Official #1 pick thread: Simmons or Ingram? Merging topics and a Poll

[tk76]

Noel is as good a fit you're going to find at center short of someone like ibaka porzingis towns. he's certainly fine as a backup.

Saric isn't ideal but he's a widely skilled dude that can among other things knock down 3s. The role he played for efes this year is a lot like what he would play when he's playing with Simmons. And again he might be more a bench guy.

Okafor is an awful fit no doubt.

Agree. And to be fair, Okafor is a awful fit for a lot of teams. Overall, I'm a lot less focused on Simmons fit with current Sixers players than I am about what it means to start building around him.

To boil it down, I'm wary about committing to choosing as your cornerstone player a guy who needs the ball in his hands and is not a great shooter. It can work for sure, but for it to work Simmons has to be a top 10 star (unless Embiid owns the world, which could happen:)

[Kobblehead]

Lamar Odom and Draymond Green have how many Finals appearances between them? I'm pretty sure a non-superstar Ben Simmons will fit just fine as a complimentary player on a contender. Hell, even Evan Turner was a key member on a 45+ win Boston team.

Simmons is not Odom or Green. He is a guy who needs to have the ball in his hands most of the time in order to maximize his talent. If Simmons ends up missing it will be because he never develops a good enough shot. And that version of Simmons will be nothing like Odom or Green. If Simmons misses he will be more of a Okafor, in that he'd be a guy you need to build around without being worthy of building around.

You keeps saying "if Simmons misses" and it's incredible non-descript. If what aspect of Simmons misses? Because he does several things on the basketball court and has his eggs distributed in multiple baskets.

If his shot never develops, he still has his transition offense, rebounding, steal generating, facilitation, slashing, and finishing at the rim.

Your analogy to Okafor makes no sense. Okafor's entire game is reliant on his ability to score in isolation. He doesn't rebound, defend, protect the rim, etc. He's a 1-trick pony. Ben Simmons is the opposite of that.

Your opinion that Simmons won't fit as a complimentary player if he fails to achieve superstardom is a poor one. You conveniently ignored the Evan Turner example. Which is an absolute rock bottom scenario and still a proven key role player on a top 3 seed in a conference.

[Sixerscan]

Love falling off a cliff playing with the cavs is actually what caused my main concern about okafor playing with Simmons. And it's not like okafor can become a standstill shooter like love has.

[Kobblehead]

Noel is as good a fit you're going to find at center short of someone like ibaka porzingis towns. he's certainly fine as a backup.

Saric isn't ideal but he's a widely skilled dude that can among other things knock down 3s. The role he played for efes this year is a lot like what he would play when he's playing with Simmons. And again he might be more a bench guy.

Okafor is an awful fit no doubt.

Agree. And to be fair, Okafor is a awful fit for a lot of teams. Overall, I'm a lot less focused on Simmons fit with current Sixers players than I am about what it means to start building around him.

To boil it down, I'm wary about committing to choosing as your cornerstone player a guy who needs the ball in his hands and is not a great shooter. It can work for sure, but for it to work Simmons has to be a top 10 star (unless Embiid owns the world, which could happen:)

Dwyane Wade
LeBron James
Russell Westbrook
Magic Johnson
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
Clyde Drexler
etc.

Oh and Michael Jordan...

Two way players that distribute at a high level don't have to be able to shoot.

[tk76]

Embiid Simmons.

Won't Embiid clog the paint for Simmons? Won't Embiid and Simmons both play at high post? Wouldn't Simmons be maximized better playing with a stretch 4 like Bosh or Love?

I see Embiid as the perfect C to run with Simmons. Embiid can punish smaller players in the post, and yet can shoot well enough to draw his defender out to guard against a pick and pop. He is a bigger Ibaka with better post scoring potential.

Teams are going to have to guard Simmons with a swingman in order to e able to deal with his quickness. And that type of player won't be able to switch onto Embiid. And if they don't switch, the either Embiid will be open on a roll to the rim, or Simmons will be able to drive into the lane and score over his defender.

[tk76]

Dwyane Wade
LeBron James
Russell Westbrook
Magic Johnson
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
Clyde Drexler
etc.

