Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez
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Kerrsed wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:Kerrsed wrote:A high risk "Serviceable role player" is seriously the last thing im looking for when drafting at #4. Im either looking for a guaranteed starter or a high risk high reward player. Serviceable role player? That describes Dudley and PJ Tucker.
I've been trying to wrap my head around why I'm against Bender at #4 and I think you've summed it up perfectly. I don't see star potential, he's not being projected as a star player and he's also a very high risk pick.
I just can't balance the risk and reward for taking Bender this high.
I mean when the guy on our board that has probably seen Bender the most (MrTwister) and watched the Euroleague the most, calls him a serviceable role player and high risk, that really says something. That scares me. I was actually starting to warm up to the idea of Bender (And REALLY thinking of the idea of a Bender/Noel pairing), but there are just way too many questions.
Kerrsed wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:Kerrsed wrote:A high risk "Serviceable role player" is seriously the last thing im looking for when drafting at #4. Im either looking for a guaranteed starter or a high risk high reward player. Serviceable role player? That describes Dudley and PJ Tucker.
I've been trying to wrap my head around why I'm against Bender at #4 and I think you've summed it up perfectly. I don't see star potential, he's not being projected as a star player and he's also a very high risk pick.
I just can't balance the risk and reward for taking Bender this high.
I mean when the guy on our board that has probably seen Bender the most (MrTwister) and watched the Euroleague the most, calls him a serviceable role player and high risk, that really says something. That scares me. I was actually starting to warm up to the idea of Bender (And REALLY thinking of the idea of a Bender/Noel pairing), but there are just way too many questions.
Dominater wrote:Damn Cactus jack takin over
MrMiyagi wrote:Kerrsed wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:I've been trying to wrap my head around why I'm against Bender at #4 and I think you've summed it up perfectly. I don't see star potential, he's not being projected as a star player and he's also a very high risk pick.
I just can't balance the risk and reward for taking Bender this high.
I mean when the guy on our board that has probably seen Bender the most (MrTwister) and watched the Euroleague the most, calls him a serviceable role player and high risk, that really says something. That scares me. I was actually starting to warm up to the idea of Bender (And REALLY thinking of the idea of a Bender/Noel pairing), but there are just way too many questions.
Yeah, there are just too many bigs that are in a similar mold of "stretch big" that it doesn't make sense to reach for one at 4. We are the only team in the top 5 considering Bender, and if we pass, how far does he fall?
bwgood77 wrote:NavLDO wrote:Krush32 wrote:
Sabonis knows how to box out so no. You guys are thinking too much about numbers. Watch them play and you will see. Sabonis plays bigger than he is by being physical and eating up space. Chriss is not very physical inside and doesnt box out everytime.
Sorry in advance--another lengthy post, but just skimming through will be enough to get the points I'm making...so with that said...
Good point. I agree. Sabonis makes up for his deficiencies, while Chriss just needs some coaching in that area. But to rule him out as a late lotto pick based upon his defensive shortcomings that can be coached up, when others undeservedly are ranked much higher at other positions, that have had time to develop their skill, and have not over 3+ years, is short-sided, IMO. I noticed how you chose not to address Dunn and his weaknesses, which are far more pronounced.
But back to Sabonis...what was his 3PT/40 his freshman season as compared to Chriss? 0.0 vs 2.8
How about Steals and Blocks per 40? 0.6 and 0.8 vs 1.5 and 2.6 But I guess Steals and Blocks are not considered "Defense" ??
But hey, let's judge Chriss on his 'poor defense' because his Defensive Rebounds are low, eh?
My issue isn't that Chriss is some how a polished, finished prospect, but there is A LOT of upside there...where's that upside with Dunn? My issue is denigrating Chriss for being a late lotto consideration, yet completely negating a top 5 prospect that has no business being there based upon over 3 years of consistently 'below-average' production. Why can Brown be considered a top 5 SF prospect, with a WS/40 of 4.5, compared to Chriss with an 8.7? OR a TS and eFG of .52 and .47 when Chriss' is .59 and .56? Or as a SF, having an even WORSE PPR of -6.47 compared to Chriss' -6.11? Or a worse FT% of 65.4% compared to Chriss' 68.5%? Why does Brown have "upside" as a top 5 pick, yet Chriss, as a late-lotto doesn't?
At least Chriss, as pointed out by saintEscaton, has positional versatility to play SF, yet Brown, shows NO possibility of playing SG.
