The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3)

[ceiling raiser]

How can you be too result oriented?

I'm not speaking of LeBron in this post, since (2) applies a bit. He missed some open shots. My point is if a guy plays identically in a win vs in a loss, then those three narratives will come up a lot.

I have seen this word "casuals" being used a lot lately when dismissing anyone's observation of star players

If someone criticizes a player based on how the actual basketball is played, I have no problem. Stuff like this:

"he missed his open shots"
"he settled for bad shots"
"he wasn't creating shots for teammates"
"he wasn't moving around off the ball"
"he was outmatched by the defender"
"he was lazy rotating"
"he didn't get his hands up to contest"
"he didn't get back in transition"

is substantiative and informative. The kind of things I highlighted in my earlier post, not so much. It doesn't tell us anything, and attempts to create a storyline, rather than break down what happened in the game.

[studcrackers]

perhaps it was me, but did it seem that lebron and the cavs missed a bunch of easy layups? between this and game 7 of the wcf i feel like ive seen a lot of bunnies missed

[G35]

How can you be too result oriented?

I'm not speaking of LeBron in this post, since (2) applies a bit. He missed some open shots. My point is if a guy plays identically in a win vs in a loss, then those three narratives will come up a lot.

I have seen this word "casuals" being used a lot lately when dismissing anyone's observation of star players

If someone criticizes a player based on how the actual basketball is played, I have no problem. Stuff like this:

"he missed his open shots"
"he settled for bad shots"
"he wasn't creating shots for teammates"
"he wasn't moving around off the ball"
"he was outmatched by the defender"
"he was lazy rotating"
"he didn't get his hands up to contest"
"he didn't get back in transition"

is substantiative and informative. The kind of things I highlighted in my earlier post, not so much. It doesn't tell us anything, and attempts to create a storyline, rather than break down what happened in the game.

You're right that many times that posters do not break down what happened in a game, but I see that with many stats oriented posters as well who put in lengthy statistics and make that the narrative instead of how those numbers were created.

I'm also not just talking about Lebron when saying "too result" oriented...on the PC board results seem to be a bad thing and I do not understand why. As we can all see the playoffs create the most passion, the most intensity, and the most reactionary posts. This is because as you win in the playoffs the competition gets stronger. In Lebron's case we were seeing a lot of statistics being bandied about without a lot of context or agenda based context.

Also sometimes posters do not have time to put in lengthy posts and we have to have the "TL;DR" summary at the bottom which some people do not appreciate when it does not support their pov.

LeBron had a below average game, guys. Thats the truth.

This is an example of being critical but does not provide a lot of context, however it is correct compared to the rest of Lebron's playoff run......

[kayess]

Sad, but about what we expected. This was their game to win too - splash brothers shot like ****, but the bench and their defense just bailed them out.

LeBron definitely could've been better, but his reputation is going to take a hammering after this one. Of course, all people will be able to say is "he had Kyrie and Love!!"

[MisterHibachi]

LeBron's getting killed on Twitter for his defense, which is a surprise to me. Apparently Kyrie played good defense. Am I just imagining those back cuts and drive bys?

[SideshowBob]

LeBron's getting killed on Twitter for his defense, which is a surprise to me. Apparently Kyrie played good defense. Am I just imagining those back cuts and drive bys?

Not Engelmann. He's been **** -ing on Kyrie all week.

Even made a video.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/JerryEngelmann/status/738720866427674624[/tweet]

[Dr Spaceman]

Interesting to me the Warriors were sending quick doubles at Love every catch. Anyone have any insight as to why? He did have a couple TOs on such possessions IIRC.

[RSCD3_]

Interesting to me the Warriors were sending quick doubles at Love every catch. Anyone have any insight as to why? He did have a couple TOs on such possessions IIRC.

I dont know but when love and lebron where on the same side of the post, the left block, there was a sequence in the 2nd quarter where love drew the double quickly hit it out to lebron who threw it right to love again who got double and threw it to lebron who threw it to another dude as the shot clock expired.

In real time, I was like wow green is incredible and he is of course. But I noticed that green was really only running from love to 4-5 feet away from james, and james had his own delay thT made this much easier than it's supposed to be to blow up.

Also I quit watching 9 minutes into the 4th but I didnt once see that Channing, Bron, Delly play that meteorized the raptors. , really looked like cleveland was having more problems on offense and a lot of this has to do with lebron posting on iggy not being a good idea though it looks like lebron thinks it so despite having his lunch money taken three times and missing a ton of contested shots over iggy

[PCProductions]

Interesting to me the Warriors were sending quick doubles at Love every catch. Anyone have any insight as to why? He did have a couple TOs on such possessions IIRC.

Probably to rattle him.

[gaf234]

Are people trolling when they say this game was what they expected? People really expected the Warriors to win being led by Livingston, Draymond and AI? It seems we also harp on mainstream basketball fans for being too results oriented, but literally the only thing you could've predicted was the result. Nothing else went as expected in this game.

