can win game 6 with the same gameplan from last night? If not what changes do they need to make?

I think that realistically Golden State probably loses Game 6 unless they can use the importance of the game to clear away their lingering hesitancies. Curry in particular needs to go into this game with the mentality that his team doesn't get any further without him getting into that zone.

[PaulieWal]

I think it's very fascinating that game 6 is the first game OKC is the favorite in by a mere 2 points (for now). The first 5 games all had GSW as the favorite. Win or lose this series, this is a phenomenal run by OKC. Part of me wants to see the underdog win badly and take down the 73 win giant but last night it looked like Curry/Green figured out some stuff.

Specifically I think GSW figured out that they have to play a bit slower and Igoudala has to handle the ball more.

[lorak]

2 quick Adams' fouls at the beginning and overall it looked like finally Warriors got calls in their favor (0.365 FT/FGA), while Thunder not so much (0.220) and result was drastically different than in previous 2 games.

what a great way to analyze game. The warrriors got 10 FT in last min when OKC wanted to foul them intentionally...

Even without last minute it's 0.271 - more than in any previous game. And things like quick two Adams' fouls didn't happen in last minute...