Not In The Face - The Jeremy Lin Thread 3 + 1

[lookabove]

I watched most the Hornets games this year and biggest thing I notice was Lin seem to play significantly better when he started. I pull splits and stat confirm the eye test. Even for his Career Lin just more efficient when he start. He seems to rhythm player that need touches to get into his groove. Honestly as a pure bench player this year he didn't play that well. 51.8% true shooting is below average, but definitely brought defensive intensity every game. But when Lin started for the Hornets, he put borderline all-star numbers at top-tier efficiency. Only 6 other players this year had TS% >= 58.9 and put up 17.5 pts per game.

If I was Lin, he really needs to try to find a starter position.

With Cha
Started Games 13 - 17.5 ppg 4.0 rpg 4.8 apg 2.46 tov TS% 58.9 in 34.4 min
Bench Games 65 - 10.6 ppg 3.1 rpg 2.6 apg 1.81 tov TS% 51.8 in 24.6 min

Career
Started Games 183 - 14.2 ppg 3.1 rpg 5.7 apg 3.05 tov TS% 55.2 in 32.2 min
Bench Games 186 - 9.2 ppg 2.5 rpg 3.1 apg 1.68 tov TS% 53.2 in 21.4 min

[rallydurham]

You use the big game argument but then you point out the biggest game of the year was game 6 and he choked at home... I don't understand how that helps his case...

If we had unlimited funds I'd love to have jeremy lin back as a backup guard. But we do not and the money is much better allocated to more important roles like marvin williams our starting power forward. We will need to save money for zeller extension.

Lin is getting older and his game is predicated on athleticism. I don't want to use salary cap space to lock up a backup pg when our best player is a pg it makes no sense...

[bws94]

You use the big game argument but then you point out the biggest game of the year was game 6 and he choked at home... I don't understand how that helps his case...

If we had unlimited funds I'd love to have jeremy lin back as a backup guard. But we do not and the money is much better allocated to more important roles like marvin williams our starting power forward. We will need to save money for zeller extension.

Lin is getting older and his game is predicated on athleticism. I don't want to use salary cap space to lock up a backup pg when our best player is a pg it makes no sense...

And will you give him credit for what he did in games 3, 4 and 5? It works both ways. And Lin is a guy off the bench getting the attention one pays to a starter from the other coach. When he was asked who the Heat were worried about and were game-planning for, Spoestra was asked about Kemba and Batum, but said we have to worry about Jeremy Lin too.

Yes, Lin stunk in game 6. But so did Marvin and Courtney Lee. They choked as well. If they had played halfway decently the team goes on to round 2 and picks him up they way he's picked them up in the series with Batum being down. But not only did they choke that game, they choked most games. But do you even get to a game 6 without Lin? Think about it.

Anyway, we're just going in circles. I know your views on Lin. And maybe he's not back with the team. And I've said enough on how I feel Lin contributed to the team last season.

[TinmanZBoy]

I've said this before, the general positive tone about lin's success in Charlotte had a lot to do with the low contract and low expectation at the beginning of the season... it was not his best individual season at all... To be honest, I thought he should have absolutely killed last season since he was playing in the east, historically he was pretty good against eastern conference teams and guards... however his shooting dragged him down...there is no excuse for him, 4 years after his break-out and he shoots like this? really really dragged him down on offense... he has to improve his skills, particularly shooting...
he always has the ability to defend, in Clifford's system, he excelled and coach clifford recognizes his talents on defense, he is always better at defending PnRs and help defense than P. Beverley, Ronnie Price, Tony Douglas etc, McHale/Scott did not recognize that, they felt he had to be a pesky on ball defender to start with, which was wrong... quite frankly, defense is the least that I am worried about him...
Lin is like a lot of good players in this league, even for some all star level players, they need certain conditions to shine... they are not super stars... Hornets is a goos situation for him, but not an ideal one...

[uballer]

You use the big game argument but then you point out the biggest game of the year was game 6 and he choked at home... I don't understand how that helps his case...

If we had unlimited funds I'd love to have jeremy lin back as a backup guard. But we do not and the money is much better allocated to more important roles like marvin williams our starting power forward. We will need to save money for zeller extension.

Lin is getting older and his game is predicated on athleticism. I don't want to use salary cap space to lock up a backup pg when our best player is a pg it makes no sense...

And will you give him credit for what he did in games 3, 4 and 5? It works both ways. And Lin is a guy off the bench getting the attention one pays to a starter from the other coach. When he was asked who the Heat were worried about and were game-planning for, Spoestra was asked about Kemba and Batum, but said we have to worry about Jeremy Lin too.

Yes, Lin stunk in game 6. But so did Marvin and Courtney Lee. They choked as well. If they had played halfway decently the team goes on to round 2 and picks him up they way he's picked them up in the series with Batum being down. But not only did they choke that game, they choked most games. But do you even get to a game 6 without Lin? Think about it.

Anyway, we're just going in circles. I know your views on Lin. And maybe he's not back with the team. And I've said enough on how I feel Lin contributed to the team last season.

Good points. I think most people would agree with you. But I am afraid that you have been wasting your time to convince him.

[rallydurham]

I mean overall his playoff stats were okay. Not great and not terrible. Hes an okay player. I am of the mindset that you should never, ever use cap space to sign an okay player. Cap space should always be used on acquiring stars.

You use the MLE or extend okay players once the cap space is used.

If you use cap space on average players then you really limit your potential in building a team.

So even if jeremy had played better i still wouldn't recommend signing a backup pg using our cap space.

