Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[the_process]

Jah is gone whether they draft Simmons or Ingram. Noel has to stay because Embiid will be limited this year.

I think PJ turned the Sixers down because Bryan and Brett told him they are going to draft Simmons. Family was just the convenient excuse.

Bryan and Brett better be right.

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

Jah is gone whether they draft Simmons or Ingram. Noel has to stay because Embiid will be limited this year.

I think PJ turned the Sixers down because Bryan and Brett told him they are going to draft Simmons. Family was just the convenient excuse.

Bryan and Brett better be right.

Link?

[phiphan]

http://www.phillymag.com/news/2016/05/31/colangelo-knows-what-he-would-do-today-with-1st-pick-sources-say-its-ben-simmons/

[Ericb5]

http://www.phillymag.com/news/2016/05/31/colangelo-knows-what-he-would-do-today-with-1st-pick-sources-say-its-ben-simmons/

No wonder the media loves BC compared to Hinkie, but he should be keeping his mouth shut.

Since we have the number 1 pick we control our destiny here so there isn't any real risk to talking in this case, but in general, you don't want opposing teams to have any idea what you may do.

[Skates]

I remember reading one of Cooney's early BC articles and he loved that BC gave him the same qualified, might be totally lying answers that most GM's give. Cooney could care less if what the guy said was true or not, or that most of it was totally cliché GM-speak, he just loved that a) his limited intellect regarding modern basketball could actually understand it, and b) he felt comfortable with the typical platitudes because he knew how to report on those. Cooney basically admitted as much in the article.

However, in this case I think BC is playing the game exactly right. The only team they might possibly trade the top pick to is the Lakers, and the only possible reason the Lakers would trade up is if they would kill to get Ben Simmons, so in this limited market BC has to almost overtly lean towards Simmons. Either he takes the guy and Simmons feels the love because he was the guy we wanted all along, or if the Lakers offer something really good, it is because they are certain we are taking Simmons. I don't think the Lakers will be looking to trade up, but if they did, it would be for Simmons, not Ingram.

[05PhillyAI]

Brandon Ingram is the black Jimmy Chitwood. Ben Simmons is Lamar Odom without the crack pipe. I'm taking Chitwood..."I'll make it..."

Jimmy Chitwood never made the NBA. You're making my point for Simmons even easier

Haha. Yea, Jimmy never made it to the league. I do believe the NBA would have been better off with that sweet Indiana Farmer Boy stroke though

[76ciology]

I remember reading one of Cooney's early BC articles and he loved that BC gave him the same qualified, might be totally lying answers that most GM's give. Cooney could care less if what the guy said was true or not, or that most of it was totally cliché GM-speak, he just loved that a) his limited intellect regarding modern basketball could actually understand it, and b) he felt comfortable with the typical platitudes because he knew how to report on those. Cooney basically admitted as much in the article.

However, in this case I think BC is playing the game exactly right. The only team they might possibly trade the top pick to is the Lakers, and the only possible reason the Lakers would trade up is if they would kill to get Ben Simmons, so in this limited market BC has to almost overtly lean towards Simmons. Either he takes the guy and Simmons feels the love because he was the guy we wanted all along, or if the Lakers offer something really good, it is because they are certain we are taking Simmons. I don't think the Lakers will be looking to trade up, but if they did, it would be for Simmons, not Ingram.

I'm also leaning on that angle. Simmons also increases their (Lakers) chance to land a big name FA. Maybe I'm with the tin foiled hat minority who believes there are undeclared salaries by Spurs and Lakers do recruit some rookies (one of them is Embiid).

But if BC opts for Simmons, I just hope for the best and would support that decision.

[Skates]

People are forgetting what an extreme talent Lamar Odom really was. He did pretty much have it all, but lacked a lead dog mentality and ached to be more Pippen than Magic as far as his role in things. Some great passers can dominate, others complement, and Odom was of the latter kind, plus he was all kinds of messed up being on bad teams early on and touching a Kardashian later, which is almost literally the touch of death.

In this draft I would take a more dominating Lamar Odom in a minute, though I like Ingram as well, he is more of a rich man's Tayshaun Prince, which is still very good, than he is any comparison to Durant, just like Simmons is no LeBron or even close.

[Ericb5]

People are forgetting what an extreme talent Lamar Odom really was. He did pretty much have it all, but lacked a lead dog mentality and ached to be more Pippen than Magic as far as his role in things. Some great passers can dominate, others complement, and Odom was of the latter kind, plus he was all kinds of messed up being on bad teams early on and touching a Kardashian later, which is almost literally the touch of death.

In this draft I would take a more dominating Lamar Odom in a minute, though I like Ingram as well, he is more of a rich man's Tayshaun Prince, which is still very good, than he is any comparison to Durant, just like Simmons is no LeBron or even close.

I agree, but I would go one step further and say that, while he was a really good passer, and had good vision, he wasn't at the level that Simmons is, nor did he have the facilitation gene.

He was more a guy that COULD do it, as opposed to someone that was BORN to do it.

