I can't believe I'm doing this:Irving to Utah - Cavs/Suns/Jazz

[Texas Chuck]

uh Chris Paul is still an incredible player. I can't honestly believe this continues to be a debate on this board. Of course this board tends to fetishize youth over impact and is irrationally terrified of contracts with less than 3 years remaining on them.

I don't like the OP for Cleveland as I think Kyrie is a better player and Bledsoe's injury history scares me. I'd cut Phoenix out and take Hayward and re-sign Delly.

Never said he wasn't. He's just not as incredible as previous. If we say LeBron has declined from his peak does that necessarily mean we are saying he's no longer incredible?

I actually think this board fetishizes statistics as well. Many of the posters seem to believe the whole game can be boiled down to numbers. I couldn't disagree more.

I didn't post any statistics, but you can take any kind of statistic, box score or advance, you can take the eye test, you can take the opinion of players, coaches, respected analysts, front office types and they all same the exact same thing: Chris Paul just had an unbelievable year on top of another unbelievable year last year. He is by no means a declining player. I'd argue these past 2 years he's better even than 08 which is widely considered his peak. He's a brilliant, brilliant player and he does it at both ends.

[bleeds_purple]

I didn't post any statistics, but you can take any kind of statistic, box score or advance, you can take the eye test, you can take the opinion of players, coaches, respected analysts, front office types and they all same the exact same thing: Chris Paul just had an unbelievable year on top of another unbelievable year last year. He is by no means a declining player. I'd argue these past 2 years he's better even than 08 which is widely considered his peak. He's a brilliant, brilliant player and he does it at both ends.

Wasn't referring to you when bringing up stats just the board in general is overly obsessed with composite statistics.

I'm actually rather surprised so many people are not accepting the reality of a 31 year old not being as good as he was in his 20s. This is a near absolute. Virtually no one in their 30s is as good as they were in their prime.

Certainly he had a great year. There's no denying it.

[Texas Chuck]

I'm actually rather surprised so many people are not accepting the reality of a 31 year old not being as good as he was in his 20s. This is a near absolute. Virtually no one in their 30s is as good as they were in their prime.

.

Primes extend well into their 30's for a lot of players. There is usually some physical decline sure, but the mental advantages often make up for that. Dream and Mailman had their best years in their 30s'. As did Nash. Dirk had arguably his best year in 2011. Sam Cassell just kept getting better and better peaking in his mid 30's. I could go on.

I just think we need to look at each player as an individual and judge him on his own merits. It's irrelevant if other players decline if the specific player isn't. And Chris Paul imo at least isn't in any kind of decline.

[bondom34]

I think that teams evaluate players based on what they can and can't do to positively impact a game, or the scoreboard. Which is not the eye test. The eye test tells me for example Irving is a marvelously talented player. The stats don't agree at all.

And the scoreboard is the result, and its a results based game. You can have any amount of ability, but if you don't increase odds of winning, it doesn't matter.

The notion that someone watching the game cannot watch it with a level of sophistication to discern style over substance is a rather silly statement to make.

Regarding results you hear coaches (e.g. JVG) talk about this all the time they don't care if the shot goes in as long as the offense is running correctly and the right shot was taken. They care more about the process and the system than the ultimate result. Obviously, at the end of the day the result is all that matters but the idea is to focus on what you can control so that better results are obtained.

And Paul controls the offense in a way no other PG out there can or does, even today. To add, the numbers all back this up and again the scoreboard is all that matters. There's not a player out there who shows up great on numbers who doesn't pass an eye test.

If a player results in winning, he's a good player, and Paul is doing that as much or more than ever.

[bleeds_purple]

I basically agree with everything you guys just said. Just saying I think he's declined in some important aspects as compared to his younger years.

[Trader_Joe]

I basically agree with everything you guys just said. Just saying I think he's declined in some important aspects as compared to his younger years.

Even if there is/are some areas you can point to a decline, they are more than made up by his improvements in other areas and thus he is not on an overall decline. Paul is very cerebral and plays a very cerebral position. His experience and IQ is something that does improve with age and is an enormous benefit at the PG position on both offense and defense.

[bleeds_purple]

I basically agree with everything you guys just said. Just saying I think he's declined in some important aspects as compared to his younger years.

Even if there is/are some areas you can point to a decline, they are more than made up by his improvements in other areas and thus he is not on an overall decline. Paul is very cerebral and plays a very cerebral position. His experience and IQ is something that does improve with age and is an enormous benefit at the PG position on both offense and defense.

