Kyrie Irving would rather play somewhere else

[PandaKidd]

...we would have beaten the Cavs if Love and Irving played. Their biggest weakness was defensively at the 1 and 4. Our best offensive players were at the 1-4. I [can't*] believe you have watched a 1-4 pick and roll against the Cavs and think we wouldn't have been better off with their better offensive team playing versus the elite defensive squad they were able to put out there.

It's nice to see that others get it.

You all saw on Saturday night why I said I wouldn't mind facing Cleveland in the playoffs with a healthy Kyrie and Love...Kyrie is a non-factor all the time and Love is a non-factor when Kyrie is playing.

So I mentioned a few weeks back that we might gain more clarity on this topic with time...

Ummm...Have we?

Serious question. I couldn't fathom that we thought that after being swept by LeBron and backups...that we'd fair better against LeBron and All Stars.

With 11 straight losses, under two different rookie Head Coaches, is it fair to acknowledge that CLE is simply a better team than ours? Even with a pair of limited defenders playing heavy minutes.

Nah bro, no clarity, KI is trash, Love is a bum. Korver > JR SMITH

LOL

I mean people see what they want to see. KI is just much more talented than any PG we have, period. Love is still REALLY REALLY good.

[PandaKidd]

Kyrie isn't elite talent. For the money he makes and what you would have to give up for a injury prone, no defense playing, consistent loser as the alpha dog on his team.

Good times. Wave Hi to KI in the Finals.

[PandaKidd]

KI last 5 games:
23.2PPG, 55% from 3pt rang, 48% FG , 6AST

Not Elite doe

[HMFFL]

Part of me believe this the drama was made up by the Cleveland players so they could gain some attention.
Golden State had been getting it all at the time.
I could be wrong, but I expect Kyrie to be a Cav long-term.

[Rip2137]

You know, sometimes you guys really piss me off trying to take victory laps and ignoring things that are written right before you.

No one, NO ONE said that Kyrie Irving wasn't more talented than any point guard we had. NO ONE(okay, maybe someone might have in the multiple pages we had, but I don't believe anyone said that). Talent was never the question here.

What was said is that 1: he gives up what he gets. That is STILL true. and 2: He can't be the lead guy on a winning team.

So how in the blue hell is he being 2nd banana on a team that is winning magically changing all of that? There was nothing to be proven in this series. Kyrie can score a lot of points and take games over. Yes...we knew that. He also gave up big games to the opposing point guard in 3 of the 4 games, and the coach had to switch better defenders on his man in those games because he couldn't slow them down.

Kyrie is not attached to Lebron. Kyrie without someone else to be the lead dog has consistently been a loser. He is a #2. Does that in anyway change the fact that our guards are at best #3's? No. But the assertion that if you have Kyrie Irving as your 20 million plus #1 and build around him, success will follow is still wrong in my eyes, wrong in histories eyes and debatable at best. The point is, when point guards way less talented than him basically play him even more nights than not, he isn't elite. Guys will have big games, sure, but CONSISTANTLY the opposing guards play him even and have since he came in the league.

But the difference between the Cavs winning 30 games and winning 50 was LeBron, not Kyrie. For Christ sake, remember a few years back when people thought Norris Cole, Mario Chalmers and Bobbie Gibson were actually solid point guard? If he makes guys who should barely be in the league look solid, a hyper talented guy like Kyrie is going to look amazing. But I will state the point that was made 1000 times in here and you chose to ignore everytime, he isn't a guy that can LEAD a successful team.

[PandaKidd]

NEWSFLASH: Lebron James is good at basketball? LOL

Again, ill just leave you with this:
KI last 5 games:
23.2PPG, 55% from 3pt rang, 48% FG , 6AST

Not Elite doe

[PandaKidd]

Also i dont think anyone said anything about building a team around KI by himself. It was a mere, would you want to get him, and people on this board said no, that he was a scrub, that he was Jamaal Crawford, that he was a bum.

