2016 NBA Draft

Post #121 » by **mkwest** » Thu Jun 2, 2016 2:21 am

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RowanKavner/status/738169949437337600[/tweet]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OENQoq8FAaE[/youtube]

madmaxmedia · Post #122 » by **madmaxmedia** » Thu Jun 2, 2016 6:14 pm

Quake Griffin wrote:We can stop saying OKC is having the same problem building around their 2 stars as we do.

They can't get out of the second round either? 8-)

madmaxmedia · Post #123 » by **madmaxmedia** » Thu Jun 2, 2016 6:16 pm

I wonder what they came away with in Zhou Qi's workout. I would give him a flyer if he worked out well, and is really as young as listed. And of course if he's available, which I kind of doubt if the other 2 'ifs' check out.

Post #124 » by **mkwest** » Fri Jun 3, 2016 6:45 am

[tweet]https://twitter.com/JCameratoCSN/status/738417240303865857[/tweet]
Draft Express - 81st
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn_SC2EEHjE[/youtube]

Post #125 » by **mkwest** » Fri Jun 3, 2016 10:50 pm

[tweet]https://twitter.com/ZachEliAuguste/status/738432765578731521[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RowanKavner/status/738853382455070721[/tweet]

Isaiah Cousins, SG - 6'5, 194 lbs, Sr.
Draft Express - 65th
NBADraft.net - 43rd

Spoiler:

Fred VanVleet, PG - 6'1, 195 lbs, Sr.
Draft Express - 85th
NBADraft.net - unranked

Spoiler:

Taurean Prince, SF - 6'8, 220 lbs, Sr.
Draft Express - 16th
NBADraft.net - 25th

Spoiler:

Georges Niang, F - 6'9, 231 lbs, Sr.
Draft Express - 70th
NBADraft.net - unranked

Spoiler:

Jameel Mckay, PF - 6'9, 210 lbs, Sr.
Draft Express - unranked, 46th - seniors
NBADraft.net

Spoiler:

Joel Bolomboy, {F - 6'9, 224 lbs, Sr.
Draft Express - 58th
NBADraft.net - 34th

Spoiler:

illastrate · Post #126 » by **illastrate** » Fri Jun 3, 2016 11:58 pm

Really intrigued by Taurean Prince, if he's still available at #25, Clips should nab him.

Post #127 » by **mkwest** » Sun Jun 5, 2016 9:59 pm

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/739548559440269313[/tweet]

Post #128 » by **og15** » Sun Jun 5, 2016 11:41 pm

illastrate wrote:Really intrigued by Taurean Prince, if he's still available at #25, Clips should nab him.

He looks like a guy who would really fit the Clippers, but I just can't see how he would fall past two Celtics picks. Draftexpress currently has him going 16th to the Celtics.

mkwest wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/739548559440269313[/tweet]

Maybe the afformentioned Prince is who they are targetting

Are we going to end up drafting mini Jamal Crawford? lol

illastrate · Post #129 » by **illastrate** » Mon Jun 6, 2016 7:32 pm

og15 wrote:
illastrate wrote:Really intrigued by Taurean Prince, if he's still available at #25, Clips should nab him.
He looks like a guy who would really fit the Clippers, but I just can't see how he would fall past two Celtics picks. Draftexpress currently has him going 16th to the Celtics.

mkwest wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/739548559440269313[/tweet]

Maybe the afformentioned Prince is who they are targetting

Are we going to end up drafting mini Jamal Crawford? lol

It's a possibility. I would love to move up to get Sabonis or Valentine, but don't think that's possible.

Ranma · Post #130 » by **Ranma** » Mon Jun 6, 2016 8:08 pm

QRich3 wrote:DraftExpress still has their latest version of their 2013 mock draft up: http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft.php/2013/

They had Bullock picked at 19, while Crabbe, Gobert and Franklin were in the mid-20's. I distinctly remember Bullock being considered the safest 3&D option outside of the lottery, not according to Doc, but according to most of the mock drafts and scouts online. I remember a few guys here wanting Bullock or Hardaway (who was gone before our pick), and some wanting Crabbe, but Crabbe refused to work out for us, so there's that.