Two way players that distribute at a high level don't have to be able to shoot.

Most of those guys can shoot. Most are also super-elite explosive athletes.

I agree that Simmons could become a HOF level star like the second tier guys you listed (a notch below the MJ/Lebron tier)... if he develops a jumper of the same caliber of Drexler/MJ/Hill. Simmons lacks the explosiveness of Wade, Lebron and Westbrook, but might also trail athletically Drexler and Hill. While Magic and Penny were more unique for their era in being able to tower over their competition. Pt forwards are not as unheard of these days, and you have several SF's that are about Simmons' size.)

[Sixerscan]

Btw, the Warriors defense is significantly better when bogut is in the game. They just run the death lineup because it's so devastating on offense. its better at least on defense to have an actual rim protector.

[tk76]

You keeps saying "if Simmons misses" and it's incredible non-descript. If what aspect of Simmons misses? Because he does several things on the basketball court and has his eggs distributed in multiple baskets.

If his shot never develops, he still has his transition offense, rebounding, steal generating, facilitation, slashing, and finishing at the rim.

To me it is pretty much the shooting. I think he might become a decent enough shooter, but I'm not convinced. Like I've posted before, if he is a primary ball handler on offense then he at least needs to be a threat to shoot from certain spots (maybe a true explosive freak like Lebron or Westbook can get away with this, but I don't see Simmons in that class athletically.) While if he is your PF on defense, then he will be a plus on P&R defense, solid on the boards (for a PF) and a negative in terms of rim protection and ability to switch onto centers.

In all scenarios, Simmons will be a tremendous fast break threat by taking rebounds coast to coast (sort of like a young Barkley in that regard.) His court vision will always be a great asset. But I don't see him as a great complementary player unless he can have a respectable jumper or a great post game. And if he has that jumper... then he will be a heck of a lot better than just a complementary piece.

The only scenario where I see Simmons as being just a great role player is if somehow he become a 6'10" Rondo where he actually is your PG (like a taller Penny/Livingston.) That is an interesting scenario, but sort of hard to imagine.

So I see the jumper as his swing skill. I don't think he is freakish enough like Lebron or Westbrook to where he dominates regardless. And if that shot is a 50:50 proposition, then he should be the pick. But if he is just a guy who was born without touch (MCW/Rondo/MKG) then I'd go with Ingram.

[Unbreakable99]

Embiid Simmons.

Won't Embiid clog the paint for Simmons? Won't Embiid and Simmons both play at high post? Wouldn't Simmons be maximized better playing with a stretch 4 like Bosh or Love?

Simmons I'd imagine is best maximized playing Heat role with Bosh as stretch big and with another rim protector perimeter player (i'm guessing wall or jimmy butler) and a couple of 3&D.

I don't see how Noel/Biid would work, specially with Simmons.

If this is the case then who will be playing down low? We won't have anyone in the middle?

[PhilasFinest]

Lamar Odom and Draymond Green have how many Finals appearances between them? I'm pretty sure a non-superstar Ben Simmons will fit just fine as a complimentary player on a contender. Hell, even Evan Turner was a key member on a 45+ win Boston team.

This. It's simply a matter of preference.

Even if Simmons doesn't reach his ceiling I fail to see how you can't fit him into a winning team.

Odom,Green,Diaw etc. All of them had 0 issues fitting into winning teams.

[Unbreakable99]

Lol at the tweet.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/pompeyonsixers/status/738424793763045380[/tweet]

[PhilasFinest]

Embiid Simmons.

Won't Embiid clog the paint for Simmons? Won't Embiid and Simmons both play at high post? Wouldn't Simmons be maximized better playing with a stretch 4 like Bosh or Love?

Do you have a prime bosh or love handy lol?

Love is actually the definition of a guy that wants to play on the high post. Now that he's playing with bron he's not nearly as effective.

Embiud didn't play much high post at Kansas and I'm not sure why that would change...

Yup. Ideally you want Embiid Low post. Simmons can operate in the high post, but will also be on the perimeter a lot too. His passing should create easy buckets for Embiid and Embiid also likely has the ability to pop and stretch the Defense out to the 3 point line.

