Official Trade Thread - Part XXX

[Ruzious]

For me, I'll take the good defensive center over the good scoring center 8 days a week and twice on Sundays. Okafor was a disaster on defense at Duke, so why should he be better in the NBA? He has no clue on how to defend PnR teams. What's the last team that won with a poor defensive center? Aside from that, Okafor turns the ball over an awful lot, and Noel is much more likely to get a rebound that doesn't come directly to him due to his better mobility.

[dckingsfan]

Will try to get back to this tomorrow or Monday. No time today.

Is today tomorrow - are you taking the holiday off - WTF!

[80sballboy]

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/9

For me, I'll take the good defensive center over the good scoring center 8 days a week and twice on Sundays. Okafor was a disaster on defense at Duke, so why should he be better in the NBA? He has no clue on how to defend PnR teams. What's the last team that won with a poor defensive center? Aside from that, Okafor turns the ball over an awful lot, and Noel is much more likely to get a rebound that doesn't come directly to him due to his better mobility.

Thanks. Everybody is infatuated with numbers, fantasy numbers and metrics. Ultimately your big has to defend and rebound in order to be successful. It was my biggest problem with Gortat this season-his lack of D. Okafor had that knock at Duke though he did win a title, but the NBA game is a bit different. Cleveland is using Tristan Thompson, OKC with Adams and GState with Bogut when they aren't going small. Thompson, Bogut and Adams (add Biyombo for Toronto) are all the type of centers needed to win in today's NBA.


http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25447847/nba-rookie-power-rankings-jahlil-okafor-got-game----just-not-on-defense

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/9

[gesa2]

I'd take Noell too probably. But there's an argument for Okafor based on his youth. If he wants to, he can become an average or better defender with work and experience.

[LyricalRico]

To me, acquiring Okafor would be like trading for Vucevic (or even Kanter) to be our starting center. Unless we were also acquiring elite defensive starting forwards, I wouldn't exactly be excited. Plus we can probably get Noel for less.

[Ruzious]

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/9

For me, I'll take the good defensive center over the good scoring center 8 days a week and twice on Sundays. Okafor was a disaster on defense at Duke, so why should he be better in the NBA? He has no clue on how to defend PnR teams. What's the last team that won with a poor defensive center? Aside from that, Okafor turns the ball over an awful lot, and Noel is much more likely to get a rebound that doesn't come directly to him due to his better mobility.

Thanks. Everybody is infatuated with numbers, fantasy numbers and metrics. Ultimately your big has to defend and rebound in order to be successful. It was my biggest problem with Gortat this season-his lack of D. Okafor had that knock at Duke though he did win a title, but the NBA game is a bit different. Cleveland is using Tristan Thompson, OKC with Adams and GState with Bogut when they aren't going small. Thompson, Bogut and Adams (add Biyombo for Toronto) are all the type of centers needed to win in today's NBA.


http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25447847/nba-rookie-power-rankings-jahlil-okafor-got-game----just-not-on-defense

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/9

You're welcome, but I think Gortat was solidly above average as a defender and rebounder. The biggest problem was we didn't have a PF who was even close to adequate at either. You really need 2 guys up front who can get it done defensively and on the boards, imo.

[gambitx777]

Say what you want about Morris as a rebounded, but they dude play god solid effort based D. He is not spectacular but he tries.

[payitforward]

To me, acquiring Okafor would be like trading for Vucevic (or even Kanter) to be our starting center. Unless we were also acquiring elite defensive starting forwards, I wouldn't exactly be excited. Plus we can probably get Noel for less.

Although I think there's a lot of over-reaction here in re: Okafor, who after all is younger than Kelly Oubre*, and may just have some possibility of development left in him, on defense and offense, the fact that we can get Noel for less -- or, more practically, might be able to get Noel and something more for Beal, is kind of a good point.

As I've mentioned before, we really don't have anything to trade other than Beal -- assuming we're not trading Wall or Gortat (or Porter, I would hope), and that we wouldn't be so foolish as to trade future R1 picks. And, we need players. Especially players who have a future. Young ones, in other words. So, getting Noel plus another solid asset would be a plus.

* "younger than Kelly Oubre" -- ok, it's only by a day, but still...

[TheSecretWeapon]

Will try to get back to this tomorrow or Monday. No time today.

Is today tomorrow - are you taking the holiday off - WTF!

When I look at the two players, Noel shows up as a top-shelf defender at 21 years old. That's fairly rare -- defense usually takes some time. Okafor rates as a poor defender, which isn't a killer because of his youth. The strength of his game is the offensive end, but he really wasn't very strong there as a rookie. He wasn't any more efficient on offense than Noel was, for example.

Meanwhile, Noel is an All-Defense level defender right now. Good shot blocker, great awareness (gets a TON of steals for a big), good defensive rebounder. His offensive game is definitely limited by his shooting (roughly 30% from 3+ feet). That's okay for someone who plays mostly in the paint -- especially if he can become an effective screen/roll partner for a good-passing PG, OR if he can be used as a weak-side offensive rebounder. He finishes well around the basket -- 71.6% at-rim last season (66% his rookie year) without a PG to speak of. Biggest problem with Noel offensively was turnovers; probably because he was being asked to play a bigger role offensively than he would if he'd played with actual NBA-quality teammates. (In general, teammate effects are overrated. Philly the past two years has been an extreme case because of their tanking strategy.)