We've been through this a million times, but Bullock's had the same lack of opportunities under Hornacek and Stan Van Gundy than he did under Doc (so did Crabbe until this year's teardown in Portland btw). Sometimes you pick the most likely guy to succeed and he doesn't. There's enough reasons to complain about Doc into context without needing to nitpick one small point in my post to turn yet another discussion into a hate thread that feeds your little obsession.

Anyway, I hope everyone puts their money where they mouth is, and say clearly who they want to be picked, instead of just using hindsight to keep on babbling about how terrible Doc is.

Let me see here. We were discussing what defines BPA and I argued that to mean the general consensus opinion of who the best player available is at a certain draft slot and yet you point to a single source with a mock draft that was updated minutes before the actual proceedings if you assume the time stamp is Eastern Standard Time. You do realize that a mock draft is not necessarily and in most cases not a big board ranking of prospects, right? What you call nitpick is what I'd like to think of as more accurately reading the pulse of the situation, so please spare me the continued indignation with my calling Doc out, especially if you're going to use poor excuses for his lame draft record.

First, let me say that I'm a big fan of Jonathan Givony's given the amount of effort and work he puts into his mock drafts. I've followed his work even before his DraftExpress (DX) days when he was at DraftCity.com and I've been a draftnik since the 1988 draft when the Clippers selected Danny Manning out of Kansas with the 1st overall pick.

In fact, DX came into existence because Givony was terminated from DraftCity because he refused to back down from calling out player agent Joel Bell for his questionable practices based on the multiple sources he'd interviewed. When Bell threatened to sue, the proprietor of DraftCity let Givony go and issued an apology to the agent. The site was shut down soon after, but it gave rise to DraftExpress.com under Givony's leadership. Bell and Givony eventually reached a $10,000 settlement. As it turned out, Bell was apparently DeAndre Jordan's agent during his draft year and inadvertently facilitated his drop down the draft board in 2008 to the Clippers at 35th overall by refusing to let DJ work out for teams drafting in the 20's. Thank you very much, scumbag.

Having said that, there are times where I've disagreed with Givony's rankings because I've read opinions from other sources as part of a cumulative whole in trying to gauge a consensus opinion as well as formulating my own personal draft board. However, for the most part, I highly value his opinion and generally agree with his assessments.

Second, there's a difference between a mock draft that was created before NBA pre-draft camps and one updated just minutes before the proceedings. Most early mock drafts are generally overall rankings of prospects in a big board fashion because the draft order isn't finalized while those updated during the days leading right up to the draft are based more on news gathered from team sources reflecting individual team's draft boards as well as false information to throw other teams off. As it was already pointed out, teams have become more and more proficient in blowing smoke in attempts to not be scooped by their rivals, which makes separating solid information from the rumor mill all the more difficult. Anybody who actually follows the draft should know this instead of going back after-the-fact and using it as some sort of ironclad evidence.

Take for example, SB Nation's NBA Mock Draft Roundup dated May 22nd, 2013 when NBA pre-draft camps were completed with team workouts still to be held. It shows DraftExpress projected Bullock at 27th overall to the Nuggets. In fact, of the 7 mock drafts listed, Bullock appeared for 1st-round consideration in only 4 of them. Meanwhile, Crabbe was listed in all 7 as a projected 1st-round selection and in every instance was placed higher than Bullock on the draft boards. Again, these mock drafts are more reflective of the author's own evaluation of prospects before they start moving names around to reflect the accuracy of what the final draft results will be based on information gathered from teams as opposed to personal assessments. Also, it seems suspect that Bullock would jump from 27th overall to 19th overall based on individual workouts with teams where he is facing less and no competition where he's basically running drills as opposed to playing against other highly regarded players trying to standout in the competitive environment of a pre-draft camp, especially when you consider how unathletic he is relative to other prospects. Athleticism is usually the sexiest trait that wows personnel evaluators in team workouts in order to convince them to change their draft boards previously set from scouting reports. Plus, I don't know about you but a red flag goes off for me when Bullock is placed ahead of Mason Plumlee among others in a final mock draft when he was not near such rankings previously and there was no word of him standing out in multiple team workouts. Seems like common sense to me.

