Hassan Whiteside: Road To The Max II

[HIF]

Holy crap, that was rough. Where's HeatFanDan at? I'm serving as an example today.

DoM should suspend himself.

[IggieCC]

Re: Hassan Whiteside: Road To The Max II: Page 14

Numbers of names mentioned:

Gloria Estefan 2
eddie 2
papi 1
goodboy 1
Hassan Whiteside 1

>

[goodboy]

Re: Hassan Whiteside: Road To The Max II: Page 14

Numbers of names mentioned:

Gloria Estefan 2
eddie 2
papi 1
goodboy 1
Hassan Whiteside 1

>

[DeeDub]

Spoiler:

Not sure why you're rolling your eyes. Wade took a slight cut to bring in Lebron and Bosh early in his career to build a dynasty. I just don't see any reason for Wade to take 5-6M less to retain Whiteside and still not have depth. 2 totally different situations.

That's not the only time he's signed for less than what he is worth...he took the biggest discount of the big 3 btw. That was more for Udonis Haslem than anyone else.

Wade would do it for Hassan for the same reason Dragic did it for Wade. It wasn't expected, but it happened anyway. There's precedence. He has expressed that he wants to re-sign here without the drama.

I think that has been a bad assumption that Dragic took less. There was an interview where the interviewer ask him about taking less, and he paused in confusion and responded I didnt take less and the interviewer just went to the next question. I know many assumed Dragic was gonna get max, but he didnt.

It's not a bad assumption, its a fact. Dragic did take less than the max. He was eligible to receive more. I don't know whether, or to what extent, he and the Heat discussed the full max, but even if it was never offered it doesn't mean he didn't take less than the max. He absolutely did. And it was widely reported (initially by a Ramona Shelburne tweet, I believe) that before signing the deal Dragic asked Riley how he could help the Heat be flexible so it would have enough to be able to re-sign Wade.

[HIF]

Spoiler:

That's not the only time he's signed for less than what he is worth...he took the biggest discount of the big 3 btw. That was more for Udonis Haslem than anyone else.

Wade would do it for Hassan for the same reason Dragic did it for Wade. It wasn't expected, but it happened anyway. There's precedence. He has expressed that he wants to re-sign here without the drama.

I think that has been a bad assumption that Dragic took less. There was an interview where the interviewer ask him about taking less, and he paused in confusion and responded I didnt take less and the interviewer just went to the next question. I know many assumed Dragic was gonna get max, but he didnt.

It's not a bad assumption, its a fact. Dragic did take less than the max. He was eligible to receive more. I don't know whether, or to what extent, he and the Heat discussed the full max, but even if it was never offered it doesn't mean he didn't take less than the max. He absolutely did. And it was widely reported (initially by a Ramona Shelburne tweet, I believe) that before signing the deal Dragic asked Riley how he could help the Heat be flexible so it would have enough to be able to re-sign Wade.

You have to be offered the max to take less than it.

Riley isn't so stupid.

UD took less than the max last year.

[puppa bear]

I think that has been a bad assumption that Dragic took less. There was an interview where the interviewer ask him about taking less, and he paused in confusion and responded I didnt take less and the interviewer just went to the next question. I know many assumed Dragic was gonna get max, but he didnt.

It's not a bad assumption, its a fact. Dragic did take less than the max. He was eligible to receive more. I don't know whether, or to what extent, he and the Heat discussed the full max, but even if it was never offered it doesn't mean he didn't take less than the max. He absolutely did. And it was widely reported (initially by a Ramona Shelburne tweet, I believe) that before signing the deal Dragic asked Riley how he could help the Heat be flexible so it would have enough to be able to re-sign Wade.

You have to be offered the max to take less than it.

Riley isn't so stupid.

UD took less than the max last year.

UD has been doing the team thing & taking a discount on the max for years!

Chalmers took less than max for the team as well!

[Jody Smokz]

How'd that work out for Chalmers?

It's not a bad assumption, its a fact. Dragic did take less than the max. He was eligible to receive more. I don't know whether, or to what extent, he and the Heat discussed the full max, but even if it was never offered it doesn't mean he didn't take less than the max. He absolutely did. And it was widely reported (initially by a Ramona Shelburne tweet, I believe) that before signing the deal Dragic asked Riley how he could help the Heat be flexible so it would have enough to be able to re-sign Wade.