Pretty much agree on everything here. That being said, reasonable minds can differ. When your're the number one guy on offense the most important thing at the end of games is to be able to reliably create your own shot. I think Paul has significantly declined in this all-important aspect.

[Kupchak9]

Hayward's value is being so underrated here. PG is the easiest position to fill in this league while there are barely any SFs that can lead your team in scoring these days.

[jayjaysee]

If we say LeBron has declined from his peak does that necessarily mean we are saying he's no longer incredible?

Not if you remember to add that he is still incredible. But to keep it in context, it would be defending LeBron for Demar because LeBron has started his decline.

[bleeds_purple]

If we say LeBron has declined from his peak does that necessarily mean we are saying he's no longer incredible?

Not if you remember to add that he is still incredible. But to keep it in context, it would be defending LeBron for Demar because LeBron has started his decline.

At no point in this thread did I advocate for an Irving for Paul deal.

[bigmean]

this is literally the best deal I seen in a while, kudos Bondom

[bwgood77]

Epic fail by the OP.

Irving >>> Hayward

I'd certainly rather have Hayward.

[Who-rod]

Epic fail by the OP.

Irving >>> Hayward

I'd certainly rather have Hayward.

When the Cavs lose, it's Lebron doesn't have the cast to get it done. When offers are made for Kyrie, it's "Kyrie is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than x". Can both those concepts co-exist?

[bwgood77]

Epic fail by the OP.

Irving >>> Hayward

I'd certainly rather have Hayward.

When the Cavs lose, it's Lebron doesn't have the cast to get it done. When offers are made for Kyrie, it's "Kyrie is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than x". Can both those concepts co-exist?

I don't see much with Kyrie. He's a scoring pg averaging 4.7 assists and shot 32% from 3 this year. He doesn't seem to play very efficiently and doesn't play much defense. He seemed to regress a ton this year as well.

His numbers look almost identical to Knight's. He shoots better from 2 pt range and turns it over a bit less but that's about it. I'm not really a Brandon Knight fan, so I can't see at all why Irving is thought of so highly.

http://bkref.com/tiny/QUn8I

I've never been a fan of shoot first point guards though. If Bledsoe was always healthy I'd rather have him, and I'd definitely rather have Hayward.

[sfballa13]

You're assuming there's a single reason to trade him.

If CP3 has a chance to play with Lebron he will take it, sorry.

They are best friends, take family vacations together

He could privately approach Doc for a trade or make it public that he wants out and only will report to the Cavs

No team would give up anything for a one year rental for him

Not saying that CP3 is getting too old that Kyrie is better im saying that CP3 wants to play with Lebron and only has one year left on his deal

Maybe this doesnt go down but one thing is for sure, Lebron is taking a 1 year deal so he can take a cut the following year to recruit Paul. Clippers wont have any leverage except for an extra year on his next deal and CP3 could give two **** about that

The Clippers have 2 stars and a better team than the Cavs. The others are also younger than Lebron, and CP wouldn't leave for that.

And CP doesn't want to play with Lebron. Thats flat made up.

CP3 doesnt want to play with Lebron...keep dreaming

Besides Melo and Wade, CP3 is Lebron's best friend

To win a chip with Melo and Bron would be his dream but yeh flat out made up

Also Melo + Lebron >>>>>>>>>>>> Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan SORRY

Bottom line CP3 has his choice of where to play and it wont be in LA, save this thread for future reference

[sfballa13]

Heh I'm glad bondom is here to answer everything exactly the way I would, but in a more articulated way

I think both trades in the OP are fair, I actually think Hayward is a better player than Irving and a guy that you can better fit on almost any team. The Bledsoe trade, it'd be fair if Bled had healthy knees, but as is it's pretty risky from the Cavs' part, so I probably wouldn't do it if I were them.

Re: the Paul-Irving situation, the whole premise is flawed because without Paul, the Clippers stop being any sort of semi-serious threat to go deep in the post-season. It doesn't matter how much older he is, or how long he'll play, without him the title window is gone, and it likely doesn't come back until Irving is retired, if it ever does. Kyrie is never coming close to 33-year-old Paul's level of impact. If you wanna keep insisting on youth, I have a really young Austin Rivers to trade for your team's best role player.

I definitely agree he's much smarter a player at this stage of his career and basically maximizes what he has. But his impact on offense was just greater during his peak athleticism days. He doesn't put the same pressure on a defense like he used to. Its the same as we're seeing with LeBron. They will still get their 20-25 points but its not quite the same. No need to double or even adjust the defense much.

