The Falcon King - The Harrison Barnes Thread Part II

[DynastySS]

Split from previous discussion. The first 100+ pages can be found here
Guys, it is out of his control.

[Suka Bongcic]

Even if Looney gets healthy I think he is a power forward and perhaps even a small ball center as he fills out. I don't think Looney has the foot speed to defend at small forward unless he can use arm length and perfect positioning and foot work to defend smaller faster players the way Kevin McHale defended small forwards and the way Klay defends point guards.

That is nice thing have Green playing next to him. Looney is just a forward. Green can switch with him on defense. Besides, not like Barnes is defensive or offensive star. Looney just need to rebound that Barnes is doing..... anything else Looney provide is like Barnes on the floor on most night. Ie. Stinks it up and replaced with Iggy.

He sure stunk it up in game 1 of the finals while scoring 7 of our first 9 while everyone else was chucking bricks. Just awful.

[Suka Bongcic]

Guys, it is out of his control.

At this point, it is. Yeah,
He had his chance and completely blew it, but it is currently out of his control

[marthafokker]

Even if Looney gets healthy I think he is a power forward and perhaps even a small ball center as he fills out. I don't think Looney has the foot speed to defend at small forward unless he can use arm length and perfect positioning and foot work to defend smaller faster players the way Kevin McHale defended small forwards and the way Klay defends point guards.

That is nice thing have Green playing next to him. Looney is just a forward. Green can switch with him on defense. Besides, not like Barnes is defensive or offensive star. Looney just need to rebound that Barnes is doing..... anything else Looney provide is like Barnes on the floor on most night. Ie. Stinks it up and replaced with Iggy.

He sure stunk it up in game 1 of the finals while scoring 7 of our first 9 while everyone else was chucking bricks. Just awful.

So Livingston should get max now since he has done way more than Barnes in the playoff? A game and he is a GOAT? And not even lead the them other than making a few shots?

[watch1958]

HB may be gone, but Matt B. or VC? How does adding slower and older help this team? That's nuts. Harrison is a young athletic player who gives them some really useful lineup options. If he is gone because he wants too much money, great. But then they should be looking for a young athletic guy who gives them useful lineup options. Doesn't have to be the same options that HB provides. Maybe an upgrade over Clark that would let them play different 3 guard options. Or a young big to push Ezeli/Speights/Varejao. But not old & slow.

[Suka Bongcic]

That is nice thing have Green playing next to him. Looney is just a forward. Green can switch with him on defense. Besides, not like Barnes is defensive or offensive star. Looney just need to rebound that Barnes is doing..... anything else Looney provide is like Barnes on the floor on most night. Ie. Stinks it up and replaced with Iggy.

He sure stunk it up in game 1 of the finals while scoring 7 of our first 9 while everyone else was chucking bricks. Just awful.

So Livingston should get max now since he has done way more than Barnes in the playoff? A game and he is a GOAT? And not even lead the them other than making a few shots?

Lol. Not sure where I said anything about anyones contract or being GOAT. Not sure I even said he was good. I said he played well and set the tone at the start. You said he stinks up the court. He's stunk up the court on MANY a night. Game 1 of the NBA finals was not one of them. Dunno what your last post has to do with anything

[old rem]

Just yesterday I saw (again) the MYTH that Barnes gets MAX. Really? That suggests any Starter gets about $20 mill or so.. which is obviously absurd. Yesterday....Barnes had SOME good moments.. and some slop turnovers. Barbosa looked better. Livingston too.

Barnes has some TALENT.....he's also got flaws. For a guy who's had a few years.. it's silly to suggest " upside" when he has hardly changed. Even when he's in with the bench guys.....he's not making much impact. Should we pay huge $ to Livingston,Iggy,Festus,Mo,Barbosa? Not possible. While agents DO get greedy.....does Barnes want to play on a scrubby team?

Who's DESPERATE? Sure.. there's a few chronic FAIL teams.. but...OVERPAY by a TON? History says.. that sucks. The Knicks TRIED to throw money at Mercenaries and... colossal fail. They may not be triple the payroll of whoever...yet sucky.. but, are SLOW to adapt for "bang per buck".

As a GSW guy, I SAW when the "brains of everything" were no better than some guy at a bar,some guy online, I'd argue with.
OMG.....we bungled and botched the EASY stuff. A short list of "worst trades"? We OWN it. What did we get trading Wilt? Bernard King? Tim Hardaway? Why did we NOT draft Noah? G Monroe? KG? Why did Nellie SCREW OVER 4 lotto picks?

Post Cohen......Post Nellie.....this GSW is ON THE SAME PAGE... top to bottom. The Front office,the coaches, the WHOLE roster.....same page. Strength in numbers. Some see the Splash Bro effect.. but... that's not the whole enchilada.
The whole Enchilada is.. the whole enchilada. Imagine a snail watching a hummingbird and trying to understand that.
GSW is playing RETRO " Hoosiers" and FUTURE at the same time. They go with a "rotation" that's pretty much EVERYONE.
Seems EVERYONE can pass, defend... and many shoot 3's. Sometimes the W's have a group brainfart...... but that's not apt to happen in MONEY TIME. Strength In Numbers. The Oracle's powers... the MVP's powers....Dray,the dancing bear who can do... anything.

Bogut, Ezeli, Mo......Each is different.. but then GSW goes SMALL but Dray is the biggest small guy you can imagine.

