All prime - Shaq/Malone or Hakeem/Barkley?

[Quotatious]

Imagine they played together in their primes - which duo would be better? Assume they would have equal supporting casts and no third star on their team (only role players).

[BenoUdrihFTL]

I've subjectively always felt that

prime Hakeem > prime Shaq

prime Barkley > prime Malone

So this a pretty easy choice for me. But beyond that, I also think Hakeem/Barkley just compliment eachother better and there's potential for real synergy there between the two due to their offensive versatility and adaptability. Whereas with Shaq/Malone I think there's much more overlap between their games because they're clearly less versatile players. You could actually make the argument that they're one-dimensional offensive players. It's just always hard to project Malone in these hypotheticals because we never saw a prime Malone without John Stockton. I mean, without Stockton, and instead now having to defer to Shaq down low, does Malone become an Orlando Magic Horace Grant paired with Shaq? Just getting rebounds, playing defense, and shooting 10-16 ft jumpers whenever the defense collapses on Shaq?

[Quotatious]

It's just always hard to project Malone in these hypotheticals because we never saw a prime Malone without John Stockton.

Well, we saw Malone in his peak-ish form playing 18 games without Stockton at beginning of the 1997-98 season. I know 18 games is a very small sample (basically like a full playoff run, but with less intensity than in the playoffs), but that's by far the biggest sample we have for prime Malone without Stockton.

Karl averaged:

24.9 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.1 spg, 0,9 bpg, 3.6 tpg, 3.2 fpg, 58.2% TS (52.3% FG) in 36.6 mpg, 19.3 GameScore

In the 63 games he played with Stockton that year, he averaged:

27.7 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.9 tpg, 2.9 fpg, 60.1% TS (53.2% FG) in 37.6 mpg, 22.2 GameScore

He was better with John than without him, but it's not a big difference, so by and large, Karl was fine. Jazz only went 11-7 during Stock's absence, so it seems like the team just didn't click as well as they did when they had John to run the show (which is to be expected, as he was still a top 5 PG and probably still the best "floor general" and facilitator in the league). Karl, being the superstar and top 3 MVP candidate that he was, didn't seem to be affected by John's presence or lack of presence, a lot.

Seems safe to assume that Malone still would've been a top 5 superstar without Stockton, probably about 97-98% of the player he was with John. Role players, more than Karl, seemed to be affected by Stockton's playmaking (which makes sense, because Malone had a lot of tools on the low block, he could post up really well, could shoot a mid-range jumper, he didn't really live and die by the pick & roll as much as people think).

[Colbinii]

Karl Malone has a 13 year prime, which should be accounted for in this scenario.

[Joao Saraiva]

Well if we take their longevity of prime into account, then Malone and Shaq might have the edge.

If it's simply putting them together for 3 or 4 years I'm going with Hakeem and Barkley.
- Better rim protection: Hakeem;
- Best PnR defender is Hakeem. Barkley is not that good, but neither is Shaq;
- Better floor spacing. I think Barkley as a PF had fantastic ball handling skills and had more range than Malone. Same with Hakeem, wich will allow Barkley to operate better in the low post than Malone with Shaq.

Of course I can't go wrong with Shaq and Malone either, they're a great force. I just feel it's a better fit between the other two.

[JordansBulls]

Good picks weird thing is we saw both of these combo's and neither won a title together.

[Pipp33]

I went with Hakeem and Charles mainly due to Barkley's better ball handling and range.

[Quotatious]

weird thing is we saw both of these combo's and neither won a title together.

This is exactly why I created this thread.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

I don't think Shaq and Malone have the offensive versatility of Barkley and Hakeem. Shaq and Malone may need to take turns scoring where as Hakeem and Barkley can help each other score.

[GSP]

Good picks weird thing is we saw both of these combo's and neither won a title together.

Well we didnt see these combos with each pair in their primes (would be a stretch to say 97 Hakeem/Chuck was their prime IMO)

[Quotatious]

Good picks weird thing is we saw both of these combo's and neither won a title together.

Well we didnt see these combos with each pair in their primes (would be a stretch to say 97 Hakeem/Chuck was their prime IMO)

Hakeem was still in his prime in '97, but Charles was already starting to break down physically. Not to mention that adding Drexler to the mix, creates a whole different dynamic between them, because they had to incorporate another high volume offensive player who liked to post up. 97 Hakeem/Charles are still closer to what they would look like together in their primes than 04 Shaq/Karl, though (Kobe changes the Shaq/Karl dynamic even more than Clyde changes the Hakeem/Charles dynamic, and Karl was 40 years old in 03/04...compared to only 33/34 for Charles in 96/97).