Still not convinced? Let's see what Jay Bilas had to say during the draft when the Knicks were on the clock just ahead of the Clippers at 24th overall. The video cuts out in the middle but before that, Bilas lists his best available prospects in the following order: 1. Jamaal Franklin 2. Allen Crabbe 3. Tony Mitchell 4. Tim Hardaway, Jr. 5. Jeff Withey 6. Reggie Bullock. Notice how the panel doesn't mention Bullock's name for best player available but Crabbe's comes up multiple times.

Watch on YouTube

Like I said, Bullock was in the mix but there was more support for Crabbe as the best player and even shooter available. Seems odd to me that a supposedly clear-cut BPA would get no mention as such. Remember, consensus opinion involves more than one source, particularly going beyond a mock draft that doesn't necessarily and, in all likelihood, is not reflective of an assessment of a prospect's talent and potential. This is where fit and upside comes into play. The devil is in the details or is this too nitpicky for you?

While I wasn't particularly happy about the Bullock pick, I wasn't upset about it at the time because--contrary to some opinion--I was willing to give Doc a chance to prove himself. However, instead of continuing to make excuses for his failings with regard to the draft or team success, for that matter--I'll call him out on it. The thing that you still don't get is that I'm not focused just on purely results, but also on the process that has led up to our lack of progress. Drafting older prospects with limited upside who are supposedly safer and able to contribute immediately and not playing or developing them when you're also the coach putting together the offensive and defensive schemes is a big miss. Trading away draft picks to compensate for previous failed trades and signings is another example of wasting draft resources; it isn't, however, another excuse pointing to Doc's limited opportunity at the draft table.

It is and has been his mindset and approach that has kept us from pursuing the likes of Rudy Gobert and Nikola Jokic, who were both taken after Bullock and Wilcox in recent drafts and able to contribute fairly quickly for their respective teams. Before you go on another exasperated proclamation of how the draft is a crapshoot, I'm not saying that he should have hit on Gobert and Jokic as that would be unrealistic. What I'm saying is that Doc's tendencies prevents us from taking chances on such prospects as well as others with raw ability and higher upside. You've said it yourself, we have to settle for players who Doc will play. What exactly does that mean? He's already spent 2 draft picks on prospects who have higher floors and lower ceilings only to treat them as afterthoughts.

Therein lies the problem: we have to settle for a limited view of success in the worldview of Doc and his apologists. He's been slow to do things that any competent GM worth his salt would be focused on from the get-go. This year, he seems to finally be putting more resources and effort into evaluating the draft given the significantly increased number of workouts after an offseason he was barely able to purchase a 2nd-round pick. After 3 seasons of treading water, he seems to finally get that the draft is a valuable resource that can help build our roster. Meanwhile, teams like Golden State and Oklahoma City have surpassed the Clippers in roster construction with successful draft picks and reached higher levels of success in the postseason under 1st-year head coaches. Kerr got the Warriors a championship taking over for Mark Jackson. Donovan pushed the historic Warriors to 7 games in the Western Conference Finals following Scott Brooks' tenure. Doc takes over for Vinny Del Negro and fails to rise above VDN's postseason watermark after 3 seasons and complains about inheriting a bad cap situation despite a stacked deck in terms of talent (BG, CP, DJ) and assets (Bledsoe and draft picks).

His dismissive attitude towards the draft has come back to hurt him when this shouldn't have even been a problem to begin with. I keep seeing how you say that firing Doc would be a bigger risk with a possibly lesser coach and better GM. I'm no longer willing to accept such mediocrity. Doc has used up the benefit of the doubt given to him upon his hiring with high expectations to get us over the top. Learning on the job as GM and even coach is not what we were promised. His influence as a recruiter has waned as he's been exposed as more of a snake oil salesman than basketball genius. I've previously mentioned his positives but I'm in no mood to recount them as they do not outweigh his negatives. However, we're stuck with him for the foreseeable future so we can only hope that he continues to progress as a GM. This draft provides a big opportunity for him to build our roster with cost-effective talent and maybe improve his evaluation acumen. Excusing Doc's ineptitude while whining about how we could have been the Warriors or Thunder is myopic when you're enabling such mediocrity with the attitude of a settler.