Both are good rebounders, Embiid is a decent shot blocker and they are athletic enough to switch and not be at a huge disadvantage.

I fail to see how the 2 hypothetically cant be a dynamic front court capable of driving opposing teams nuts...and that's without the added dimension of a jumper which I belive will come in Simmons' game.

[Mik317]

A lot easier than being KD and LBJ.

Both Kawhi and George have arguably the same base rate with Ingram. They started off with little guard skills but with elite length, average skillset and good athleticism.

LBJ and KD are more of freak of nature type wings. They started off being phenoms and dominant wing players in this league.

Kwahii went to the goddam Spurs to develop, and is a much better athlete than Ingram. George is just a freak athlete all around. Ingram becoming either isn't as easy as you make it to be. Becoming a top 10 player is hard. Yes become LeBron or Durant is harder..but I don't think most people think Simmons can be that with ease either. To reach these levels, these guys will need to overcome some things that they may never overcome

again I get it but you continue to use some weird as logic leaps to support your views man. You cannot say its going to be hard for Simmons to become LeBron good but then turn around and say Ingram totally can be Paul George tho. This is the weird double standard I take issue with. And then any Simmons supporter is accused of thinking he's perfect...when its probably the Ingram camp that takes this stand more than anything.

A lot easier than being KD and LBJ.

Both Kawhi and George have arguably the same base rate with Ingram. They started off with little guard skills but with elite length, average skillset and good athleticism.

LBJ and KD are more of freak of nature type wings. They started off being phenoms and dominant wing players in this league.

Kwahii went to the goddam Spurs to develop, and is a much better athlete than Ingram. George is just a freak athlete all around. Ingram becoming either isn't as easy as you make it to be. Becoming a top 10 player is hard. Yes become LeBron or Durant is harder..but I don't think most people think Simmons can be that with ease either. To reach these levels, these guys will need to overcome some things that they may never overcome

again I get it but you continue to use some weird as logic leaps to support your views man. You cannot say its going to be hard for Simmons to become LeBron good but then turn around and say Ingram totally can be Paul George tho. This is the weird double standard I take issue with. And then any Simmons supporter is accused of thinking he's perfect...when its probably the Ingram camp that takes this stand more than anything.

Ok.

Which is easier?

Simmons becoming LeBron or Ingram becoming Paul George?

I didn't say it's easy. I said, it's a lot easier. Of if it suits you.. less difficult.

No **** its harder to become Lebron than Paul George....but why does Simmons have to be LeBron good? What if he is "only" Paul George good?

You are placing Simmons on a different pedestal in an attempt to prove that Ingram is better and it is **** weird. The same requirements you place for Simmons somehow doesn't apply for Ingram. This is my problem with many of your arguments. Simmons has to become a better shooter. Again I will not deny that. His effort defensively also has to improve. These are known facts. But the idea behind most of your arguments is that it basically won't happen, therefore pass on him...and that isn't fair at all. You are going out of your way to constantly find every Tom , Dick and Harry who has some discouraging **** to say about Simmons...when at the end of the day...it is the same ****; he sucks at shooting and he acted like a chode at times in terms of effort. And yet whenever Ingram's flaws are pointed out, the rebuttle is basically "oh well he's 19, so he'll get better" which isn't fair especially since that means 20 year olds can't improve at all..which means Ingram only has one year of improvement before he's done amirite? Yeah Ingram is crazy long, a great kid by all accounts, can shoot, and yes is pretty young. All are great things. But what if adding weight...makes him slower? What if despite his great length, he never improves at finishing at the rim...extra strength or not? What if he just never adds strength. People point to Durant and Giannis but I can point to Noel...some dudes just can't add much weight beyond a point. These are things that could in fact happen. And lets say he does get stronger and all that jazz...what if he never becomes that go to guy? Is that really worth tanking for? A glorified Rashard Lewis type? Here is the thing, I love Ingrams game and potential. Unlike many here, I am not acting like it is lock on who is better. For one...no one really knows. However I wish that those who are entrenched on their guy, would start at least trying to be fair. You aren't right now. Simmons has flaws. Ones to be very concerned about. I agree with Kobble that at worst, he is a swiss army knife type which is useful to have but you don't tank for those but by the same token at Inrgam's worst, he's a longer Covington...also not tank worthy. Both guys have potential to be really good. You can have your favorite but how about we talk about the good things your favorite does instead of spending all of your time trashing the other? It doesn't help your case as now I really want to see how you spin it when your guy fails.