You have to be offered the max to take less than it.

Riley isn't so stupid.

UD took less than the max last year.

UD has been doing the team thing & taking a discount on the max for years!

Chalmers took less than max for the team as well!

[HIF]

How'd that work out for Chalmers?

You have to be offered the max to take less than it.

Riley isn't so stupid.

UD took less than the max last year.

UD has been doing the team thing & taking a discount on the max for years!

Chalmers took less than max for the team as well!

Couple of rings - How's Andrew Bynum these days?

[DeeDub]

I think that has been a bad assumption that Dragic took less. There was an interview where the interviewer ask him about taking less, and he paused in confusion and responded I didnt take less and the interviewer just went to the next question. I know many assumed Dragic was gonna get max, but he didnt.

It's not a bad assumption, its a fact. Dragic did take less than the max. He was eligible to receive more. I don't know whether, or to what extent, he and the Heat discussed the full max, but even if it was never offered it doesn't mean he didn't take less than the max. He absolutely did. And it was widely reported (initially by a Ramona Shelburne tweet, I believe) that before signing the deal Dragic asked Riley how he could help the Heat be flexible so it would have enough to be able to re-sign Wade.

You have to be offered the max to take less than it.

Riley isn't so stupid.

UD took less than the max last year.

Nonsense. In order to take less than the max all you have to do is sign a deal for less than the max. That may mean more for some players than for others, but it is true for everyone.

If the Shelburne report is true -- that Dragic asked Riley how he could help the team re-sign Wade -- it would be wholly unsurprising for the team to respond that he could take less than the max. I guess your view is that if that conversation took place before the max was offered, it doesn't count as taking less than max because the max wasn't actually formally offered. That's ridiculous. You seem to think that the team must formally offer the max and the player must then say "no, I refuse to sign this max deal because I want to leave money to sign other players" in order for it to count as a player taking less than he could have gotten in order to help pay other players. And, of course, the issue isn't really whether he was offered the max and took less, but whether he took less than he could have gotten. As to that latter point, it's pretty clear that Dragic did. First, he didn't bother to even talk to or take meetings with other teams. Second, the one team (Miami) he did talk to he apparently asked how he could help keep Wade. Pretty sure the answer to that question was to take a little less than he might otherwise take.

[caliban]

So let's hear what you guys think.

A) Will Hassan stay? Yes or no.
B) if yes, how much will he sign for? If no, to what team will he go?

[Hallstar]

Spoiler:

That's not the only time he's signed for less than what he is worth...he took the biggest discount of the big 3 btw. That was more for Udonis Haslem than anyone else.

Wade would do it for Hassan for the same reason Dragic did it for Wade. It wasn't expected, but it happened anyway. There's precedence. He has expressed that he wants to re-sign here without the drama.

I think that has been a bad assumption that Dragic took less. There was an interview where the interviewer ask him about taking less, and he paused in confusion and responded I didnt take less and the interviewer just went to the next question. I know many assumed Dragic was gonna get max, but he didnt.

It's not a bad assumption, its a fact. Dragic did take less than the max. He was eligible to receive more. I don't know whether, or to what extent, he and the Heat discussed the full max, but even if it was never offered it doesn't mean he didn't take less than the max. He absolutely did. And it was widely reported (initially by a Ramona Shelburne tweet, I believe) that before signing the deal Dragic asked Riley how he could help the Heat be flexible so it would have enough to be able to re-sign Wade.

Time to kill this foolishness, Dragic was NEVER worth the max, was NEVER offered the max, would NEVER be offered the max by anyone.

JR Smith has "taken" less than the max his entire career. Let's applaud him

[twix2500]

It's not a bad assumption, its a fact. Dragic did take less than the max. He was eligible to receive more. I don't know whether, or to what extent, he and the Heat discussed the full max, but even if it was never offered it doesn't mean he didn't take less than the max. He absolutely did. And it was widely reported (initially by a Ramona Shelburne tweet, I believe) that before signing the deal Dragic asked Riley how he could help the Heat be flexible so it would have enough to be able to re-sign Wade.

You have to be offered the max to take less than it.

Riley isn't so stupid.

UD took less than the max last year.

Nonsense. In order to take less than the max all you have to do is sign a deal for less than the max. That may mean more for some players than for others, but it is true for everyone.

