The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3)

[RSCD3_]

The Warriors are too brilliant on defense and passing and are too brutal a matchup for these Cavs. If they lose will be a fascinating summer for Cleveland since I assume they're forced to pull the plug on Irving or Love. Love will be made out as the obvious fall guy but he's a top 3 passer for his position on the team (behind Lebron and Delly) and he's a top 2 floor spacer with Frye and J.R. Is less spacing and passing really the answer considering how light years ahead the Warriors offensive execution looks this series? If they trade Love for Melo it will be missing the plot big time. Better off with Boston role players.

Wonder why frye only got 4 minutes tonight? And delly barely got any time before garbage time (16 in total). These two with lebron were pulling off ORtg's in the 130's in the playoffs and lue has abandoned it.

[mtron929]

I must be trippin', because I have to be honest.... I look at this Golden State roster and this Cleveland roster and I still am at a loss to explain the significant gap between these two teams, because I don't think that gap exists on pure talent. It obviously exists in reality though.

But one has to see how the talent coalesces with one another. When push comes to shove, the Cavs rely on Lebron ball with Lebron playing the point. Accordingly, the "talents" of Irving and Love are wasted because these guys do not play well without the ball. On the other hand, all three of the Warriors big 3 (Curry, Klay, Green) play excellently without the ball and thus, one can maximize all of their movements to get a quality shot in a given possession. Moreover, the Warriors have so much more talent on the defensive end compared to the Cavs. It's not even close.

[RSCD3_]

There's no one problem to point to that will magically fix things. The Cavaliers are just hopelessly outmatched on both sides of the ball. They don't have the defensive personnel to match up with GS...Love and Kyrie get exposed badly against this team every time. And offensively, LeBron's decline as a player is a big deal. I know we try to pretend like it's not, but I'm gonna go ahead and say that it's IMPOSSIBLE for the Cavs to beat anybody actually half decent until he regains his jumper. Otherwise, it's just too hard to score points...he might be able to lift a dreadful supporting cast to something that's not awful, like he did in last year's Finals, but there's a very low ceiling to the team offense against a defense like this, ESPECIALLY with defenders that can match up very well with LeBron. Even with superior offensive talent now, they're struggling to score, and it comes down to LeBron having the same serious flaws he had when he was a kid going up against SA or Boston...except he doesn't have the same insane explosion off the dribble to somewhat combat that. 07/08 LeBron, THAT LeBron could have played better if he had better offensive help...but this LeBron doesn't have the off-the-dribble explosion anymore, and coupled with the lack of a jumper, he just can't do much offensively without ball stopping, grinding the offense to a halt, and just playing generally ugly basketball. All the offensive help in the world doesn't mean **** when he can't do anything off the dribble.

Add to that, Kyrie is one seriously dumb basketball player that hurts the Cavs offense despite his talent, and is a huge liability on defense, and he should just be benched (which I did say should happen, and people thought I was crazy, because it would mess with this "historic" offense). Love has become insanely inconsistent offensively, and his defense is also a huge liability against the Warriors.

I always thought it was crazy that people said that the Cavs were better off without Kyrie and Love against the Warriors, but it looks like they actually match up a lot better. Offensively, you keep the ball out of the hands of a selfish, offense-breaking player, and you replace two defensive liabilities with two plus defenders. The Warriors have some off nights now and then, and you can squeeze out a couple of wins that way. The one area it does hurt though is depth, and the Cavs just got gassed last year after 3 games, and LeBron couldn't do anymore (although, again, if he had a consistent jumper, his life would have been a lot easier, because he wouldn't have had to attack excellent defenders and the teeth of the defense nearly as much as he did).

I think the cavs could have pressured okc enough to get it at least 6 games with a likely chance they could win in 7, when a goat team has a big matchup advantage on you, there's nothing you can do. But OKC isnt as talented and cleveland especially lebron would have a better chance, this cavs teams in most years would be a real contender, they are no 01 sixers/ 02 nets/ 07 cavs or even the 2014 heat. They are about a 6-6.5 SRS team or during the playoffs on that level that is being humiliated.

[bondom34]

Oh, those are Skip Bayless level media garbage opinions, which is why I didn't bother. He's going up against a great team stacked at every position. Top 5ish player all time, which is why I didn't address the ridiculous "opinion" you tried to use as an excuse to troll.

[Dr Positivity]

I must be trippin', because I have to be honest.... I look at this Golden State roster and this Cleveland roster and I still am at a loss to explain the significant gap between these two teams, because I don't think that gap exists on pure talent. It obviously exists in reality though.