The two are similar in the sense that they're talented bigs with potential to improve. Okafor has a LONG ways to go on defense, and some distance to go on offense. Noel is an outstanding defender now with definite offensive deficiencies. I think there's a more viable role on a good team for a player like Noel -- play terrific defense and contribute on offense by running the floor, grabbing offensive boards, setting screens, and finishing around the rim. Okafor's game is that of an old-fashioned back-to-the-basket big, which can be valuable IF the big is efficient in post-up situations (few are), AND if he's a good passer out of the post (Okafor might get there, but hasn't shown particular aptitude in this area).

Just for kicks, I ran them through my doppelganger machine.

Okafor's "most similar" (similar production at similar age):
- Michael Beasley
- Cliff Robinson (the one who played a couple years with the Bullets)
- Wayman Tisdale
- Andray Blatche

Other names still similar, but less so: LaMarcus Aldridge, Eddy Curry, Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Mostly guys who scored a lot on lower efficiency and didn't rebound much or generate many assists.

For Noel, well...the first name isn't super thrilling:
- Kwame Brown (this was Kwame's only season that rated above average)
- LaSalle Thompson
- Andrew Bogut
- Michael Kidd-Gilchrist

Other names still similar, but less so that the first four: A young Dan Roundfield, Kevin Garnett's rookie year, Ibaka. Have to go a ways down the list to get to Ben Wallace (who came to my mind as a model for Noel.

[Ruzious]

Interesting that Eddy Curry came up as a name to compare to Okafor. He is like a better/smarter version of Curry. But I'd use Brook Lopez as the comp that he'll develop into.

For Noel, it's Tyson Chandler (from Kwame's and Curry's rookie class), imo. We'll have to see if he can gain the upper body strength that Chandler did in the NBA.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Interesting that Eddy Curry came up as a name to compare to Okafor. He is like a better/smarter version of Curry. But I'd use Brook Lopez as the comp that he'll develop into.

For Noel, it's Tyson Chandler (from Kwame's and Curry's rookie class), imo. We'll have to see if he can gain the upper body strength that Chandler did in the NBA.

I recall that Shane Battier, Troy Murphy, and Zach Randolph were in that rookie class. So, too, was another big man out of HS named Desagana Diop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_NBA_draft

What a loaded draft: Pau Gasol, Joe Johnson, Richard Jefferson, Gerald Wallace, Brendan Haywood, Tony Parker, Gilbert Arenas, Mehmet Okur, Earl Watson.

[colts18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_NBA_draft

What a loaded draft: Kwame Brown, Pau Gasol, Joe Johnson, Richard Jefferson, Gerald Wallace, Brendan Haywood, Tony Parker, Gilbert Arenas, Mehmet Okur, Earl Watson.

Fixed it for you.

[Jimmy Recard]

Philly would be dumb to trade Noel. Okafor is the one that you move. He might very well be a dominant scorer and a franchise player one day, but having your center position occupied by a lumbering, unathletic, offensive minded big who offers no rim protection, mediocre rebounding, and can't defend a pick n roll to save his life is not the way to go in today's NBA.

If your Philly, you trade Okafor for the 3rd pick. Take Simmons number 1, use the 3rd pick on a guard and call it a day. A rotation of Simmons, Noel and Embiid could be scary one day.

[payitforward]

So... you think Boston is likely to trade the #3 pick for Okafor? Why -- is it because they are so much dumber than you? And so they want "a lumbering, unathletic, offensive minded big who offers no rim protection, mediocre rebounding, and can't defend a pick n roll to save his life...." -- is that it?

[Jimmy Recard]

So... you think Boston is likely to trade the #3 pick for Okafor? Why -- is it because they are so much dumber than you? And so they want "a lumbering, unathletic, offensive minded big who offers no rim protection, mediocre rebounding, and can't defend a pick n roll to save his life...." -- is that it?

Don't get too worked up guy, just going by the recent reports. And I never said he wasn't talented, he can flat out ball. Just pointing out why I would go with Noel going forward if I'm Philly.

[payitforward]

Well... no. But if you'd like to recast it that way, why not? So, Okafor is "a lumbering, unathletic, offensive minded big who offers no rim protection, mediocre rebounding, can't defend a pick n roll to save his life -- and can flat out ball." -- is that it?

Real point is that Philly is not looking for yet another high draft pick.

[montestewart]

"a lumbering, unathletic, offensive minded big who offers no rim protection, mediocre rebounding, can't defend a pick n roll to save his life -- and can flat out ball."

Other than being 5"9" with a horrible shot, that pretty much describes my game.

[illastrate]

Clipper fan here.

I have a reliable source(who's called multiple deals before) who said Washington is interested in DeAndre Jordan. BTW, I've heard everybody besides CP3 is available on the Clippers. Don't know anything else other than that.

[LyricalRico]

Clipper fan here.

I have a reliable source(who's called multiple deals before) who said Washington is interested in DeAndre Jordan. BTW, I've heard everybody besides CP3 is available on the Clippers. Don't know anything else other than that.

Clips need help at SF, don't they? So maybe Gortat+Porter for DJ? Makes the Wiz even thinner, but we get younger and better defensively in the middle. Clippers get a young glue guy in Porter, plus a center that will still put up numbers (and isn't a liability at the FT line).

[LyricalRico]

^ Building on that, add in my Beal+Morris for Love+Shumpert idea (maybe also include Satoransky) then maybe sign a guy like Batum...

Jordan
Love
Batum
Shumpert
Wall

That's a ton of moving parts and I'm not sure where that leaves us as far as $$$ left to build the bench, but that's a pretty balanced squad. Rebounding, shot blocking, outside shooting, and an all-star pg to distribute.