If the Shelburne report is true -- that Dragic asked Riley how he could help the team re-sign Wade -- it would be wholly unsurprising for the team to respond that he could take less than the max. I guess your view is that if that conversation took place before the max was offered, it doesn't count as taking less than max because the max wasn't actually formally offered. That's ridiculous. You seem to think that the team must formally offer the max and the player must then say "no, I refuse to sign this max deal because I want to leave money to sign other players" in order for it to count as a player taking less than he could have gotten in order to help pay other players. And, of course, the issue isn't really whether he was offered the max and took less, but whether he took less than he could have gotten. As to that latter point, it's pretty clear that Dragic did. First, he didn't bother to even talk to or take meetings with other teams. Second, the one team (Miami) he did talk to he apparently asked how he could help keep Wade. Pretty sure the answer to that question was to take a little less than he might otherwise take.

Most likely it's structure the contract in a way that gives room now and get more later. Not take less. It's like when we signed Lamar. Front loaded the deal so Clippers wouldn't match. The value of the contract is the same just how it's stretch out.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

[DeeDub]

I think that has been a bad assumption that Dragic took less. There was an interview where the interviewer ask him about taking less, and he paused in confusion and responded I didnt take less and the interviewer just went to the next question. I know many assumed Dragic was gonna get max, but he didnt.

It's not a bad assumption, its a fact. Dragic did take less than the max. He was eligible to receive more. I don't know whether, or to what extent, he and the Heat discussed the full max, but even if it was never offered it doesn't mean he didn't take less than the max. He absolutely did. And it was widely reported (initially by a Ramona Shelburne tweet, I believe) that before signing the deal Dragic asked Riley how he could help the Heat be flexible so it would have enough to be able to re-sign Wade.

Time to kill this foolishness, Dragic was NEVER worth the max, was NEVER offered the max, would NEVER be offered the max by anyone.

JR Smith has "taken" less than the max his entire career. Let's applaud him

If you want to kill the foolishness, just stop spewing nonsense.

"Dragic was never worth the max" -- In 13-14, Dragic averaged 20 ppg, 6 apg, 3 rpg, 1.4 spg and shot 50% from the field and 40% from 3. Last year, Reggie Jackson got the max after just 76 career starts and coming off his best season, which was 14.5 ppg, 6 apg, 4 rpg, 0.8 spg on 43% from the field and less than 30% from 3. Wesley Matthews got the max coming off a season-ending Achilles injury after having never been better than 16.4 ppg, 2.5 apg, 3 rpg, 45% shooting and 40% from 3. Tristan Thompson got the max coming off a 7.7 ppg season. Enes Kanter got the max. Brook Lopez got the max. So yeah, Dragic has been worth the max.

"was NEVER offered the max" -- this is your assumption with absolutely no basis in fact or evidence. You simply have no F'ing idea. None. But clearly, Riley was prepared to give him the max when he made the trade. Nobody on earth, and certainly not Riley, would have done that trade if they weren't prepared to offer the max if necessary to keep him. When the trade was made, they obviously hoped Dragic would flourish in Miami. And if he had, and exceeded his 13-14 production, the idea that Riley would have just let him walk for nothing is absurd.

"would NEVER be offered the max by anyone" -- Again, a statement with no basis in fact or evidence. The max deals for Jackson, Matthews, Thompson, Kanter and Lopez strongly suggest that your claim probably isn't true. It's important to keep in mind, of course, that the "max" is different for the current team than it is for other teams. The $86 million that Dragic got from Miami is actually more than he could have gotten from any other team, even in a max deal.

JR Smith is a poor example because he's never been offered close to the max. Dragic has. He got around 85% of the max. You seem to think that he scrapped and clawed for every last penny he could get and Riley wouldn't have paid one cent more, but the reports from the time and the circumstances strongly suggest otherwise. Had Riley balked there and Dragic left for a few extra bucks, leaving the Heat without the draft picks it traded to Phoenix and without Dragic or anything for him, Riley would have been the laughingstock of the league.

[DeeDub]

You have to be offered the max to take less than it.

Riley isn't so stupid.

UD took less than the max last year.

Nonsense. In order to take less than the max all you have to do is sign a deal for less than the max. That may mean more for some players than for others, but it is true for everyone.