It's close on offense but not on defense. The Warriors may be one of the most talented defensive teams of all time. Because they play an offensive pace it doesn't show up as much on DRTG as it would have if they played like recent Bulls, Pacers, Grizzlies. But they have more talent than any of those teams with 1st/2nd best defensive player in the league in Draymond flanked by Iguodala and Bogut who are two of the best wing and center defenders of this era. The defensive IQ combined of those three is off the charts. A big 3 like that has not happened often on D. Then Steph and Klay are one of the best defensive backcourts in the game, their backup C Ezeli is a defense first role player etc.

[Basileus777]

I always thought it was crazy that people said that the Cavs were better off without Kyrie and Love against the Warriors, but it looks like they actually match up a lot better. Offensively, you keep the ball out of the hands of a selfish, offense-breaking player, and you replace two defensive liabilities with two plus defenders. The Warriors have some off nights now and then, and you can squeeze out a couple of wins that way. The one area it does hurt though is depth, and the Cavs just got gassed last year after 3 games, and LeBron couldn't do anymore (although, again, if he had a consistent jumper, his life would have been a lot easier, because he wouldn't have had to attack excellent defenders and the teeth of the defense nearly as much as he did).

Last years Cavs team wouldn't be taking two games from the 2016 Warriors. This is a much better GState team and the putrid offense the Cavs put up last year and still managed to win those two games is not something they would have ever repeated again. Maybe they wouldn't be losing by 33, but I don't really see the 2015 finals as some sort of formula to success when you look at how the final games of that series played out.

[Greatness]

I don't know about anyone else but my interest level in the NBA will probably go down next year. No one will beat the Warriors for the foreseeable future.

[therealbig3]

I don't know about anyone else but my interest level in the NBA will probably go down next year. No one will beat the Warriors for the foreseeable future.

That's not true. It's just not gonna be the Cavs.

OKC just took them to 7, and were up 3-1.

GS is beatable, Cleveland was just a pretender this year.

[tone wone]

To me, LeBron's lack of belief in his team's ability to win is very apparent out there. He's playing hard, but his body language and facial expressions defy confidence. Like he's fully aware his team's outclassed and just resigned to the beat down.

When's the last time he's had this much trouble against a single team? 7 straight loses with 5 blowouts with 2 embarrassing ass-whopping. I mean damn.

Also, GSW stripes his game naked and exposes just how much he's declined as a scorer. A playmaking PF with limited range cant do much against this defensive personnel.

[RSCD3_]

I don't know about anyone else but my interest level in the NBA will probably go down next year. No one will beat the Warriors for the foreseeable future.

That's not true. It's just not gonna be the Cavs.

OKC just took them to 7, and were up 3-1.

GS is beatable, Cleveland was just a pretender this year.

Disagree cleveland isnt a pretender, the warriors as constructed would really knock off slihtly better teams that were champions like the 2009 Lakers, 2011 Mavs, 2012 Heat, they are just steamrolling teams. They faced a team almost designed to beat them and won after facing a 3-1 deficit. Withhow there playing only the very very very strongest teams could have split with them.

[mikejames23]

Love being out is blessing in disguise. I can now see Cleveland taking Game 3. Not hating on Love. I really like Love, but for this matchup, it makes no sense for him to be out there for extended minutes. That, and frankly, LeBron's game meshes with Frye's better than Love's.

[JulesWinnfield]

I don't know about anyone else but my interest level in the NBA will probably go down next year. No one will beat the Warriors for the foreseeable future.

Mine won't. I prefer a different outcome in this series just like you do, but I can't help but be awed by this team and I'm going to enjoy watching this ride for as long as it lasts. They have some serious crossover appeal as well and are growing this game substantially, brining in a lot of new fans as evidenced by the spike in the ratings during their recent reign. They're basically becoming the new Bulls. Not even shaq/Kobe had the crossover appeal this group does from the standpoint of growing viewership. Nor did Miami and all their polarization. Steph curry is Americas little cuddly kitten. They're clearly the biggest draw in this modern era (you can't really compare tv ratings across eras though as there is literally not much more apples and oranges comparisons given the change in the technology landscape).

[therealbig3]

I don't know about anyone else but my interest level in the NBA will probably go down next year. No one will beat the Warriors for the foreseeable future.

That's not true. It's just not gonna be the Cavs.

OKC just took them to 7, and were up 3-1.

GS is beatable, Cleveland was just a pretender this year.