-Great defense played on Curry. They gave him a bunch of different looks to throw him off, and it seemed to work. One on one vs Lebron, vs Shump, vs Irving, vs Smith, switching their bigs onto him. Of course, he can play better regardless of the defense against him.
-Kevin Love. The amount of slander he gets is incredible, and it seems basketball twitter is just a clique to bash the guy, but people who were talking about how he needs to be benched were just flat out wrong and probably should be ignored moving forward. The only thing that would have stopped me from saying he had a good game were the shots he made in the post. But he was fine defensively, good on the boards and had his outside shot going.
-Ultimately, the game came down to the Cavs offense coming down to earth. If they have anything nearing their offensive output earlier in the playoffs, they win this game. Credit the GSW defense, Draymond and Iggy in particular, but Lue needs to go to the Lebron+Delly+shooters combo faster and longer. Kyrie should not be playing more than 30 mins a game. The Cavs got the lead late in the third with that lineup, and promptly gave up a 13-2 run when Lue subbed out Lebron for Kyrie. Fundamentally, Kyrie just gets tunnel vision when Lebron is not on the floor and will dribble half the shot clock off before he settles for a 18-footer.


If I was a Cavs fan, I wouldn't be disheartened by this game at all (other than beyond the mere fact of being down 1-0). The narrative going on before the series was that the Cavs defense would get shredded by GSW's offense, and that there wouldn't be any adjustments to be made because its a personnel issue. That didn't remotely happen. It was the Cavs offense that cost them the game.


Lebron didn't play particularly well, and he still ended up with more threes than Smith and Frye combined. The shooters need to come out and make GSW pay anytime they help off to stop the dribble penetration. If they can do that, which, while granted will be tough against a great defense, doesn't seem impossible or even unlikely, this should be a long, competitive series.

[SideshowBob]

Are people trolling when they say this game was what they expected? People really expected the Warriors to win being led by Livingston, Draymond and AI? It seems we also harp on mainstream basketball fans for being too results oriented, but literally the only thing you could've predicted was the result. Nothing else went as expected in this game.

-Great defense played on Curry. They gave him a bunch of different looks to throw him off, and it seemed to work. One on one vs Lebron, vs Shump, vs Irving, vs Smith, switching their bigs onto him. Of course, he can play better regardless of the defense against him.
-Kevin Love. The amount of slander he gets is incredible, and it seems basketball twitter is just a clique to bash the guy, but people who were talking about how he needs to be benched were just flat out wrong and probably should be ignored moving forward. The only thing that would have stopped me from saying he had a good game were the shots he made in the post. But he was fine defensively, good on the boards and had his outside shot going.
-Ultimately, the game came down to the Cavs offense coming down to earth. If they have anything nearing their offensive output earlier in the playoffs, they win this game. Credit the GSW defense, Draymond and Iggy in particular, but Lue needs to go to the Lebron+Delly+shooters combo faster and longer. Kyrie should not be playing more than 30 mins a game. The Cavs got the lead late in the third with that lineup, and promptly gave up a 13-2 run when Lue subbed out Lebron for Kyrie. Fundamentally, Kyrie just gets tunnel vision when Lebron is not on the floor and will dribble half the shot clock off before he settles for a 18-footer.


If I was a Cavs fan, I wouldn't be disheartened by this game at all (other than beyond the mere fact of being down 1-0). The narrative going on before the series was that the Cavs defense would get shredded by GSW's offense, and that there wouldn't be any adjustments to be made because its a personnel issue. That didn't remotely happen. It was the Cavs offense that cost them the game.


Lebron didn't play particularly well, and he still ended up with more threes than Smith and Frye combined. The shooters need to come out and make GSW pay anytime they help off to stop the dribble penetration. If they can do that, which, while granted will be tough against a great defense, doesn't seem impossible or even unlikely, this should be a long, competitive series.

I pretty much agree with this.

Also RSCD_'s point on Lebron posting Iggy as well, thats not the direction the offense should be taking.

[PaulieWal]

^^ I said this last night as well. This is absolutely a game that the Cavs had to win. Against the Warriors when your defense can make Klay/Curry struggle you have to got those Ws in the bag. As we all know from the last series and over the last two years there are going to be 1-2 games where Curry/Klay will be red hot even if the defense on them is perfect. Last night's game will hurt the Cavs.

I agree with fpliii in that I see this being a quick series. I think it's going to be a relatively easy 5-6 games for the Warriors. Bron showed up defensively last night and I am sure his offense will be better going forward, the Warriors are just a terrible match-up for the Cavs.

Another way to look at this series which doesn't bode well for the Cavs is this:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BillSimmons/status/738575705022173184[/tweet]

[MisterHibachi]

This is a new one:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MikePradaSBN/status/738781907509469184[/tweet]

[ceiling raiser]

I'm also not just talking about Lebron when saying "too result" oriented...

