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The Trade/Free Agency Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2

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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#141 » by bwgood77 » Tue May 31, 2016 10:16 pm

GoranTragic wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
Alright. Let's say we do that trade. Does that mean we trade Len in a package for Butler/Cousins?


Well, he is definitely more expendable and could be used in some type of package, and we've upgraded at center. I'm not really ready to give up on Len personally, but just for value, the deal seems fine, particularly since this draft isn't all that good and our primary need is PF. If Bender is gone, I'm not sure there is a PF that goes between 4-10 that is all that much better than someone we could get at 11, and I don't really think we need a guard or small forward.


We could also keep Len and have him backup Vucevic. What about Chandler?


I don't know that he is trade-able, and if he is, it won't be until after free agency when someone wanting a center strikes out on primary targets. And I think our front office wants to keep him.

This is the whole reason I don't really think we need (or the better word is "don't think McD is likley") to trade for a center unless we are moving on from Len.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#142 » by BobbieL » Tue May 31, 2016 10:22 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Well, he is definitely more expendable and could be used in some type of package, and we've upgraded at center. I'm not really ready to give up on Len personally, but just for value, the deal seems fine, particularly since this draft isn't all that good and our primary need is PF. If Bender is gone, I'm not sure there is a PF that goes between 4-10 that is all that much better than someone we could get at 11, and I don't really think we need a guard or small forward.


We could also keep Len and have him backup Vucevic. What about Chandler?


I don't know that he is trade-able, and if he is, it won't be until after free agency when someone wanting a center strikes out on primary targets. And I think our front office wants to keep him.

This is the whole reason I don't really think we need (or the better word is "don't think McD is likley") to trade for a center unless we are moving on from Len.


I agree. I think any Center that is traded is AFTER free agency when teams need one. A guy like Kanter could be out there with the way Adams played.

Interesting offseason awaits. Suns have a long way to go and hopefully Sarver stays the hell out of the way and lets Ryan McDonough do his damn job. This all started when Sarver was dumb enough to let Kerrs contract expire on June 30, 2010.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#143 » by Skin » Tue May 31, 2016 10:55 pm

GoranTragic wrote:
Skin wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
Again. Vucevic is not worth jumping 7 spots in this draft. We are not the Brooklyn Nets :lol:

Fair enough. So are you among those not interested in Okafor for #4 either? If you are interested in Okafor, how come?


Okafor peaks our interest. For the right package we won't hesitate. How about Vucevic/Payton for Knight/#28/#34?

Skin wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:
Yup and a 18points/9rebounds/1.5blocks player is pretty damn good. Granted his offense isnt as good as Okafor's (its very close), but his defense (Specifically in the post) is way way better than Okafor's. On top of all that we keep Knight (another asset that can be used in another trade) while also still having a 2nd lotto pick (instead of straight giving up #4 we are moving down 7 spots). Hell, we might even be able to package #11/#13 and move up (NO/SAC/DEN).

What about this?

PHX gets: Elfrid Payton / Jahlil Okafor / 1st Round (26) via PHI

PHI gets: Brandon Knight / Nikola Vucevic

ORL gets: #4 / Tyson Chandler

PHX gets a pass first PG in Payton to pair with Okafor and balance the rotation, plus an additional 1st.
PHI gets a capable PG they lack plus a replacement for Okafor.
ORL gets #4 (Dunn) and a stop gap defensive C in Chandler. They keep #11 which they can use to draft a young big to develop.


Does Philly really need Vucevic if they keep Noel/Embiid? I would to that deal although I would hate to lose Chandler guiding our youth. Tucker won't teach them anything expect how to chow down on nachos :lol:

I don't think the Magic would have interest in Knight and those picks. The goal is to get #4.

I can see how that might be a little steep for PHI. I thought they were getting the upper hand in their return for Jahlil. What if I removed the 1st from PHX. Are these terms still fair enough that it's something PHX would do?

PHX gets: Elfrid Payton / Jahlil Okafor

PHI gets: Brandon Knight / Nikola Vucevic

ORL gets: #4 / Tyson Chandler
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Re: Re: Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#144 » by Cactus Jack » Tue May 31, 2016 10:55 pm

BobbieL wrote:
Interesting offseason awaits. Suns have a long way to go and hopefully Sarver stays the hell out of the way and lets Ryan McDonough do his damn job. This all started when Sarver was dumb enough to let Kerrs contract expire on June 30, 2010.