Disagree cleveland isnt a pretender, the warriors as constructed would really knock off slihtly better teams that were champions like the 2009 Lakers, 2011 Mavs, 2012 Heat, they are just steamrolling teams. They faced a team almost designed to beat them and won after facing a 3-1 deficit. Withhow there playing only the very very very strongest teams could have split with them.

I think any very good team with athletic defenders could make this Cavs team MUCH less effective than they were during the RS.

I think OKC would have beaten them. The Cavs would have struggled against them defensively, and as they showed against GS, they have the length and athleticism to match up against LeBron. They would probably do something similar to what GS is doing, and just wall off the paint and force him into the ball-stopping ugliness that is his scoring game right now.

SA would have murdered the Cavs. That series would have been an even bigger blowout than this series is gonna be.

I just don't see the Cavs having much success against any of the elite teams out West (this includes a healthy Clippers team)...they're all too good on both sides of the ball, and they know how to exploit obvious flaws, like LeBron's jump shooting or Kyrie/Love on defense.

The Thunder could have played better themselves, and yes, the Warriors came back to win, but they also needed some pretty special performances in order to do so. Just based on the law of averages, the Thunder probably win that series 9 times out of 10 after going up 3-1.

Yes, the Cavs had a really good RS, a championship-level one. But they don't match up well with the other top teams, which makes it hard for me to consider them anything more than pretenders, because success in the playoffs and the true measurement of a championship-level team is determined by how well that team holds up against different matchups.

[bondom34]

This series is making me abnormally upset.

[JulesWinnfield]

The thing that really gets me about the Warriors is who the hell saw this coming? With the Bulls you were able to pretty clearly see it was only a matter of time, Detroit/LA/Boston were going to fade and create the vacuum for superman to run the league for a decade. With Shaq/Kobe titles seemed inevitable. Same when Miami got together. I don't know who the hell could have predicted two years ago that the Warriors were going to run off 140 regular season wins and back to back titles. They had the feel of a team with a competitive future that would see them in the contention mix, but this level of greatness has to have completely blindsided anyone being honest

[RSCD3_]

That's not true. It's just not gonna be the Cavs.

OKC just took them to 7, and were up 3-1.

GS is beatable, Cleveland was just a pretender this year.

Disagree cleveland isnt a pretender, the warriors as constructed would really knock off slihtly better teams that were champions like the 2009 Lakers, 2011 Mavs, 2012 Heat, they are just steamrolling teams. They faced a team almost designed to beat them and won after facing a 3-1 deficit. Withhow there playing only the very very very strongest teams could have split with them.

I think any very good team with athletic defenders could make this Cavs team MUCH less effective than they were during the RS.

I think OKC would have beaten them. The Cavs would have struggled against them defensively, and as they showed against GS, they have the length and athleticism to match up against LeBron. They would probably do something similar to what GS is doing, and just wall off the paint and force him into the ball-stopping ugliness that is his scoring game right now.

SA would have murdered the Cavs. That series would have been an even bigger blowout than this series is gonna be.

I just don't see the Cavs having much success against any of the elite teams out West (this includes a healthy Clippers team)...they're all too good on both sides of the ball, and they know how to exploit obvious flaws, like LeBron's jump shooting or Kyrie/Love on defense.

The Thunder could have played better themselves, and yes, the Warriors came back to win, but they also needed some pretty special performances in order to do so. Just based on the law of averages, the Thunder probably win that series 9 times out of 10 after going up 3-1.

Yes, the Cavs had a really good RS, a championship-level one. But they don't match up well with the other top teams, which makes it hard for me to consider them anything more than pretenders, because success in the playoffs and the true measurement of a championship-level team is determined by how well that team holds up against different matchups.

But if 3 teams all have a base SRS of about 10-11, when they really amp it up and the cavs are only a 6-7 does that make them a pretender, because then there would be other nba teams who won it all recently who would look like pretenders vs any of SA/GSW/SA. When I hear pretenders I think teams that would have no chance in the finals vs an average finals team, like if the raptors had won due to a lebron acl tear in the previous series, they would be a pretender because while winning 55 theyd have a slim to very slim chance vs any west team since 2000.