[Sixerscan]

Lol at the tweet.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/pompeyonsixers/status/738424793763045380[/tweet]

Wouldn't shock me if this was so we could get him and more importantly Ingram (same agency) to work out for us.

[Stanford]

Lol at the tweet.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/pompeyonsixers/status/738424793763045380[/tweet]

Predicting the General Board thread:

"Sixers Strongly Considering Jamal Murray with First Pick"

[Unbreakable99]

When the Sixers draft Simmons are people going to stop talking about Ingram or are they going to keep saying we should have drafted Ingram?

[Negrodamus]

When the Sixers draft Simmons are people going to stop talking about Ingram or are they going to keep saying we should have drafted Ingram?

I probably stop talking about him since this is the Sixers board.

I will, however, bring him up if we Evan Turner this pick. Kinda like what I did when we didn't draft Cousins. It won't be too obnoxious though.

[Negrodamus]

You keeps saying "if Simmons misses" and it's incredible non-descript. If what aspect of Simmons misses? Because he does several things on the basketball court and has his eggs distributed in multiple baskets.

If his shot never develops, he still has his transition offense, rebounding, steal generating, facilitation, slashing, and finishing at the rim.

To me it is pretty much the shooting. I think he might become a decent enough shooter, but I'm not convinced. Like I've posted before, if he is a primary ball handler on offense then he at least needs to be a threat to shoot from certain spots (maybe a true explosive freak like Lebron or Westbook can get away with this, but I don't see Simmons in that class athletically.) While if he is your PF on defense, then he will be a plus on P&R defense, solid on the boards (for a PF) and a negative in terms of rim protection and ability to switch onto centers.

In all scenarios, Simmons will be a tremendous fast break threat by taking rebounds coast to coast (sort of like a young Barkley in that regard.) His court vision will always be a great asset. But I don't see him as a great complementary player unless he can have a respectable jumper or a great post game. And if he has that jumper... then he will be a heck of a lot better than just a complementary piece.

The only scenario where I see Simmons as being just a great role player is if somehow he become a 6'10" Rondo where he actually is your PG (like a taller Penny/Livingston.) That is an interesting scenario, but sort of hard to imagine.

So I see the jumper as his swing skill. I don't think he is freakish enough like Lebron or Westbrook to where he dominates regardless. And if that shot is a 50:50 proposition, then he should be the pick. But if he is just a guy who was born without touch (MCW/Rondo/MKG) then I'd go with Ingram.

I really think the realistic scenario for him is a shorter in length/height, worse defensive version of Giannis. Both suck at shooting.

Here's a peek into our future: http://www.brewhoop.com/2016/3/31/11327694/giannis-antetokounmpo-jump-shot-jabari-parker-khris-middleton

[Negrodamus]

Every time I see Ingram I'm amazed just how skinny he is. I mean, it's beyond skinny. Like Manute Bol skinny. Arms and legs like sticks.

While I'm on the subject of Giannis, I'd say he looks like a pre-rookie Giannis:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oaw0_zw9LGs[/youtube]

[Kobblehead]

Lamar Odom and Draymond Green have how many Finals appearances between them? I'm pretty sure a non-superstar Ben Simmons will fit just fine as a complimentary player on a contender. Hell, even Evan Turner was a key member on a 45+ win Boston team.

This. It's simply a matter of preference.

Even if Simmons doesn't reach his ceiling I fail to see how you can't fit him into a winning team.

Odom,Green,Diaw etc. All of them had 0 issues fitting into winning teams.

Yup. And on the contrary, what if Brandon Ingram's 3pt shot (aided by being assisted on 95% of his makes) doesn't translate when he's asked to create for himself? He doesn't do much else on the floor to salvage his value.

The dude literally made a backwards point.