So, I guess you are impressed by nice crossovers and highlight plays, cause even without his young-self speed, he absolutely puts more pressure on the defense than he did in his NO years. Whether it's the threat of him taking one of his infallible midrange shots, or the threat of feeding Jordan for a lob, or feeding Redick for an open weakside 3, or whatever, he bends the defense at will, in a way that young Paul couldn't do. He's been improving every year since he came here and he's enough to carry nearly any team to a top offense by himself. He just did by dragging Luc Mbah A Moute and the corpse of Paul Pierce to a top 6 offense.

If CP3 has a chance to play with Lebron he will take it, sorry.

They are best friends, take family vacations together

He could privately approach Doc for a trade or make it public that he wants out and only will report to the Cavs

No team would give up anything for a one year rental for him

Not saying that CP3 is getting too old that Kyrie is better im saying that CP3 wants to play with Lebron and only has one year left on his deal

Maybe this doesnt go down but one thing is for sure, Lebron is taking a 1 year deal so he can take a cut the following year to recruit Paul. Clippers wont have any leverage except for an extra year on his next deal and CP3 could give two **** about that

Heh, we remember that song from 4 years ago, when he was best friends with Melo and was surely about force a trade to the Knicks (he made a toast!!), and then he'd surely want to play with Howard and he'd leave in free agency to the Hawks, and I don't remember how many other reasons he'd never re-sign with the Clippers. If I'm honest, I think he's more likely to take a paycut next summer to get some help here, than to go chasing a ring with Lebron.

CP3 knew better than to orchestrate a trade to NY and deplete the team further like what Melo did when he forced his way to NY

Playing with Howard on the Hawks is not the same as playing with LeBron desperate to bring a championship to Cleveland

Sorry to break it to everyone on here there is not a chance in hell that the Clippers beat the Warriors or Spurs in a 7 game series as they have no way of acquiring any quality help with the crazy deals that will be handed out this offseason

Your comparisons from years ago have nothing to do with what's going on right now

CP3 has tops 5-6 years left in the league. He is not wasting another one away after next season with the Clippers.

He wants to win and Lebron/Melo/Thompson in the East is his best shot.

[Dupp]

Kyrie's not worth more than CP3, that's not even a debate. I just don't know what to add here.

Cp3s value is getting overrated. Age and what not fine but he's literally injured every post season.

I'd trade Irving for him sure but cp3 is not without major risks and I love him.

[basketballwacko2]

Simple basis:

Utah trades Hayward for Irving.

Gets the long term PG upgrade and his defensive problems should be helped by having Favors and Gobert behind him. Hood seems pretty ready to take Hayward's spot.

Cleveland trades Irving for Bledsoe.

Just really a better fit at PG to me, a solid defender and better athlete.

Phoenix trades Bledsoe for Hayward.

Phoenix gets a still young wing to go with the core and can draft Dunn to start over Knight.

I think it needs something more to the Cavs but not sure what.

This is a pretty fair deal it feels like the Cavs need a little more. Phoenix improves the most by adding a quality sf, I'd have them send the #28 pick back to the Cavs and Utah has 3 2nds send 1 of them to the Cavs.

[bondom34]

If CP3 has a chance to play with Lebron he will take it, sorry.

They are best friends, take family vacations together

He could privately approach Doc for a trade or make it public that he wants out and only will report to the Cavs

No team would give up anything for a one year rental for him

Not saying that CP3 is getting too old that Kyrie is better im saying that CP3 wants to play with Lebron and only has one year left on his deal

Maybe this doesnt go down but one thing is for sure, Lebron is taking a 1 year deal so he can take a cut the following year to recruit Paul. Clippers wont have any leverage except for an extra year on his next deal and CP3 could give two **** about that

The Clippers have 2 stars and a better team than the Cavs. The others are also younger than Lebron, and CP wouldn't leave for that.

And CP doesn't want to play with Lebron. Thats flat made up.

CP3 doesnt want to play with Lebron...keep dreaming

Besides Melo and Wade, CP3 is Lebron's best friend

To win a chip with Melo and Bron would be his dream but yeh flat out made up

Also Melo + Lebron >>>>>>>>>>>> Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan SORRY

Bottom line CP3 has his choice of where to play and it wont be in LA, save this thread for future reference

Then why would he stay in LA last time? Seems odd if he had the chance before and didn't do it.

[bondom34]

Kyrie's not worth more than CP3, that's not even a debate. I just don't know what to add here.

Cp3s value is getting overrated. Age and what not fine but he's literally injured every post season.

I'd trade Irving for him sure but cp3 is not without major risks and I love him.

Actually it was this season and last from what I recall.

And hey, at least he's dragged his team to the postseason. Kyrie needs Lebron to get there.