If you read my post a few pages back about my thoughts on over-and-under-drafted prospects, I believe Sabonis will be under-drafted, if ONLY because his Wingspan is less than ideal, and he has limited range. But his production, and yes, his boxing out capability is great, and think he'll do well in the league. I only brought up Sabonis to prove a point; prospects can overcome deficiencies, ESPECIALLY those that are very young, with sub-optimal coaching.
But overall, I think if one is going to discount Chriss based upon one stat, yet are perfectly fine with others ranked higher with bigger issues, should really consider these other prospects and their issues, because quite frankly, Chriss' weaknesses pale in comparison to these others...
...then my favorite comment on how Chriss' measurements of Standing Reach of 8'9", Wingspan of 7' .25" at a height of 6'10" was 'unworthy' of being a PF, yet the #1 overall prospect, Simmons, same height, same Wingspan, but magically with a 3.5" advantage in Standing Reach some how makes sense. And let's look at another, Skal Labissierre: Height-6'11.75", Wingspan-7'2.5", Standing Reach-8'9.5"??? Are you kidding me? There's a reason why there's an ongoing investigation into these measurements. I guess Skal will have to be a SF as well, with Simmons...
...and speaking of Skal, let's look at his and Brown's RSCI--Brown RSCI=3, Skal-RSCI=2 vs Chriss' of 56, so rather than having an 'easy road' to be a lotto pick, Chriss had to earn his way there. He didn't get the benefit of the doubt of coming in with such a high RSCI; so based upon these facts, Skal and Brown deserve to be ranked higher (as they are) and get a 'pass' from scrutiny on this forum, but not Chriss...no...not the guy who outperformed Skal in, firstly, even getting on the court (24 vs 15 MPG), but then, WS/40--8.7 vs 6.1, EFF/40--23.4 vs 20.0; A/TO--.38 vs .33; TS and eFG%--.59 and .56 vs .54 and .52; 3PT%--35.7% vs 0%; 2PT%--57% vs 52.1%; Stls/40-- 1.5 vs .6; PFs/40--6.5 vs 7.6 (both very poor numbers); FT%--68.5% vs 66.1%; Total Rebounding % of team--13.5% vs 8.1%; Pts per Poss--1.22 vs 1.09
Skal has his benefits, to be sure--Blks/40--4.2 to 2.6 (yet both very good numbers); Def Reb/40--5.4 vs 4.6 (both poor numbers); PPR-- -4.54 vs -6.11 (bot poor numbers)
So on and so forth. But honestly, I spent all this time posting all this useless information, to make a couple of points:
Chriss is ranked 11th overall (RSCI 56), as compared to:
Dunn-4th (RSCI 20)
Brown-5th (RSCI 3)
Skal-9th (RSCI 2)
I value the fact that Chriss impressed enough this year to open eyes from an RSCI of 56, as did Deyonta Davis (RSCI 28), as did Jamal Murray (RSCI 45), as did Denzel Valentine (RSCI 96), and as did Buddy Hield (RSCI 111) and to be potential lotto picks after one year, yet both PFs are ranked below the above 3, even when 'out-producing' them this last season. Why??
Now Hield scares me as being a 'one-hit-wonder', and he has atrocious PPR and AT/O for a Guard, that only regressed from season to season. He had a similar to Dunn, 34ish% 3PT% before this season. So while I applaud Hield, he's a guy you need to dig a little deeper than just this season, and will likely be over-drafted based upon that one season.
But I digress...I know it looks like I'm 'banging the table' for Chriss, but I'm really not; I'm just saying don't discount an 18 YO for having poor defensive rebounding numbers, and sorry, I disagree; this is something that can be coached up in the NBA.
But yes, I'd be tempted to take Chriss over Dunn, Brown, Hield, or Skal @ 4, but I also feel that Brown's and Skal's issues CAN be fixed at the next level (Dunn and Hield are likely you get what you see). And I don't believe in taking Chriss off our board because of one defensive stat, or a poor PPR, or a BS measurement that is CLEARLY inaccurate. His range, his athleticism, his shot blocking, and his TS% are excellent.
What would you rather have: another SG, one who is a 22YO Senior with a -4.85 PPR or an 18YO PF with a -6.11 PPR? A 22YO PG with a career 69% FT% or a 19YO PF with a 68.5% FT%? A SF with a 48% 2PT% and 28% 3PT%, or a PF with a 57% 2PT% ad 3PT% of 35%, with similar upside and athleticism? I believe these to be valid questions/concerns, and I hope McD is paying attention, and is willing to look beyond on defensive stat, and look at others like Steals and Blocks.