Yeah, I never understood the whole Kerr leaving saga.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#145 » by Kerrsed » Tue May 31, 2016 10:59 pm

This is seriously going to be the summer of Super Teams. With the cap going up to crazy heights, you already have teams with star players that now have the cash to grab another. Look at GS, who had a crazy good year with a team full of great players. This season they were over the cap with a $94M team.In the offseason they will be trimming some of the fat (losing some unused players to FA) and will be at $74M. If they really wanted to add Durant, and Durant really wanted to win, it could be done. Could you imagine a team with Curry/Thompson/Durant/Green/Bogut? Insane.

My point is that this is the season to go big and swing for the fences. If teams dont, the rich will continue to get richer and i can see a NBA where the top 4-6 teams will dominate for years and years to come, while others just become/stay perennial losers.

You have OKC who is only losing 3 players to FA (Not counting Durant). They have only $66M committed next season. That gives them close to $30M to spend on better players in the offseason, after which they can then re-sign Durant and exceed the cap.

Cavs are also in a very similar situation.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#146 » by ratrac » Tue May 31, 2016 10:59 pm

Skin wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:
saintEscaton wrote:Vucevic is what he is at this point. Too early to write off Jah as a finished product just yet


Yup and a 18points/9rebounds/1.5blocks player is pretty damn good. Granted his offense isnt as good as Okafor's (its very close), but his defense (Specifically in the post) is way way better than Okafor's. On top of all that we keep Knight (another asset that can be used in another trade) while also still having a 2nd lotto pick (instead of straight giving up #4 we are moving down 7 spots). Hell, we might even be able to package #11/#13 and move up (NO/SAC/DEN).

What about this?

PHX gets: Elfrid Payton / Jahlil Okafor / 1st Round (26) via PHI

PHI gets: Brandon Knight / Nikola Vucevic

ORL gets: #4 / Tyson Chandler

PHX gets a pass first PG in Payton to pair with Okafor and balance the rotation, plus an additional 1st.
PHI gets a capable PG they lack plus a replacement for Okafor.
ORL gets #4 (Dunn) and a stop gap defensive C in Chandler. They keep #11 which they can use to draft a young big to develop.


Yeah, Philly doesn't do this, it's not very logical. We are trying to deal one of Noel/Okafor because of a huge logjam and it wouldn't make sense to do a trade for the sake of trading so we would have exactly the same logjam. We are not dealing Noel/Okafor because we don't value them, don't like them.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#147 » by Skin » Tue May 31, 2016 11:19 pm

ratrac wrote:
Skin wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:
Yup and a 18points/9rebounds/1.5blocks player is pretty damn good. Granted his offense isnt as good as Okafor's (its very close), but his defense (Specifically in the post) is way way better than Okafor's. On top of all that we keep Knight (another asset that can be used in another trade) while also still having a 2nd lotto pick (instead of straight giving up #4 we are moving down 7 spots). Hell, we might even be able to package #11/#13 and move up (NO/SAC/DEN).

What about this?

PHX gets: Elfrid Payton / Jahlil Okafor / 1st Round (26) via PHI

PHI gets: Brandon Knight / Nikola Vucevic

ORL gets: #4 / Tyson Chandler

PHX gets a pass first PG in Payton to pair with Okafor and balance the rotation, plus an additional 1st.
PHI gets a capable PG they lack plus a replacement for Okafor.
ORL gets #4 (Dunn) and a stop gap defensive C in Chandler. They keep #11 which they can use to draft a young big to develop.


Yeah, Philly doesn't do this, it's not very logical. We are trying to deal one of Noel/Okafor because of a huge logjam and it wouldn't make sense to do a trade for the sake of trading so we would have exactly the same logjam. We are not dealing Noel/Okafor because we don't value them, don't like them.

We have since removed the 1st rounder going to PHX from PHI. But does Knight not make up any difference in value between Okafor and Vucevic? If you wish, to alleviate your log jam you can still trade Noel or Vucevic.
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Re: Re: Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#148 » by jredsaz » Tue May 31, 2016 11:21 pm

Skin wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
Skin wrote:Fair enough. So are you among those not interested in Okafor for #4 either? If you are interested in Okafor, how come?


Okafor peaks our interest. For the right package we won't hesitate. How about Vucevic/Payton for Knight/#28/#34?

Skin wrote:What about this?

PHX gets: Elfrid Payton / Jahlil Okafor / 1st Round (26) via PHI

PHI gets: Brandon Knight / Nikola Vucevic

ORL gets: #4 / Tyson Chandler

PHX gets a pass first PG in Payton to pair with Okafor and balance the rotation, plus an additional 1st.
PHI gets a capable PG they lack plus a replacement for Okafor.
ORL gets #4 (Dunn) and a stop gap defensive C in Chandler. They keep #11 which they can use to draft a young big to develop.