Clearly, not the case.

[Jamaaliver]

Our hometown paper running an AP story singing Kyrie's praises:

The kid has been brilliant in his second postseason.

Irving has outplayed a group of talented point guards who haven't been able to stay with him or stop him. He has already left...Atlanta's Dennis Schroder and Jeff Teague in his wake, and Kyle Lowry will become Irving's latest victim on his tornadic path back to the NBA Finals.

Part of Lowry's struggles can be traced to having to deal with Irving on the defensive end.

One of four elite guards in the NBA's final four, Irving has taken the scoring burden off James. He's averaging a team-leading 24.7 points per game and at times he's Cleveland's first offensive option, a role James has owned but is now willing to share with his 24-year-old teammate.

The relationship between James and Irving is an interesting study, and it has taken time for them to get to this point. The stars haven't always been aligned during their two seasons together, but they're in sync now — a devastating 1-2 punch — and maybe on the verge of a championship.

Here

[PandaKidd]

NOT ELITE DOE

[Geaux_Hawks]

NEWSFLASH: Lebron James is good at basketball? LOL

Again, ill just leave you with this:
KI last 5 games:
23.2PPG, 55% from 3pt rang, 48% FG , 6AST

Not Elite doe

FWIW, you're using a very small sample size to make him look elite, and not even including defense into the conversation.. With that said He doesn't have to do anything, but score, and he gets plenty of open looks due to Lebron collapsing a defense.

Same could be said about his assist number. Once Lebron forces the defense to collapse, the Cavs play hot potato until they find the best look.

Then you have the defensive side of the ball, where he's average on his best days. If you hate James Harden's matador defense, then you must be irate at KI. He's an even more putrid defender. For all the flack that Harden gets, he at least shows some signs of life as a defender at times according to his DWS and DBPM.

[PandaKidd]

How about the entire post season?
24.7 ppg , 5AST , 52% 3pt , 49% FG

you guys want to keep making excuses thats on you. KI is elite, period. He plays with Lebron and that makes him better? DUH? He was still putting up these numbers when Bron wasnt there, you guys just dont want to admit it.

[Geaux_Hawks]

How about the entire post season?
24.7 ppg , 5AST , 52% 3pt , 49% FG

you guys want to keep making excuses thats on you. KI is elite, period. He plays with Lebron and that makes him better? DUH? He was still putting up these numbers when Bron wasnt there, you guys just dont want to admit it.

Again, he's playing next to Lebron and Love. He's no where near anybody's prime focus.

Even if we ignore that, how farfetched would it be to not think that this is just a hot run? Last post season he shot 43% from the field, and scored 19 PPG with 4 APG. Wouldn't call that elite. During the regular season, he shot an abysmal 31% from 3, and 45% from the field.

I will go out and say the 31% is probably not the norm, but 52% from 3 is definitely not sustainable either, and it's inflating his FG%. His career TS% doesn't scream efficient scorer either. He's still a negative on the defensive end, something you didn't address. I just don't get the whole elite PG thing.

I would easily take John Wall's broken jumper over KI defense.

[PandaKidd]

Kyrie is better than Love.

I just think its funny, that despite his obvious domination this postseason, his averages, his accolades, that you guys harp on HERP DERP HE CANT DEFEND DOE.

You know who can defend? Kawahi Leonard. ANd he could BUY A BASKET in that closeout game vs OKC. Sometimes guys, OFFENSE > DEFENSE. Defense can be taught, defense can be a team effort.

Completely dismissing how ELITE KI is because you want to act like some dumb metric like DEFENSIVE WIN SHARES or some other bull just shows how attached to mediocrity the Hawks fanbase is IMO

[Geaux_Hawks]

You're missing the point. Toss up between KI and Teague? I take Irving without a doubt. Doesn't mean KI is elite overall. Stephon Marbury, Baron Davis, and Steve Francis could score points, but they were never considered elite.