Why do you keep bringing up Dunn? Almost every person you are responding to didn't even mention him in their post. I think there is likely a much better chance we draft Murray or Brown than Dunn. I mean you've clearly made your case against Dunn (and very good arguments), but I think outside of you he is one of the top prospects talked about least over the last few pages.
BleedGreen1989 wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:Kerrsed wrote:
I mean when the guy on our board that has probably seen Bender the most (MrTwister) and watched the Euroleague the most, calls him a serviceable role player and high risk, that really says something. That scares me. I was actually starting to warm up to the idea of Bender (And REALLY thinking of the idea of a Bender/Noel pairing), but there are just way too many questions.
Yeah, there are just too many bigs that are in a similar mold of "stretch big" that it doesn't make sense to reach for one at 4. We are the only team in the top 5 considering Bender, and if we pass, how far does he fall?
I'm sure BOS is strongly considering Bender.
Dominater wrote:Damn Cactus jack takin over
Cactus Jack wrote:BleedGreen1989 wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:Yeah, there are just too many bigs that are in a similar mold of "stretch big" that it doesn't make sense to reach for one at 4. We are the only team in the top 5 considering Bender, and if we pass, how far does he fall?
I'm sure BOS is strongly considering Bender.
That's the rumor. What do you think Ainge does at 3?
Kerrsed wrote:A high risk "Serviceable role player" is seriously the last thing im looking for when drafting at #4. Im either looking for a guaranteed starter or a high risk high reward player. Serviceable role player? That describes Dudley and PJ Tucker.
lilfishi22 wrote:Kerrsed wrote:A high risk "Serviceable role player" is seriously the last thing im looking for when drafting at #4. Im either looking for a guaranteed starter or a high risk high reward player. Serviceable role player? That describes Dudley and PJ Tucker.
I've been trying to wrap my head around why I'm against Bender at #4 and I think you've summed it up perfectly. I don't see star potential, he's not being projected as a star player and he's also a very high risk pick.
I just can't balance the risk and reward for taking Bender this high.
bwgood77 wrote:Kerrsed wrote:A high risk "Serviceable role player" is seriously the last thing im looking for when drafting at #4. Im either looking for a guaranteed starter or a high risk high reward player. Serviceable role player? That describes Dudley and PJ Tucker.
There are no guaranteed starters, particularly after the top 2. Unfortunately this draft is weak, particularly at the top after the top 2 and at our biggest position of need.
I thought you liked Brown btw. He is far from a guaranteed starter.
But Bender (I assume you are talking about him) that is two poster's assessment here while one of them added "with upside and could be amazing weapon if used and developed properly".
Lets say you do still want Brown. I'd just rather have a guy who may end up being a taller, skinnier version of Draymond Green (opinion of expert) than a guy who MIGHT end up being a guy like Michael Kidd Gilchrist if he reaches full potential.
Zelaznyrules wrote:I think some are putting too much emphasis on the "serviceable role player" comment by Mr Twister. That entire sentence was a little confusing. I don't want to put words in his mouth but the way I translated his comment was that Bender will likely be a serviceable role player when he enters the league but has the potential to be much more if used and coached correctly. I don't believe he was writing his career off as no more than a role player.
bwgood77 wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:Kerrsed wrote:A high risk "Serviceable role player" is seriously the last thing im looking for when drafting at #4. Im either looking for a guaranteed starter or a high risk high reward player. Serviceable role player? That describes Dudley and PJ Tucker.
I've been trying to wrap my head around why I'm against Bender at #4 and I think you've summed it up perfectly. I don't see star potential, he's not being projected as a star player and he's also a very high risk pick.
I just can't balance the risk and reward for taking Bender this high.
Who did you vote for? I haven't really seen anyone describe him as a role player until a couple of posters today. I think he's an extremely raw prospect with enormous upside. At least that seems to be consensus of draft experts.
MrMiyagi wrote:Kerrsed wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:I've been trying to wrap my head around why I'm against Bender at #4 and I think you've summed it up perfectly. I don't see star potential, he's not being projected as a star player and he's also a very high risk pick.
I just can't balance the risk and reward for taking Bender this high.
I mean when the guy on our board that has probably seen Bender the most (MrTwister) and watched the Euroleague the most, calls him a serviceable role player and high risk, that really says something. That scares me. I was actually starting to warm up to the idea of Bender (And REALLY thinking of the idea of a Bender/Noel pairing), but there are just way too many questions.
Yeah, there are just too many bigs that are in a similar mold of "stretch big" that it doesn't make sense to reach for one at 4. We are the only team in the top 5 considering Bender, and if we pass, how far does he fall?