Does Philly really need Vucevic if they keep Noel/Embiid? I would to that deal although I would hate to lose Chandler guiding our youth. Tucker won't teach them anything expect how to chow down on nachos :lol:

I don't think the Magic would have interest in Knight and those picks. The goal is to get #4.

I can see how that might be a little steep for PHI. I thought they were getting the upper hand in their return for Jahlil. What if I removed the 1st from PHX. Are these terms still fair enough that it's something PHX would do?

PHX gets: Elfrid Payton / Jahlil Okafor

PHI gets: Brandon Knight / Nikola Vucevic

ORL gets: #4 / Tyson Chandler


Philly wants a top five pick in return for Okafor. They don't want another big man for their crowded front court and Knight. I asked earlier and never got a response. How far away is #4 for Gordon?
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#149 » by ratrac » Tue May 31, 2016 11:26 pm

Skin wrote:
ratrac wrote:
Skin wrote:What about this?

PHX gets: Elfrid Payton / Jahlil Okafor / 1st Round (26) via PHI

PHI gets: Brandon Knight / Nikola Vucevic

ORL gets: #4 / Tyson Chandler

PHX gets a pass first PG in Payton to pair with Okafor and balance the rotation, plus an additional 1st.
PHI gets a capable PG they lack plus a replacement for Okafor.
ORL gets #4 (Dunn) and a stop gap defensive C in Chandler. They keep #11 which they can use to draft a young big to develop.


Yeah, Philly doesn't do this, it's not very logical. We are trying to deal one of Noel/Okafor because of a huge logjam and it wouldn't make sense to do a trade for the sake of trading so we would have exactly the same logjam. We are not dealing Noel/Okafor because we don't value them, don't like them.

We have since removed the 1st rounder going to PHX from PHI. But does Knight not make up any difference in value between Okafor and Vucevic? If you wish, to alleviate your log jam you can still trade Noel or Vucevic.


The value is not terrible, but I wouldn't do it even without the logjam. It would be a very hard/impossible to sell even the idea. Imagine Orlando trading Aaron Gordon for a about fairish value, but for a SG prospect, it wouldn't make that much of a sense. You would need to find a forth team that takes Vucevic and gives out something to Sixers (very hard to do that would be worth it).

PS. It's kind of strange, Sixers fan and Orlando fan discussing a deal in a Suns board.
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Re: Re: Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#150 » by Skin » Tue May 31, 2016 11:28 pm

jredsaz wrote:
Skin wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
Okafor peaks our interest. For the right package we won't hesitate. How about Vucevic/Payton for Knight/#28/#34?



Does Philly really need Vucevic if they keep Noel/Embiid? I would to that deal although I would hate to lose Chandler guiding our youth. Tucker won't teach them anything expect how to chow down on nachos :lol:

I don't think the Magic would have interest in Knight and those picks. The goal is to get #4.

I can see how that might be a little steep for PHI. I thought they were getting the upper hand in their return for Jahlil. What if I removed the 1st from PHX. Are these terms still fair enough that it's something PHX would do?

PHX gets: Elfrid Payton / Jahlil Okafor

PHI gets: Brandon Knight / Nikola Vucevic

ORL gets: #4 / Tyson Chandler


Philly wants a top five pick in return for Okafor. They don't want another big man for their crowded front court and Knight. I asked earlier and never got a response. How far away is #4 for Gordon?

Gordon for 4 is a fair deal, but I don't think the Magic would do it. Fixes one spot and leaves a hole at another.

You're right. PHI does want a top pick for Okafor. Appreciate the feedback.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#151 » by bwgood77 » Tue May 31, 2016 11:36 pm

BobbieL wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
GoranTragic wrote:
We could also keep Len and have him backup Vucevic. What about Chandler?


I don't know that he is trade-able, and if he is, it won't be until after free agency when someone wanting a center strikes out on primary targets. And I think our front office wants to keep him.

This is the whole reason I don't really think we need (or the better word is "don't think McD is likley") to trade for a center unless we are moving on from Len.


I agree. I think any Center that is traded is AFTER free agency when teams need one. A guy like Kanter could be out there with the way Adams played.

Interesting offseason awaits. Suns have a long way to go and hopefully Sarver stays the hell out of the way and lets Ryan McDonough do his damn job. This all started when Sarver was dumb enough to let Kerrs contract expire on June 30, 2010.