Results aren't a bad thing. There's just dissonance between performance and results (either because of context or noise) some of the time.

Also sometimes posters do not have time to put in lengthy posts

That's fine, as long as we're not treating those posts as analysis. If we identify it's an in-the-moment reaction and it's not an attempt to explain the game, I don't think there's any issue.

[SideshowBob]

This is a new one:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MikePradaSBN/status/738781907509469184[/tweet]

What in the hell

Did they just not watch the game (or basketball in general)?

Sounds like giving an opinion for the sake of having one.

[JVL]

This game was a dud. I doubt it'll happen again. The Cavaliers missed too many easy opportunities, shots they've been making ever since they pushed things up a notch after the ASG.

It's clear the plan didn't work and it's clear they weren't agressive enough. I'm confident they'll at least enter game 2 with more energy.

[JVL]

^^ I said this last night as well. This is absolutely a game that the Cavs had to win. Against the Warriors when your defense can make Klay/Curry struggle you have to got those Ws in the bag.

I felt that they gambled too much on Klay/Steph, to the detriment of their overall defense. The Warriors their 3-11 can all score, they can all play. It's commendable how they took their top 2 out of the game, but at the expense of the role players going off? Not worth it obviously.

Are people trolling when they say this game was what they expected? People really expected the Warriors to win being led by Livingston, Draymond and AI? It seems we also harp on mainstream basketball fans for being too results oriented, but literally the only thing you could've predicted was the result. Nothing else went as expected in this game.

-Great defense played on Curry. They gave him a bunch of different looks to throw him off, and it seemed to work. One on one vs Lebron, vs Shump, vs Irving, vs Smith, switching their bigs onto him. Of course, he can play better regardless of the defense against him.
-Kevin Love. The amount of slander he gets is incredible, and it seems basketball twitter is just a clique to bash the guy, but people who were talking about how he needs to be benched were just flat out wrong and probably should be ignored moving forward. The only thing that would have stopped me from saying he had a good game were the shots he made in the post. But he was fine defensively, good on the boards and had his outside shot going.
-Ultimately, the game came down to the Cavs offense coming down to earth. If they have anything nearing their offensive output earlier in the playoffs, they win this game. Credit the GSW defense, Draymond and Iggy in particular, but Lue needs to go to the Lebron+Delly+shooters combo faster and longer. Kyrie should not be playing more than 30 mins a game. The Cavs got the lead late in the third with that lineup, and promptly gave up a 13-2 run when Lue subbed out Lebron for Kyrie. Fundamentally, Kyrie just gets tunnel vision when Lebron is not on the floor and will dribble half the shot clock off before he settles for a 18-footer.


If I was a Cavs fan, I wouldn't be disheartened by this game at all (other than beyond the mere fact of being down 1-0). The narrative going on before the series was that the Cavs defense would get shredded by GSW's offense, and that there wouldn't be any adjustments to be made because its a personnel issue. That didn't remotely happen. It was the Cavs offense that cost them the game.


Lebron didn't play particularly well, and he still ended up with more threes than Smith and Frye combined. The shooters need to come out and make GSW pay anytime they help off to stop the dribble penetration. If they can do that, which, while granted will be tough against a great defense, doesn't seem impossible or even unlikely, this should be a long, competitive series.

+1, summarizes how I feel about it as well.

[therealbig3]

I disagree, saying the Cavs played great defense is actually what's results oriented. Curry and Klay got a ton of open looks, they just missed them. If they hit them at their normal rate, then this game would have been over a lot earlier.

As for LeBron, I thought he played a good game. He was their only defender worth a crap, did a good job on Curry when he was switched onto him, he rotated well, and offensively, he was easily their best player. Love could have been more efficient scoring the ball, and his defense wasn't great either, but not a huge liability. Kyrie's effort on defense is unacceptable at this point, you're in the god damn Finals. There's no excuse to not at least do the little things, like box out and hustle back on defense. And offensively, his constant ISOing and tunnel vision and chucking isn't going to get the job done. He's just an awful PnR guard, because he always ends up waving off the screen after wasting about 10-15 seconds, and then ISOing.

Also, as for giving the ball to Love in the post against a perceived "mistmatch"...Love isn't even a good post scorer, and are Klay and Iggy really mismatches? That's just not good offense.

Game 1 felt like a microcosm of last year, when it was LeBron against everybody, because even though they have Kyrie and Love out there now, I feel like the coaching is a lot worse, Love isn't really doing anything that Frye can't do, Kyrie is a selfish offensive player, and both of them definitely make the defense worse than last year.

[Dupp]

This is a new one:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MikePradaSBN/status/738781907509469184[/tweet]

Is this anyone of significance? What a clown.

[JordansBulls]

LeBron's getting killed on Twitter for his defense, which is a surprise to me. Apparently Kyrie played good defense. Am I just imagining those back cuts and drive bys?

It's because they see Curry didn't shoot well so that goes to Kyrie being the defensive stopper.