Before Lebron and Love arrived, Irving was a career loser. Team never even sniffed the playoffs in a weak Eastern conference. Now he's considered an elite PG?? All because he can score the basketball better since Lebron/Love are attracting attention away from him??

Irving's never even been considered to be the best at his position compared to Love, and now he's a better player than Love because Love is forced to be a jump shooter??

You wanna talk about elite, then let's talk about Damian Lillard. He's not that great of a defender either, but his scoring and everything else he does makes an impact. He literally wielded his team into the playoffs. Put them on his back and carried them. When has Irving done anything of that nature?

[Jamaaliver]

Before Lebron and Love arrived, Irving was a career loser.

Can you really be considered a 'career loser' at age 22? Kyrie played for losing teams his first three seasons. So did Steph Curry. So did DeMarcus Cousins.

Anyway...here's another national article on Kyrie, as his Cavs attempt to clinch their second straight Conference Title:



One of the great benefits of having players like LeBron James and Kyrie Irving on the same team is that they centralize an offense’s means of production, affording the Cavs the opportunity to play rebounders or defenders or spot-up shooters without undue burden.

...for some 10 minutes a game, Irving is given control without caveat. It’s vital that Cleveland sustains while James rests. In the playoffs thus far, Irving’s field-goal attempts nearly double when James checks out of the game...He turns hyper-aggressive in the pick-and-roll by lunging into every open pocket.

...like so many great ball handlers before him, Irving can sometimes mistake his ability to dribble out of difficult situations as a mandate to do so...Irving has largely operated within his lineup-dependent bounds. The Irving who plays with James is a hyper-efficient counter driver and deadly shooter from three-point range (52.7% in the playoffs). The Irving who plays without him is free to indulge.

The ongoing battle lies in the balance of Irving’s judgment. Cleveland asks Irving to compartmentalize his greatest singular talent on a nightly basis for the sake of a greater good. Some nights demand more of a negotiation than others. Yet more and more, the Cavs are growing comfortable with their allowance for Irving to make certain stretches his own. Here

[Geaux_Hawks]

Before Lebron and Love arrived, Irving was a career loser.

Can you really be considered a 'career loser' at age 22? Kyrie played for losing teams his first three seasons. So did Steph Curry. So did DeMarcus Cousins.

Anyway...here's another national article on Kyrie, as his Cavs attempt to clinch their second straight Conference Title:



One of the great benefits of having players like LeBron James and Kyrie Irving on the same team is that they centralize an offense’s means of production, affording the Cavs the opportunity to play rebounders or defenders or spot-up shooters without undue burden.

...for some 10 minutes a game, Irving is given control without caveat. It’s vital that Cleveland sustains while James rests. In the playoffs thus far, Irving’s field-goal attempts nearly double when James checks out of the game...He turns hyper-aggressive in the pick-and-roll by lunging into every open pocket.

...like so many great ball handlers before him, Irving can sometimes mistake his ability to dribble out of difficult situations as a mandate to do so...Irving has largely operated within his lineup-dependent bounds. The Irving who plays with James is a hyper-efficient counter driver and deadly shooter from three-point range (52.7% in the playoffs). The Irving who plays without him is free to indulge.

The ongoing battle lies in the balance of Irving’s judgment. Cleveland asks Irving to compartmentalize his greatest singular talent on a nightly basis for the sake of a greater good. Some nights demand more of a negotiation than others. Yet more and more, the Cavs are growing comfortable with their allowance for Irving to make certain stretches his own. Here

The Warriors showed signs of getting better every year Curry had been there. The one year they fell off, he was hit hard by the injury bug. The very next year, they won 47 games, and took the SAS to 6 games, who went on to almost win the Finals.

Cousins is just in a messy situation. There's so much off the court stuff going on that's insane that the King's are still in Sacramento. I think there's a reason Cousins is considered the best center in the league. Lot's of advanced stats show why he is so important to the Kings. Without him, they're probably picking first just like the Cavs have been doing.