Barnes? He's a useful ROLE guy. He's hardly a crucial asset. I WISH he was that guy. We shall see what the future is. I won't be surprised ...either way. Barnes CAN return at a sane price tag.... or.. he can go to some team that's desperate and will overpay.

[kaiballz]

HB may be gone, but Matt B. or VC? How does adding slower and older help this team? That's nuts. Harrison is a young athletic player who gives them some really useful lineup options. If he is gone because he wants too much money, great. But then they should be looking for a young athletic guy who gives them useful lineup options. Doesn't have to be the same options that HB provides. Maybe an upgrade over Clark that would let them play different 3 guard options. Or a young big to push Ezeli/Speights/Varejao. But not old & slow.

because HB wants around 20m and matt barnes would probably take the vet min.

[statsman]

110 pages and Old Rem still babbling on (I have no F-ing idea what he's saying - I can't and won't read it).

[mos_def]

I would look at Evan Turner to replace Harrison Barnes if the money is too much

[kaiballz]

110 pages and Old Rem still babbling on (I have no F-ing idea what he's saying - I can't and won't read it).

its true that his posts are tough to read. but tbh i think its just the excessive use of ...s
his content is sound

[wco81]

Evan Turner?

Gimme a break.

[ILOVEIT]

Evan Turner?

Gimme a break.

Yeah....the minimum requirement for a replacement is the ability to stretch the floor and shoot from 3....

[cpower]

Jared Dudley

[Coxy]

PJ Tucker.

[FNQ]

Year 3 of saying it: Moe Harkless will give you just as much as Barnes at half the price. He was knocked as a bust in ORL.. Well that's what happens when you give limited players no direction. Portland gave him some direction. We can set him up even better.

[ChuckDurn]

Year 3 of saying it: Moe Harkless will give you just as much as Barnes at half the price. He was knocked as a bust in ORL.. Well that's what happens when you give limited players no direction. Portland gave him some direction. We can set him up even better.

I largely agree and like Harmless, but his inability to shoot the 3 was exposed during our series with the Blazers. That would be the main gap between he and Barnes - I'm generally reasonably confident when Barnes lines up an open 3, whereas with Harmless, I'd be much, much less confident.

[FNQ]

Year 3 of saying it: Moe Harkless will give you just as much as Barnes at half the price.

I largely agree and like Harmless, but his inability to shoot the 3 was exposed during our series with the Blazers. That would be the main gap between he and Barnes - I'm generally reasonably confident when Barnes lines up an open 3, whereas with Harmless, I'd be much, much less confident.

I delved into the #s last year and Barnes was the beneficiary of higher volume wide-open shots, whereas Harkless hit the same % of open 3s, just at far less volume. Most of his 3s were closely contested. Here are the #s this year:

Harkless
overall: 27.9% from 3
when open (4+ feet) - 29.3%
when not open (under 4 ft) 13%

By my math, Harkless took 16 'contested' 3s last year, hit 2 of them. Anyways, Harkless clearly regressed from his ORL shooting where he hit 40% of open 3s and took them at much less volume. That said, he had a TS% of .541, improved his rebound rate (10.9%, crazy good for a SF), assist rate, and block rate, while lowering his TO rate and seeing a 2 point uptick in usage. Besides his 3pt%, his FT% is concerning, as he's an Iguodala-like 60% FT shooter.

One other thing bothered me, so I also put a filter in to see how he shot when he started the game. The results were very different:

overall: 31.6% from 3 (12/38 in 14 games)
when open: 11/28 (39.3%)
when not open: 1/10 (10%)

So stands to reason that when he's playing with a better unit, he got better shots, and put them down more efficiently. He put up 11.9./6.6/1.2 with a steal and block per game on top of that in 14 games as a starter, with a .574% TS. Overall, yes, I wouldnt be as confident that he could stripe a 3 as well as Barnes can either. But I think that's more about results we've seen than what he actually could accomplish knowing that he would A) be starting, and B) be getting great looks from teammates consistently.

[FNQ]

Anyways, Harkless to me is the exact type of player Barnes is. He's got potential, but will he unlock it? I think Harkless is the better long-term prospect for one reason: it's easier to improve shooting %s than it is to improve aggressiveness and defensive counting stats. Add into that we could potentially lock up Harkless for half the price of Barnes, and you have a guy who can definitely play the 3/4, rebounds well, can hit enough open 3s to keep defenses honest, and can also protect the rim and get a few more steals than Barnes can. If for some reason the Blazers valued Barnes over Harkless, I'd happily swing a S&T where we pick up an asset (even a TE) and get a freshly signed Harkless as a result

[rallydurham]

Teams are willing to pay barnes big money because it enables them to play a similar style as the warriors. Now they may not have steph/klay but many teams do have a pg/sg who can shoot.

The problem is if they think barnes can do much more than what he currently does in an efficient manner I'm not sure they are correct.

And it's gonna be really difficult to find a young guy who can replace barnes defense, rebounding, and shooting for a lot less of a pricetag. Those attributes are just that highly sought after.

As crazy as it sounds you almost have to max him out rather than risk slippage from someone not as comfortable standing around in a corner doing nothing for 95% of the game.

But i think the warriors are intelligent enough to adequately replace him. I think they let him walk and go for a jared dudley type in the short run while they groom a longer term replacement