Ironically due to matchups a fully healthy toronto might be able to push the warriors more despite being a worse team vs almost any other opponent than the cavs

[therealbig3]

The thing that really gets me about the Warriors is who the hell saw this coming? With the Bulls you were able to pretty clearly see it was only a matter of time, Detroit/LA/Boston were going to fade and create the vacuum for superman to run the league for a decade. With Shaq/Kobe titles seemed inevitable. Same when Miami got together. I don't know who the hell could have predicted two years ago that the Warriors were going to run off 140 regular season wins and back to back titles. They had the feel of a team with a competitive future that would see them in the contention mix, but this level of greatness has to have completely blindsided anyone being honest

The players got better, yes, but the biggest improvement imo has been Kerr over Jackson.

Very obvious now that Jackson held that team back with his primitive offense and lack of actual coaching. They were going to be a perennial 5th-7th seed that would be the NBA's version of a Cinderella team that would upset the higher seed now and then, and give the true contenders a better fight than expected, but ultimately, they would be a treadmill team.

Kerr deserves a lot of credit imo. He took them from that treadmill to GOAT-level.

And yet you still have idiots like Stephen A. Smith that are still upset about Mark Jackson getting fired and still act like Kerr is overrated and was handed a team that everyone knew was already championship-level, after Mark Jackson did all the work.

LOL, yeah right. Big difference between 50 wins with 1st/2nd round losses and 70 wins with NBA titles.

[bondom34]

I hate to be that guy but really at some point they have to do the 1-16 seeding no? I mean Cleveland looked like a bulldozer for 3 full rounds and could sit guys half their games, even against the 2 seed. This series looks to be over and 2 games were just total dumptruckings. Its not on Lebron's play and they on paper have the top end talent, but the whole east is just so down and I'm not sure what's missing on the Cavs at this point either.

Damn I can't even watch this series because it upsets me that much.

[tone wone]

And offensively, LeBron's decline as a player is a big deal. I know we try to pretend like it's not, but I'm gonna go ahead and say that it's IMPOSSIBLE for the Cavs to beat anybody actually half decent until he regains his jumper. Otherwise, it's just too hard to score points...he might be able to lift a dreadful supporting cast to something that's not awful, like he did in last year's Finals, but there's a very low ceiling to the team offense against a defense like this, ESPECIALLY with defenders that can match up very well with LeBron. Even with superior offensive talent now, they're struggling to score, and it comes down to LeBron having the same serious flaws he had when he was a kid going up against SA or Boston...except he doesn't have the same motor and insane explosion off the dribble to somewhat combat that. 07/08 LeBron, THAT LeBron could have played better if he had better offensive help...but this LeBron doesn't have the off-the-dribble explosion anymore, and coupled with the lack of a jumper, he just can't do much offensively without ball stopping, grinding the offense to a halt, and just playing generally ugly basketball. All the offensive help in the world doesn't mean **** when he can't do anything off the dribble.

This Cavs team is built on the premise of their best player being a high scoring dynamic wing but 2016 Lebron is a athletic playmaking PF with limited range....Think 2013 Blake with a superior floor game. CLE/Lebron thought he was still a dominat perimeter player but he isn't. Thats my theory as to why they pushed for the Love trade. I NEVER understood what people saw in that paring. This paring is going to make less sense as Lebron ages

Going forward how would you construct a team around this player? Even if he were to become a respectable shooter again the days of him masquerading as a perimeter player are almost over.

[The High Cyde]

I'm with Greatness on this one, I doubt I'll be following the NBA as religiously as I do now. I even said so a few months back that watching GS bores me. Like, I feel no enjoyment watching them play (I know they're a great team and all that jazz so spare me). Curry could make his fifth three in a row and my heart rate won't rise, which is saying something since I suffer from anxiety lmao

I was watching one of the GS games with my sister, and she doesn't particularly like basketball or sports in general, but she got hella excited watching GS shoot and make threes...for only so long. All they do is shoot threes. Well that's my opinion of it anyways. God I would've given part of my pinky to see OKC v CLE Finals, a little useless part though, as long as it doesn't hurt too bad, and if it does I want that good morphine. Actually, I've heard humans can do without their pinky toe, but I've also heard we need it for balance, well I'd gosh darn diddly dang it would absolutely sacrifice a little part of my pinky toe for that match up regardless, man the things I do for love

Anyways, Kyrie needs to go, he's a great offensive talent for himself. And that's literally it.

Also, wtf happened to Cleveland's three point attack, they even shoot any this game?

Also, great game from Richard Jefferson, you guys follow his snapchat? Dude's awesome haha

Bron Bron my man, fix that jumper, you can't be a top five player of all time and be without a jumpshot for 2 years in your prime bruh that **** was wet in '14, I just don't get it.

Here's hoping for a competitive series, still