The only benefit of the doubt I could possibly give Irving is that maybe management was preparing for Lebron to eventually return. Even then, you would think a top PG would keep his team away from the top pick every year. I mean Lilliard's Blazers were supposed to be a top 5 lottery team and they made the playoffs with a winning record. Anthony Davis is another guy who has taken his team to a playoff appearance. Neither of those guys relies on a Lebron or Love to make the playoffs.

KI is a second fiddle kind of guy, and you're article basically shows that.

[Jamaaliver]

KI is a second fiddle kind of guy, and you're article basically shows that.

It's just weird to hear people write off a guy for not carrying his team as a 19, 20, 21 year old.

But other 20, 21, 22 year olds get the benefit of the doubt...despite all being recognized as being elite young talents.

Perception goes a long way towards how we define players. KI was subjected to 4 coaches in 5 years. An impatient owner and inept GM.

DeMarcus seems to get a pass because of this (and rightfully so)...but KI has his entire career defined before he's legally old enough to buy alcohol?


It's just weird to see a guy named All Star, All NBA, FIBA MVP, lead his team in scoring on the top playoff team in the East...before age 25. And get lambasted for it.

[Jamaaliver]

Fun fact:

Apparently Jeff Teague's dad and Kyrie's dad both played college ball together at Boston College.

Crazy....

Shawn Teague played point guard for Rick Pitino at Boston University.

Shawn's backcourt mate at Boston University was a gunner named Drederick Irving, who played professionally in Australia, where he had a baby boy named Kyrie. When the family settled in New Jersey, Drederick was as tough on Kyrie as Shawn was on Jeff, putting him through Mikan drills in the backyard and teaching him how to spin layups off a cracked backboard.

[Geaux_Hawks]

KI is a second fiddle kind of guy, and you're article basically shows that.

It's just weird to hear people write off a guy for not carrying his team as a 19, 20, 21 year old.

But other 20, 21, 22 year olds get the benefit of the doubt...despite all being recognized as being elite young talents.

Perception goes a long way towards how we define players. KI was subjected to 4 coaches in 5 years. An impatient owner and inept GM.

DeMarcus seems to get a pass because of this (and rightfully so)...but KI has his entire career defined before he's legally old enough to buy alcohol?


It's just weird to see a guy named All Star, All NBA, FIBA MVP, lead his team in scoring on the top playoff team in the East...before age 25. And get lambasted for it.

Valid points indeed, but is Cousins not the best center in the league? Raw numbers alone would say he definitely is. We haven't seen a big man post 27-11 since probably Shaq. Defensively, he's become one of the better defenders at the 5. He's a more than capable passer as well. Would it be far-fetched at all to say he is a top 10 player in the league despite his teams performance, which is due to the line-up being completely discombobulated?

I'm not here to say that KI isn't a quality player. I just think elite player is a bit much for him. He's thriving off of the one thing that he is good at, and the league is set up for him to do so. He can score without a doubt, but what else can he really do? He's known to be a selfish player even when playing with Lebron and Love. His defense isn't spectacular at all. The article you posted basically said that he's only good to keep the scoring alive once Lebron leaves the court, and he has free reign to do whatever while Lebron isn't in the game. You ever noticed how teams made runs while KI was free to do whatever?

[ATLHawksfan21]

Typical game from the all-time great Kyrie last night.

The Cavs open the game with trying to hide Kyrie on Barnes and Barnes starts off hot and makes 4 of his first 5 shots. They then put him on Livingston and Livingston has his best game in a decade. All the while, Kyrie goes 1-9 on shots he attempted where he brought the ball up and never made a single pass (0-6 on those shots when Lebron was on the floor). Dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, that's all Kyrie does. All those fancy moves and all it gets him is an off-balance fadeaway jumper unless he gets lucky and the defender bails him out and sends him to the FT line.

26 pts on 22 shots while playing horrendous, and I do mean horrendous defense, is not the formula for a franchise player if you want to win a championship.