Worked out well for Kerr too. Also, in the end, worked out well for him that his so called "trade Amare for Curry" never went through back in the day.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#152 » by RaisingArizona » Tue May 31, 2016 11:37 pm

I'm sick of not being relevant. Really sucks counting on not making the playoffs year in and year out.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#153 » by rsavaj » Tue May 31, 2016 11:39 pm

Another point re: Okafor...you can get scoring from any other position on the court, but when it comes to rim protection, it's gotta be one of your bigs. With the rise of stretch PFs, your last line of defense is gonna be your C.

A C who can't defend the rim is a problem, because there isn't going to be another player on the floor that can play that role.

Again, I like Okafor, and he's clearly one of the very best post players in the league(as a rook!), but I just question how valuable that skill is.

If McD believes that Okafor can turn into a decent defender/rim protector too, then he almost has to make this trade. If not, then I don't blame him for passing*






*I reserve the right to talk about how much McD sucks two years from now if he passed on an Okafor deal and Okafor is tearing it up in Boston. Hypocritical? Sure, but that's how fanhood works.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#154 » by sunshoopjunky » Tue May 31, 2016 11:45 pm

BobbieL wrote:This all started when Sarver was dumb enough to let Kerrs contract expire on June 30, 2010.

This all started with Sarver not extending Joe Johnson.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#155 » by bwgood77 » Tue May 31, 2016 11:57 pm

Kerrsed wrote:This is seriously going to be the summer of Super Teams. With the cap going up to crazy heights, you already have teams with star players that now have the cash to grab another. Look at GS, who had a crazy good year with a team full of great players. This season they were over the cap with a $94M team.In the offseason they will be trimming some of the fat (losing some unused players to FA) and will be at $74M. If they really wanted to add Durant, and Durant really wanted to win, it could be done. Could you imagine a team with Curry/Thompson/Durant/Green/Bogut? Insane.

You have OKC who is only losing 3 players to FA (Not counting Durant). They have only $66M committed next season. That gives them close to $30M to spend on better players in the offseason, after which they can then re-sign Durant and exceed the cap.

Cavs are also in a very similar situation.


OKC is obviously well equipped to beat GS but blew the series. If they could get home court, that could be the difference. I don't think Durant is going anywhere, at least not yet. He may sign a 2 year deal with a player option in year 2, if for no other reason than so he can get a super max in 2 years.

Kerrsed wrote:My point is that this is the season to go big and swing for the fences. If teams dont, the rich will continue to get richer and i can see a NBA where the top 4-6 teams will dominate for years and years to come, while others just become/stay perennial losers.


Hasn't the league always been where 4-6 super teams dominate for years and years? It's actually more like 2-3 in the 80s, 2-3 in the 90s, 2 in the early 2000s, 2 in the late 2000s, and then around 2-4 in the 2010s.

Sure you can throw in others besides the ones I mentioned, like

In the 80s is was pretty much dominated by LA and Boston, though Philly and Houston were tough and at least went to the finals one year, and then the Bad Boy Pistons in the last year.

In the 90s you had the Bad Boy Pistons for one more year, then pretty much domination from the Bulls when Jordan was there and Houston when he was not, and the Spurs won it all in 99.

You could throw a bunch of other tough teams in the 90s such as the Knicks, Pacers, Suns, Blazers, Spurs, Jazz who had the STARS.

Early 2000s you had LA and SA alternating with Detroit for a year, with Sacramento and then Minnesota right there until the Suns broke through to compete with SA, and Dallas got better with Dirk and Detroit breaking through one year and being tough for a few.

In late 2000s LA and Boston once again with Cleveland being tough and Orlando getting to finals once, and of course the Suns with one last shot until we gradually tried to hang onto a playoff spot for 5 years, before finally realizing "wait, we are not really playoff caliber"

Then of course in the 2010s it's been Miami, SA, OKC, a dose of Dallas, and then the Warriors the last two years.

I know you already knew all this though, so I guess I'm just rambling.

The league has always been dominated by the teams with stars for a decade or so, while the rest bounced around between topping out at a 2nd round playoff spot or being in the lottery.

I really do wish there was less predictability in seasons overall. I mean most playoff series are pretty much just going through the motions...I think there is about 1 maybe 2 surprises a year in the playoffs.

But most of all, there are usually only about 1, maybe 2 surprises about which teams make the playoffs, even before the season starts.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#156 » by bwgood77 » Tue May 31, 2016 11:57 pm

sunshoopjunky wrote:
BobbieL wrote:This all started when Sarver was dumb enough to let Kerrs contract expire on June 30, 2010.

This all started with Sarver not extending Joe Johnson.