With regards to my own history of draft preferences, I haven't shied away from disclosing my hits or misses. I've mentioned before how I wanted to trade down in the 1998 draft to get Vince Carter. I was hoping for Tim Hardaway, Jr. in the 2013 draft before the Knicks sniped him and, while I was ambivalent about Bullock, I preferred Jamaal Franklin and Glen Rice, Jr. at the time. We both wanted K.J. McDaniel over C.J. Wilcox in 2014. With regards to other picks overall, I'll admit I bought into Darko Milicic over Carmelo Anthony in the 2003 draft given my faith in then new GM Joe Dumars and the overall package of Darko versus the fairly 1-dimensional scoring of Melo. However, my top target was Dwayne Wade out of Marquette for the Clippers before Miami sniped us and we had to settle for Kaman. As a Bruin alumnus, I thought Ed O' Bannon would be the ideal small forward until I saw first-hand how his lack of grit prevented that from happening. However, I was spot on in picking Durant as the best player in the 2007 draft when Oden was taken 1st overall. I knew Andre Drummond was a steal at 9th overall in the 2012 draft and that Austin Rivers was a reach at 10th overall. The 2012 draft was the one where we had Minnesota's pick from the Marko Jaric trade and I was hoping for Harrison Barnes at the time before the pick was dealt in the CP3 trade. I also recall how impressed I was with Danny Granger performing in a Clippers workout despite having a bloodied sock but Dunleavy, Sr. had already promised the 12th overall selection slot in the 2005 draft to Yaroslav Korolev. I was early on Kyrie Irving as the top pick in the 2011 draft and identified Jimmy Butler as a late-first-round steal at the time. If you also recall, I was vocal quite early in my admiration of both D'Angelo Russell and Justise Winslow well before the 2015 draft. This year, I've been preoccupied with the NFL and MLB drafts given the Rams' return to Los Angeles and the Dodgers having multiple 1st-round selections, so I'm not as well versed on this year's crop of prospects for the NBA draft.

madmaxmedia · Post #131 » by **madmaxmedia** » Mon Jun 6, 2016 9:05 pm

I don't hate Doc, but I am afraid he is going to run this roster into the ground with his sole 'win now' focus. I am tired of always picking these high floor low ceiling types too, ironically when we've gone for high ceiling low floor types in the past we've had some nice success (DJ, Bledsoe.)

I don't know who in the FO should be the one looking at the long term of the franchise, the next 3 to 5 years. There needs to be someone to balance against Doc, who as head coach is going to be focused on the here and now. Whatever mistakes we've made in personnel the last 3-4 years, I think I blame the org as a whole as much as I do Doc.

Ranma · Post #132 » by **Ranma** » Mon Jun 6, 2016 9:15 pm

mkwest wrote:

Read on Twitter

As I've said before, I'd like to be encouraged by such rumors as that would imply that we have targeted a prospect who can presumably contribute to the team immediately. Maybe even exceeding expectations by getting a steal for the long-term. However, we're talking about Doc Rivers here. If it doesn't work out again, will he continue to make excuses and bemoan the fact that the draft is a crapshoot despite dealing 2 picks in a draft pool deep in talent at the selection slots he currently holds?

Upon further inspection, the tweet notes that the Clippers are telling agents (plural), which means they either have identified more than one prospect or are hoping and/or hearing one or more of the more higher-rated prospects will somehow tumble down the draft board to them, so they want to get first-hand looks at some of these players currently projected out of our range.

In any case, I've said before that we should be able to hit on getting 2 players who can help this team given the projected talent available in the latter half of the 1st round and early portion of the 2nd round. I previously identified DeAndre Bembry as my top target given his overall potential and skill set despite his lack of length. I was initially fairly dismissive of concerns with his shooting form as I thought that could be fixed through practice, tutelage, and repetition. However, after viewing his DX weaknesses video, I'm more concerned with his unnecessarily inefficient shooting form, particularly on the follow-through. I have other concerns as well, which includes his decision-making, but I still like him as a prospect. I'm just not as sold on him as I was from before.