[Mik317]

Odom's off court demons and just general **** luck was what really kept him from being great...and even then he was a major piece of a championship team. So Odom with his life in order is not this diss people are trying to use it as

[SelfishPlayer]

Is Ben Simmons soft? I've seen him do something extremely soft at the 00:05:10 mark. He avoided an opportunity to dunk all over a 6'2" guard in transition in favor of passing the ball to a wide open teammate for a corner 3 attempt. The teammate missed the 3. A 19 year old Lebron James would have leaped over that 6'2" player for the dunk.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_Xy4w93IXw[/youtube]

[Sundown]

Is Ben Simmons soft? I've seen him do something extremely soft at the 00:05:10 mark. He avoided an opportunity to dunk all over a 6'2" guard in transition in favor of passing the ball to a wide open teammate for a corner 3 attempt. The teammate missed the 3. A 19 year old Lebron James would have leaped over that 6'2" player for the dunk.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_Xy4w93IXw[/youtube]

Looks to me like the pass was a second late and Simmons found himself under the bucket.

[Kobblehead]

Does the 19 year old LeBron in this analogy have a hoverboard that allows him to reverse-float back out from underneath the basket to attempt the dunk?

[FreesFro]

The nitpicking of the deficiencies in Ben Simmons' game has reached epic proportions.

I can do the same of every single guy that has ever played basketball including MJ, Lebron, Magic, Bird, etc. let alone a 19 year old.

People are looking at anything and everything to criticize the kid, to knock him down a peg. I could see Lakers fans doing it now that they have the second pick and will not get him and I have seen that.

Listen, if you've seen him shoot from the outside he doesn't need to completely overhaul his shot as I've seen posted on here over and over. He didn't play poorly in big games for LSU this year as I've read on here. Heck, did LSU really have any "big" games this year? And yes he can finish with his left hand. The dude is right-handed, shoots from the outside left-handed, but can't finish at the rim left-handed? Please.

Nitpick all you want at our future super star. He'll be our pick and our leader very soon.

[sixerman25]

Does the 19 year old LeBron in this analogy have a hoverboard that allows him to reverse-float back out from underneath the basket to attempt the dunk?

Hit the nail on the head regarding the play Selfish player referenced. Besides, if we're using single plays to measure the toughness of a player, surely we should consider that play against Marquette that everyone has seen, where he dribbles the length of the court, bulls his way through 3-4 defenders and finishes with the contact dunk a la LeBron.

Simmons is very unselfish and is always looking to make the higher percentage play. A lot of times that means hitting the open man or passing up an outside jumper to get close to the rim where he shoots over 70%. Unfortunately he had minimal talent around him at LSU and should have had more assists. He also should have had more touches in general. Watching those games there are so many times when his less talented teammates tried and failed to get it done on offense without getting him involved. He has great instincts though and does a lot of little things with his positioning to help his team even when he doesn't have the ball.

[Arsenal]

The way the Ingram lovers have proclaimed that Ben Simmons is just another Lamar Odom is a joke.

Ben Simmons is a MUCH better prospect than Lamar Odom.

Better and more efficient scorer. Better rebounder. Better passer. Better ballhandler. Better defensive potential. Less of a headcase.

[76ciology]

The way the Ingram lovers have proclaimed that Ben Simmons is just another Lamar Odom is a joke.

Ben Simmons is a MUCH better prospect than Lamar Odom.

Better and more efficient scorer. Better rebounder. Better passer. Better ballhandler. Better defensive potential. Less of a headcase.

But Odom is better on two things that are most valuable in the league. Odom is the better shooter (attempted 100 3s &33%) and is the better shotblocker at 1.5bpg.

Talent was never the issue for Odom. At 6’10 235 with a 7’4 wingspan, he had the length of a center and the quickness of a small forward. He was the prototype for a new generation of big men, more comfortable on the perimeter than the low block, but what made him special was his feel for the game. Not only could he handle and pass like a guard, he could control tempo and create shots for anyone on the floor. There really wasn’t much he couldn’t do on a basketball court.

Odom also has similar wingspan and does sound like he plays the same way.

[Mik317]

Lamar Odom only shot better than 33% from 3...3 times in his 14 year NBA career.

so not sure how much better he really was in retrospect as a shooter. He shot more for sure...but that doesn't make him exactly a knock down guy either.

Simmons also will have a much better start and environment than Odom. Yeah we lost a shitton of games...but one thing Brown has going for him is keep the locker room together. Odom and Simmons are similar players in terms of toolsets..but the motor upstairs, the better life in general (unfortunately for Lamar..dude has lived a hard life), and entering a situation as the man instead of yet another prospect all come into play here. I think people are using this Odom thing as a knock...when its really not. If Simmons is truly "just" Lamar Odom who lived up to his potential...then we won. If he is just Michael Beasley with his **** in order. We good. Those two guys were space cadets..and they had or will have 10 year careers regardless. The situation is a major part of things that go into a guy succeeding. For all of the media blather of us being a horrible place...it really wasn''t the case for the players, and even if it was the Colangelos will damn sure make sure it doesn't become one (the NBA kinda needs things to turn around so they can go "see Hinkie was bad doe", instead of it failing because of Bryan and his daddy). Whereas Beasley went to Miami, a place where not only all of his vices were readily available but they also NEEDED him to grow up ASAP to at the time keep Wade there. And Odom when to the early 00's Clippers....we are bad, don't get me wrong...but we aren't that bad (locker room wise at the very least). So yeah those are ok comps in terms of profile I guess...but those guys failure was never because of talent.