Yep, first decision that had rippling effects for years.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#157 » by bwgood77 » Tue May 31, 2016 11:58 pm

rsavaj wrote:Another point re: Okafor...you can get scoring from any other position on the court, but when it comes to rim protection, it's gotta be one of your bigs. With the rise of stretch PFs, your last line of defense is gonna be your C.

A C who can't defend the rim is a problem, because there isn't going to be another player on the floor that can play that role.

Again, I like Okafor, and he's clearly one of the very best post players in the league(as a rook!), but I just question how valuable that skill is.

If McD believes that Okafor can turn into a decent defender/rim protector too, then he almost has to make this trade. If not, then I don't blame him for passing*

*I reserve the right to talk about how much McD sucks two years from now if he passed on an Okafor deal and Okafor is tearing it up in Boston. Hypocritical? Sure, but that's how fanhood works.


1.2 blocks per game not bad for a rookie.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#158 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jun 1, 2016 12:00 am

Skin wrote:
ratrac wrote:
Skin wrote:What about this?

PHX gets: Elfrid Payton / Jahlil Okafor / 1st Round (26) via PHI

PHI gets: Brandon Knight / Nikola Vucevic

ORL gets: #4 / Tyson Chandler

PHX gets a pass first PG in Payton to pair with Okafor and balance the rotation, plus an additional 1st.
PHI gets a capable PG they lack plus a replacement for Okafor.
ORL gets #4 (Dunn) and a stop gap defensive C in Chandler. They keep #11 which they can use to draft a young big to develop.


Yeah, Philly doesn't do this, it's not very logical. We are trying to deal one of Noel/Okafor because of a huge logjam and it wouldn't make sense to do a trade for the sake of trading so we would have exactly the same logjam. We are not dealing Noel/Okafor because we don't value them, don't like them.

We have since removed the 1st rounder going to PHX from PHI. But does Knight not make up any difference in value between Okafor and Vucevic? If you wish, to alleviate your log jam you can still trade Noel or Vucevic.


What would you do at center without Vucevic? Fran Vasquez coming over soon?
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#159 » by Skin » Wed Jun 1, 2016 12:27 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Skin wrote:
ratrac wrote:
Yeah, Philly doesn't do this, it's not very logical. We are trying to deal one of Noel/Okafor because of a huge logjam and it wouldn't make sense to do a trade for the sake of trading so we would have exactly the same logjam. We are not dealing Noel/Okafor because we don't value them, don't like them.

We have since removed the 1st rounder going to PHX from PHI. But does Knight not make up any difference in value between Okafor and Vucevic? If you wish, to alleviate your log jam you can still trade Noel or Vucevic.


What would you do at center without Vucevic? Fran Vasquez coming over soon?

I think a GM has to play this game like chess, thinking of moves in advance. For the Magic, I imagine it would be harder for us to attract a FA Center if they see Vucevic solidly embedded at that spot. If we can use Vucevic to fix another position and strengthen the team at the 1-4 spots, then I'm hoping we can lure in a FA like Whiteside (unlikely, but have to try), Howard (conceivable) or other (Ezeli, Biyombo). The better we can make the team look around him, and show open opportunity, I think that improves our chances a lot more than our current state. The downside to that is not being able to sign any big named FA but that's the kind of bold risk that comes with the job.

Getting Chandler alleviates some of that risk, but you have to weigh the cost of acquiring him.
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Re: The Trade Thread: All Eyes Toward The Offseason 2 

Post#160 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jun 1, 2016 12:30 am

Skin wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Skin wrote:We have since removed the 1st rounder going to PHX from PHI. But does Knight not make up any difference in value between Okafor and Vucevic? If you wish, to alleviate your log jam you can still trade Noel or Vucevic.


What would you do at center without Vucevic? Fran Vasquez coming over soon?

I think a GM has to play this game like chess, thinking of moves in advance. For the Magic, I imagine it would be harder for us to attract a FA Center if they see Vucevic solidly embedded at that spot. If we can use Vucevic to fix another position and strengthen the team at the 1-4 spots, then I'm hoping we can lure in a FA like Whiteside (unlikely, but have to try), Howard (conceivable) or other (Ezeli, Biyombo). The better we can make the team look around him, and show open opportunity, I think that improves our chances a lot more than our current state. The downside to that is not being able to sign any big named FA but that's the kind of bold risk that comes with the job.

Getting Chandler alleviates some of that risk, but you have to weigh the cost of acquiring him.


So you'd rather have Dunn than Payton AND Vucevic? That seems kind of crazy. I'm not a huge fan of either but they do have some pretty good skills.

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