If the Shelburne report is true -- that Dragic asked Riley how he could help the team re-sign Wade -- it would be wholly unsurprising for the team to respond that he could take less than the max. I guess your view is that if that conversation took place before the max was offered, it doesn't count as taking less than max because the max wasn't actually formally offered. That's ridiculous. You seem to think that the team must formally offer the max and the player must then say "no, I refuse to sign this max deal because I want to leave money to sign other players" in order for it to count as a player taking less than he could have gotten in order to help pay other players. And, of course, the issue isn't really whether he was offered the max and took less, but whether he took less than he could have gotten. As to that latter point, it's pretty clear that Dragic did. First, he didn't bother to even talk to or take meetings with other teams. Second, the one team (Miami) he did talk to he apparently asked how he could help keep Wade. Pretty sure the answer to that question was to take a little less than he might otherwise take.

Most likely it's structure the contract in a way that gives room now and get more later. Not take less. It's like when we signed Lamar. Front loaded the deal so Clippers wouldn't match. The value of the contract is the same just how it's stretch out.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

Dragic's deal isn't front loaded at all. It includes the 7.5% maximum annual increases.

[RexBoyWonder]

So let's hear what you guys think.

A) Will Hassan stay? Yes or no.
B) if yes, how much will he sign for? If no, to what team will he go?

A) Yes
B) Just a little less than complete Max (He'll end up making the same money as he could've made with any other non early bird state tax team).

[caliban]

So let's hear what you guys think.

A) Will Hassan stay? Yes or no.
B) if yes, how much will he sign for? If no, to what team will he go?

A) Yes
B) Just a little less than complete Max (He'll end up making the same money as he could've made with any other non early bird state tax team).

Then we're in total agreement Rex. He'll stay with a salary starting at 20M.

[DeeDub]

So let's hear what you guys think.

A) Will Hassan stay? Yes or no.
B) if yes, how much will he sign for? If no, to what team will he go?

A) Yes
B) Just a little less than complete Max (He'll end up making the same money as he could've made with any other non early bird state tax team).

Then we're in total agreement Rex. He'll stay with a salary starting at 20M.

That's my thinking as well. I wouldn't be too surprised if he did a 3 yr deal with the 3rd year a player's option or a 4 yr deal with the last year an option. That might be a happy medium between lifetime financial security and the ability to cash in on the rising cap if he continues to improve.

[Hallstar]

It's not a bad assumption, its a fact. Dragic did take less than the max. He was eligible to receive more. I don't know whether, or to what extent, he and the Heat discussed the full max, but even if it was never offered it doesn't mean he didn't take less than the max. He absolutely did. And it was widely reported (initially by a Ramona Shelburne tweet, I believe) that before signing the deal Dragic asked Riley how he could help the Heat be flexible so it would have enough to be able to re-sign Wade.

Time to kill this foolishness, Dragic was NEVER worth the max, was NEVER offered the max, would NEVER be offered the max by anyone.

JR Smith has "taken" less than the max his entire career. Let's applaud him

If you want to kill the foolishness, just stop spewing nonsense.

"Dragic was never worth the max" -- In 13-14, Dragic averaged 20 ppg, 6 apg, 3 rpg, 1.4 spg and shot 50% from the field and 40% from 3. Last year, Reggie Jackson got the max after just 76 career starts and coming off his best season, which was 14.5 ppg, 6 apg, 4 rpg, 0.8 spg on 43% from the field and less than 30% from 3. Wesley Matthews got the max coming off a season-ending Achilles injury after having never been better than 16.4 ppg, 2.5 apg, 3 rpg, 45% shooting and 40% from 3. Tristan Thompson got the max coming off a 7.7 ppg season. Enes Kanter got the max. Brook Lopez got the max. So yeah, Dragic has been worth the max.

"was NEVER offered the max" -- this is your assumption with absolutely no basis in fact or evidence. You simply have no F'ing idea. None. But clearly, Riley was prepared to give him the max when he made the trade. Nobody on earth, and certainly not Riley, would have done that trade if they weren't prepared to offer the max if necessary to keep him. When the trade was made, they obviously hoped Dragic would flourish in Miami. And if he had, and exceeded his 13-14 production, the idea that Riley would have just let him walk for nothing is absurd.

"would NEVER be offered the max by anyone" -- Again, a statement with no basis in fact or evidence. The max deals for Jackson, Matthews, Thompson, Kanter and Lopez strongly suggest that your claim probably isn't true. It's important to keep in mind, of course, that the "max" is different for the current team than it is for other teams. The $90 million that Dragic got from Miami is actually more than he could have gotten from any other team, even in a max deal.