If anyone has any personal opinions, analysis, or assessments on individual prospects based on going over scouting reports and videos, please continue to share them. I hope to catch up after the MLB draft this week.

Ranma · Post #133 » by **Ranma** » Mon Jun 6, 2016 11:41 pm

mkwest wrote:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Post #134 » by **mkwest** » Tue Jun 7, 2016 3:29 am

[tweet]https://twitter.com/LAClippers/status/739989667899023364[/tweet]

Pics/Captions courtesy of Law Murray of Clipper Blog

BG was in attendance today.

Tre Demps, Northwestern PG and son of #Pelicans GM Dell Demps, was a late fill-in for VanVleet.

Joel Bolomboy says that he isn't scheduled to work out for #Jazz. Would love to be back in Utah, but agent says Utah doesn't fit draft range right now

Isaiah Cousins says he's having fun getting to know some of the players he competed against at Oklahoma

Jameel McKay got to work out with Iowa State teammate Georges Niang today

Georges Niang: "I know who I am with my high basketball IQ."
[tweet]https://twitter.com/RowanKavner/status/739961685394391040[/tweet]

Taurean Prince sees himself as a first-rounder... will be in Toronto tomorrow

nickhx2 · Post #135 » by **nickhx2** » Tue Jun 7, 2016 4:16 am

was the team this active last year in trying out draft dudes? or ever?

i seriously don't remember this many players being worked out.

Ranma · Post #136 » by **Ranma** » Tue Jun 7, 2016 4:42 am

nickhx2 wrote:was the team this active last year in trying out draft dudes? or ever?

Post #137 » by **mkwest** » Tue Jun 7, 2016 4:55 am

nickhx2 wrote:was the team this active last year in trying out draft dudes? or ever?

i seriously don't remember this many players being worked out.

There were some workouts last year, but we didn't have any picks. This is probably the most active the team has been since 2010 (Aminu/Bledsoe/Warren).

Post #138 » by **mkwest** » Tue Jun 7, 2016 5:37 am

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_xnpR5BSb4[/youtube]

Post #139 » by **QRich3** » Tue Jun 7, 2016 8:34 am

Yeah Olshey used to run minicamps that executives from all teams would attend to. Can't recall so much activity in recent years though. Nice that we're thinking of moving up for a SF if the possibility is there, it makes too much sense. There's not a lot to pick from, Brown and Luwawu are definitely gonna be gone when we pick, and then all you have is Prince and Bembry. I certainly hope they made a promise to Prince yesterday, but he probably has higher aspirations than going 25 and getting paid just over a million a year.

PS- Ranma I'm not reading that big block of text with the thought acrobatics just so you can feel good about "proving" wrong some side point in a post of mine from a month ago. I've had you on ignore all year and I welcome you to stop quoting me and do the same, at this point I don't believe there's much we can discuss in a useful manner.

Ranma · Post #140 » by **Ranma** » Tue Jun 7, 2016 9:58 am

QRich3 wrote:PS- Ranma I'm not reading that big block of text with the thought acrobatics just so you can feel good about "proving" wrong some side point in a post of mine from a month ago. I've had you on ignore all year and I welcome you to stop quoting me and do the same, at this point I don't believe there's much we can discuss in a useful manner.

Whatever, dude. I even stated in a previous post that I wasn't looking to pick a fight since I know how sensitive you are to being called out on your Doc apologetic BS yet you still couldn't resist to include not so subtle digs at me for being "nitpicky" despite the fact that you apparently have no idea what BPA (Best Player Available) means when you took me to task for stating Bullock was not as such when the Clippers were on the clock back in 2013, which I thoroughly illustrated to be the case in the post you chose not to read.

You've previously accused me of having a personal vendetta against Doc and most recently assumed that I had something to hide with regard to my draft opinions and positions, which I've refuted on both counts. I've been careful to engage you in discussions and have even +1 some of your recent posts that I've agreed with, but you seem to have some sort of animosity towards me despite my efforts, so I'm not exactly going to miss being involved in your myopic logic in defense of Doc. Per your suggestion, I've just added you to my ignored list and will update my signature to reflect as much. You're also welcome to do the same with me in your signature just so we can let everyone know where we stand.