[Negrodamus]

Odom's off court demons and just general **** luck was what really kept him from being great...and even then he was a major piece of a championship team. So Odom with his life in order is not this diss people are trying to use it as

Hey, I agree with the Odom comparison and said that he's worth a top pick in this draft.

I do find the pro-Simmons crowd to be interesting. And I don't think there is really a pro-Ingram crowd. I think there is just a not-Simmons crowd and the next on deck is Ingram. I know someone argued this point before as a counterpoint to people vying for Ingram. I may be biased, but I feel like it's almost biblical in that you either believe wholeheartedly or you're agnostically, or completely atheist, against Simmons.

I do think there is something to be said about being not-Simmons. Even though this board is a bit split, he seems to be the near unanimous #1 pick. If you look in the past, do those #1 picks always come out as the best in the draft? Let's start with the LeBron draft and work our way to today:

(I asterisks the ones I think were completely unanimous)

*2003- #1 LeBron James | #3 Carmelo, #4 Bosh, #5 Wade, etc. LeBron is unquestionably the best of this great class.

2004- #1 Dwight Howard | #15 Al Jeff, #5 Devin Harris, #9 Iguodala, etc. At the time, it was a 2 person draft (Okafor and Howard), but #1 definitely ended up being the best.

*2005- #1 Andrew Bogut | #4 Chris Paul, #3 Deron Williams, #10 Andrew Bynum. Bogut (Aussies UNITE!) was hyped big time. IIRC, he was pretty unanimously #1. Chris Paul has obviously outplayed him. Arguable the other names, along with Granger, had better careers as Bogut was a very nice role player.

2006- #1 Colangelo's Infamous Bargnani. Hardly unanimous #1. Let's move along.

2007- #1 Greg Oden | #2 Durant, #3 Horford, #48 Marc Gasol, #12 Thaddeus. Not a unanimous draft, but it would be hard to believe that Oden would have surpassed skinny, ole Durant even if he stayed healthy.

2008- #1 Derrick Rose | #2 Michael Beasley, #4 Westbrook, #5 Kevin Love. Another 2 person draft, but neither of them ended up being the best in the draft despite Rose's MVP.

*2009- #1 Blake Griffin| #3 James Harden, #7 Steph Curry, #9 Derozan. Another IIRC that Griffin was unanimous. It's arguable that he has ended up #2 in this draft, but Harden does have a legit argument.

*2010- #1 John Wall | #5 Cousins, #10 Paul George, #18 Bledsoe, #3 Favors. Wall was unanimous, but I'm in the Cousins and George camp. They are better players to me.

*2011- #1 Kyrie Irving| #11 Klay Thompson, #15 Kawhi Leonard, #30 Jimmy Buckets. This is a hard one because Irving was injured, but still kinda unanimous. He also has been quite good, but not as good as the 3 listed after him IMO. Can't argue against the pick.

*2012- #1 Anthony Davis| #6 Lillard, #9 Drummond, #35 Draymond. Davis was unanimous and should have been. Because of injuries, I think there are arguments to be made for Lillard and possibly Draymond, but I do think Davis has lived up to that unanimous #1 selection.

2013- #1 Anthony Blarghett| Doesn't matter, this year sucked.

2014-2015 is kinda hard to say. Wiggins wasn't unanimous until Embiid's foot snapped. KAT was pretty unanimous and was the unanimous ROY, but there's still time with plenty of rookies having success to begin the coronation.

The point is, everyone is so absolute that's on Team Simmons. That's fine, but I'm not seeing LeBron James here. I'm not even seeing Anthony Davis. His length for his position is mediocre at best and he cannot, or chooses to not to (which might be perplexingly worse), shoot. Could he be the best? There is an obviously great case for him. However, I think a great case can be made for not-Simmons. Unfortunately, in this current media hungry world we live in, it would be reprehensible to draft someone like Dunn first. There would be major scrutiny if even Ingram was drafted ahead of Simmons.

Just some fodder on a slow Tuesday. I know this will be taken as fighting words, but whatev.

[76ciology]

Also something to consider.

26% of Simmons' offense is at fastbreak/transition, which is abnormally high.

Problem lies with scoring on halfcourt, where he only shot 55% at the paint in halfcourt setting.

While Simmons doesn't show much range as a shooter, he has excellent touch with either hand around the basket, being highly creative and acrobatic with the way he can finish plays, sometimes above the rim with a head of steam. His average length and propensity for avoiding contact around the rim hurts his percentages as a finisher inside the paint (he converted a just-decent 55% of his attempts here in the half-court), but he is such a mismatch at his size that he's able to draw a huge amount of fouls and free throw attempts (9.8 per-40) to compensate.

Bigger defenders in NBA. Bullyball rarely translates.