I said Barkley started to break down physically in 96-97 season, but I would like to say something about his longevity - it's much better than he usually gets credit for. Barkley, even when he could barely dunk anymore (by his own admission), in 99 and 00, was still averaging a double-double on good efficiency (16/12 on 54.6% TS and 23.1 PER in '99, and 14.5/10.5 on 53.4% TS and 19.8 PER in 20 games in 2000, before he retired!!!).

It's pretty amazing that a 6'5''/6'6'' power forward who relied on athleticism for most of his career, was able to age so well. He also had 11 consecutive seasons with at least 20 points and 10 rebounds per game, between 1986 and 1996, never played less than 65 games in any of those seasons, averaging 37.9 mpg - that's excellent longevity. Not quite as amazing as Malone's, but still very, very good (not to mention that he was a very meaningful contributor in 1985 and 1997-00, too).

[ronnymac2]

Shaq/Malone. I'm surprised people are saying Dream/Sir Charles would have superior chemistry. I think it's the opposite. Shaq and Malone had absolutely amazing chemistry in 2004. Malone's passing into Shaq was exquisite. Malone also spread the floor for Shaq with his jump shot. Olajuwon and Barkley are versatile scorers, but they really operate in the same part of the floor. I think Malone is the best jump shooter here. I know Barkley could shoot 3's, but to me if he's shooting 3's, it's a win for the defense.

I also like Malone/O'Neal on defense. Just very solid and intimidating. Olajuwon is clearly the best defender here, but Barkley is the weakest.

I dunno. I guess you can go either way. Just surprised chemistry is being used as a reason to take the former Rocket duo.

[BullBearBidness]

Shaq/Malone. I'm surprised people are saying Dream/Sir Charles would have superior chemistry. I think it's the opposite. Shaq and Malone had absolutely amazing chemistry in 2004. Malone's passing into Shaq was exquisite. Malone also spread the floor for Shaq with his jump shot. Olajuwon and Barkley are versatile scorers, but they really operate in the same part of the floor. I think Malone is the best jump shooter here. I know Barkley could shoot 3's, but to me if he's shooting 3's, it's a win for the defense.

I also like Malone/O'Neal on defense. Just very solid and intimidating. Olajuwon is clearly the best defender here, but Barkley is the weakest.

I dunno. I guess you can go either way. Just surprised chemistry is being used as a reason to take the former Rocket duo.

This. Very much this.

The way I see it is that the level of ownage might be roughly equal between these Duos. However, the WAY in which Shaq and Malone would own is more unique and valuable if we're talking today's NBA, if you get my drift....

[thekdog34]

Shaq/Malone. I'm surprised people are saying Dream/Sir Charles would have superior chemistry. I think it's the opposite. Shaq and Malone had absolutely amazing chemistry in 2004. Malone's passing into Shaq was exquisite. Malone also spread the floor for Shaq with his jump shot. Olajuwon and Barkley are versatile scorers, but they really operate in the same part of the floor. I think Malone is the best jump shooter here. I know Barkley could shoot 3's, but to me if he's shooting 3's, it's a win for the defense.

I also like Malone/O'Neal on defense. Just very solid and intimidating. Olajuwon is clearly the best defender here, but Barkley is the weakest.

I dunno. I guess you can go either way. Just surprised chemistry is being used as a reason to take the former Rocket duo.

Having watched Hakeem and barkley play together, I agree with this.

hakeem-barkley wasnt really that great in terms of chemistry. They both liked the same spots on the floor. Not that it was terrible though

[Quotatious]

Shaq/Malone. I'm surprised people are saying Dream/Sir Charles would have superior chemistry. I think it's the opposite. Shaq and Malone had absolutely amazing chemistry in 2004. Malone's passing into Shaq was exquisite. Malone also spread the floor for Shaq with his jump shot. Olajuwon and Barkley are versatile scorers, but they really operate in the same part of the floor. I think Malone is the best jump shooter here. I know Barkley could shoot 3's, but to me if he's shooting 3's, it's a win for the defense.

I also like Malone/O'Neal on defense. Just very solid and intimidating. Olajuwon is clearly the best defender here, but Barkley is the weakest.

I dunno. I guess you can go either way. Just surprised chemistry is being used as a reason to take the former Rocket duo.

Having watched Hakeem and barkley play together, I agree with this.

hakeem-barkley wasnt really that great in terms of chemistry. They both liked the same spots on the floor. Not that it was terrible though

Yeah, both Hakeem and Barkley had ball-stopping tendencies. They were both very good passers and highly effective scorers in low post isolation, so it wasn't a big deal, but that fit really wasn't perfect by any means.

[Montavious Bart]

Assuming the supporting casts are equal, you gotta favor any team with prime Oatmeal.

[Dee45]

Great question, but I would go with Shaq/Malone. Both duos would have been great if they were in their primes though.

[henshao]

Barkley would be by far the best player Hakeem played alongside in his prime, chemistry is a complete aside here IMO