JR Smith is a poor example because he's never been offered close to the max. Dragic has. He got around 85% of the max. You seem to think that he scrapped and clawed for every last penny he could get and Riley wouldn't have paid one cent more, but the reports from the time and the circumstances strongly suggest otherwise. Had Riley balked there and Dragic left for a few extra bucks, leaving the Heat without the draft picks it traded to Phoenix and without Dragic or anything for him, Riley would have been the laughingstock of the league.

The max for Dragic was something crazy like 115 million. He got 85. Nobody is leaving 30 million on the table on their 1st big deal of their career if they could get it.

He got around what he was supposed to and even then I thought he was overpaid compared to what Bledsoe and Lowry were paid.

Dragic can't live off one year forever, but he's making a run at it on the Heat board.

[DeeDub]

Time to kill this foolishness, Dragic was NEVER worth the max, was NEVER offered the max, would NEVER be offered the max by anyone.

JR Smith has "taken" less than the max his entire career. Let's applaud him

If you want to kill the foolishness, just stop spewing nonsense.

"Dragic was never worth the max" -- In 13-14, Dragic averaged 20 ppg, 6 apg, 3 rpg, 1.4 spg and shot 50% from the field and 40% from 3. Last year, Reggie Jackson got the max after just 76 career starts and coming off his best season, which was 14.5 ppg, 6 apg, 4 rpg, 0.8 spg on 43% from the field and less than 30% from 3. Wesley Matthews got the max coming off a season-ending Achilles injury after having never been better than 16.4 ppg, 2.5 apg, 3 rpg, 45% shooting and 40% from 3. Tristan Thompson got the max coming off a 7.7 ppg season. Enes Kanter got the max. Brook Lopez got the max. So yeah, Dragic has been worth the max.

"was NEVER offered the max" -- this is your assumption with absolutely no basis in fact or evidence. You simply have no F'ing idea. None. But clearly, Riley was prepared to give him the max when he made the trade. Nobody on earth, and certainly not Riley, would have done that trade if they weren't prepared to offer the max if necessary to keep him. When the trade was made, they obviously hoped Dragic would flourish in Miami. And if he had, and exceeded his 13-14 production, the idea that Riley would have just let him walk for nothing is absurd.

"would NEVER be offered the max by anyone" -- Again, a statement with no basis in fact or evidence. The max deals for Jackson, Matthews, Thompson, Kanter and Lopez strongly suggest that your claim probably isn't true. It's important to keep in mind, of course, that the "max" is different for the current team than it is for other teams. The $90 million that Dragic got from Miami is actually more than he could have gotten from any other team, even in a max deal.

JR Smith is a poor example because he's never been offered close to the max. Dragic has. He got around 85% of the max. You seem to think that he scrapped and clawed for every last penny he could get and Riley wouldn't have paid one cent more, but the reports from the time and the circumstances strongly suggest otherwise. Had Riley balked there and Dragic left for a few extra bucks, leaving the Heat without the draft picks it traded to Phoenix and without Dragic or anything for him, Riley would have been the laughingstock of the league.

The max for Dragic was something crazy like 115 million. He got 85. Nobody is leaving 30 million on the table on their 1st big deal of their career if they could get it.

He got around what he was supposed to and even then I thought he was overpaid compared to what Bledsoe and Lowry were paid.

Dragic can't live off one year forever, but he's making a run at it on the Heat board.

The max for Dragic was $106 million, I believe. But that was over 5 years and no other team could have offered him 5 years. And no other team could offer the 7.5% annual raises. So he got a lot more from the Heat than he could have gotten with any other team on a max deal. He'll be 33 when that 5th year rolls around, so having that guaranteed year at big bucks makes a big difference.

As for living off one good year, his 2014-15 season was still better than anything Reggie Jackson or Wesley Matthews had done prior to signing their max contracts.

[puppa bear]

So let's hear what you guys think.

A) Will Hassan stay? Yes or no.
B) if yes, how much will he sign for? If no, to what team will he go?

A) yes
B) $20m starting salary.

I think ego will get in the way of getting him below the $20m mark, but I may be wrong (I hope I'm wrong) and he signs for $80m over 4 years, with annual raises.