Sometimes the mountain travels to see Muhammad, which explains where Celtics president of basketball operations Danny Ainge and director of player personnel Austin Ainge find themselves this weekend.
The Ainges will watch Dragan Bender today and tomorrow in practices for Maccabi Tel Aviv. Bender, an 18-year-old Croatian, is one of the favorites to be taken by the Celtics with the third pick in the NBA draft on June 23.
Bender is a 7-foot point forward who, because of his age, comes off the bench for Maccabi Tel Aviv. The team just completed a three-game first-round playoff sweep of league rival Bnei Herzliya with an 81-54 blowout win in Tel Aviv. Bender’s team doesn’t play again until June 6, so the Ainges won’t see Bender play in a game.
Instead, their ongoing evaluation will be restricted to practices. As is typical of many young prospects who play for high-level European competition, Bender doesn’t start. He scored 11 points in the most recent game on 5-for-11 shooting, including 1-for-6 from 3-point range, in 23 minutes.
Bender’s numbers don’t jump off the page, but as Austin Ainge stressed in a recent interview, games aren’t always the best measure of young European prospects. Bender’s more telling moments have come in junior national competition and the camps sponsored in recent years by the NBA and sneaker companies.
Bender still is considered a skilled big man who projects as a dangerous 3-point shooter — in other words, as the kind of so-called stretch 4 currently in vogue in the NBA. He is also extremely skinny, and in need of serious weight training once he reaches the NBA.
Danny Ainge took another trip to Croatia earlier this week to watch center Ante Zizic, who may be receiving consideration from the Celtics with the 23rd pick in the draft.
MrMiyagi wrote:bwgood77 wrote:Kerrsed wrote:A high risk "Serviceable role player" is seriously the last thing im looking for when drafting at #4. Im either looking for a guaranteed starter or a high risk high reward player. Serviceable role player? That describes Dudley and PJ Tucker.
There are no guaranteed starters, particularly after the top 2. Unfortunately this draft is weak, particularly at the top after the top 2 and at our biggest position of need.
I thought you liked Brown btw. He is far from a guaranteed starter.
But Bender (I assume you are talking about him) that is two poster's assessment here while one of them added "with upside and could be amazing weapon if used and developed properly".
Lets say you do still want Brown. I'd just rather have a guy who may end up being a taller, skinnier version of Draymond Green (opinion of expert) than a guy who MIGHT end up being a guy like Michael Kidd Gilchrist if he reaches full potential.
I have no idea where anyone jumps to Draymond from Bender..... I still haven't seen any evidence of passing or defense.
bwgood77 wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:bwgood77 wrote:
There are no guaranteed starters, particularly after the top 2. Unfortunately this draft is weak, particularly at the top after the top 2 and at our biggest position of need.
I thought you liked Brown btw. He is far from a guaranteed starter.
But Bender (I assume you are talking about him) that is two poster's assessment here while one of them added "with upside and could be amazing weapon if used and developed properly".
Lets say you do still want Brown. I'd just rather have a guy who may end up being a taller, skinnier version of Draymond Green (opinion of expert) than a guy who MIGHT end up being a guy like Michael Kidd Gilchrist if he reaches full potential.
I have no idea where anyone jumps to Draymond from Bender..... I still haven't seen any evidence of passing or defense.
Well two of his strengths mentioned are perimeter defense and passing. Someone posted a video not too long ago that showed some great passes (some of them no look) for his age.
He's obviously rated in this draft class a lot higher than Draymond was in his though, but Draymond was more ready to contribute more immediately.
AtheJ415 wrote:bwgood77 wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:I have no idea where anyone jumps to Draymond from Bender..... I still haven't seen any evidence of passing or defense.
Well two of his strengths mentioned are perimeter defense and passing. Someone posted a video not too long ago that showed some great passes (some of them no look) for his age.
He's obviously rated in this draft class a lot higher than Draymond was in his though, but Draymond was more ready to contribute more immediately.
Draftexpress raves about his D. You can youtube his strengths video to find evidence of it. Passing may be there too. Not sure.
lilfishi22 wrote:Zelaznyrules wrote:I think some are putting too much emphasis on the "serviceable role player" comment by Mr Twister. That entire sentence was a little confusing. I don't want to put words in his mouth but the way I translated his comment was that Bender will likely be a serviceable role player when he enters the league but has the potential to be much more if used and coached correctly. I don't believe he was writing his career off as no more than a role player.
I don't see that at all. He's expected to be a long term project and his likely career is that of a serviceable role player with a small chance he becomes more (as do majority of lotto picks).