I'd say lets lock in kemba, batum, mkg, marv, Cody lineup for next season.,. With daniels lamb, frank, hawes, #22 pick off the bench....

Then when the cap spikes next year let's sign the best free agent we can. Then let's use the full MLE on whatever we can get and let's go for it.

Lin has no utility here for $12m

[jtsmith]

not sure how reliable this site is but they're reporting that Lin turned down an offer from Charlotte to rework his contract and salary to $5.6 million

the 5.6 is the MLE?

[rallydurham]

5.6 is the MLE so perhaps we are allowed to offer it to him formally... I'm not sure how that works.

It makes sense becuase we can't offer him otherwise yet before renouncing cap holds and such when free agency opens...


Obviously he wasn't gonna accept even if it was possible as he's currently projected at double that per season with long term security

[JMAC3]

When it comes down to Lin, I want him back and I think we would be foolish to not want him back. He is a top backup pg in the league, but it will come down to his offers across the league.

However, like I said he is a top BACKUP PG. I have a hard time believing a team is going to be willing to break the bank to offer Lin 10+ million and a starting role when he has struggled in the past in this role. Also, he does show spurts of being capable, but he is a really inconsistent player that I would not be eager to count on night in and night out to play 36 mins a night as my starter. His stats this season were underwhelming and somewhat disappointing, but at the same time was sometimes our 3rd best player. This screams that he should be a bench spark to me and when he has it going on then ride him, but when he is off then play him less that night. Those are not really luxuries you can have when you are paying him to be your starter on a multi-year deal.

It is tough for me to consider him starting next season, when you consider the limited number of potential openings...

Dallas, Philly, New York, Brooklyn and Houston

Then take into account Rondo and Deron Williams are likely to take two of those spots.

Kris Dunn, Jamal Murray, Wade Baldwin, Demetrius Jackson, Dejounte Murray, and Tyler Ulis all are intriguing prospects with higher upside and much cheaper than Lin if those teams look to solve PG through draft.

Then take into account Ricky Rubio, Jeff Teague, Eric Bledsoe, Brandon Knight, and Michael Carter-Williams are all guys who could be dealt for this offseason for one reason or another.

I think when all said and done we have a higher chance of losing Lin to a team looking for a combo guard off the bench then a team offering a starting role. Thus, it will likely come down to the money each team is willing to offer a bench guard. At some point you would think Lin is going to want to stay with a team for a longer tenure than a year or 2, but again I am just speculating.

[fatlever]

not sure how reliable this site is but they're reporting that Lin turned down an offer from Charlotte to rework his contract and salary to $5.6 million

the 5.6 is the MLE?

I think that article is just speculating that Charlotte could only offer Lin the MLE (read something similar on the ESPN article that picked up the news that Lin opted out - or really intends to opt out). Obviously there's not much truth to what they are saying because Charlotte can offer Lin a much bigger deal using salary cap space, if they so choose.

Seems like there is just a lot of bad info floating around this week regarding Lin, probably because any hack can post a Lin "news" story and expect instant clicks.

[Liver_Pooty]

Replaceable. Hope he comes back, but I think Marvin Williams is a bigger priority.

[Braggins]

If Lin is willing to sign for the MLE for one more season that would be absolutely awesome.

[tonman]

When it comes down to Lin, I want him back and I think we would be foolish to not want him back. He is a top backup pg in the league, but it will come down to his offers across the league.

However, like I said he is a top BACKUP PG. I have a hard time believing a team is going to be willing to break the bank to offer Lin 10+ million and a starting role when he has struggled in the past in this role. Also, he does show spurts of being capable, but he is a really inconsistent player that I would not be eager to count on night in and night out to play 36 mins a night as my starter. His stats this season were underwhelming and somewhat disappointing, but at the same time was sometimes our 3rd best player. This screams that he should be a bench spark to me and when he has it going on then ride him, but when he is off then play him less that night. Those are not really luxuries you can have when you are paying him to be your starter on a multi-year deal.

It is tough for me to consider him starting next season, when you consider the limited number of potential openings...

Dallas, Philly, New York, Brooklyn and Houston

Then take into account Rondo and Deron Williams are likely to take two of those spots.

Kris Dunn, Jamal Murray, Wade Baldwin, Demetrius Jackson, Dejounte Murray, and Tyler Ulis all are intriguing prospects with higher upside and much cheaper than Lin if those teams look to solve PG through draft.

Then take into account Ricky Rubio, Jeff Teague, Eric Bledsoe, Brandon Knight, and Michael Carter-Williams are all guys who could be dealt for this offseason for one reason or another.

I think when all said and done we have a higher chance of losing Lin to a team looking for a combo guard off the bench then a team offering a starting role. Thus, it will likely come down to the money each team is willing to offer a bench guard. At some point you would think Lin is going to want to stay with a team for a longer tenure than a year or 2, but again I am just speculating.

This is what annoys me. You say Lin struggled in a starting capacity yet take away Linsanity in new York he only had one season as the unquestioned starter and he averaged 14.6 and 6 assists in his first full season in the NBA. Perhaps some team should try developing him? And now he's too old to start. Figure that one out.

[Liver_Pooty]

If Lin is willing to sign for the MLE for one more season that would be absolutely awesome.

Great backup. Well worth the MLE. I'd go up to 8/24 for him over 3 years. This double digit stuff is nonsense. Good riddance if that's the case. 10 mill plus? Lol.

[KM6]

If Lin is willing to sign for the MLE for one more season that would be absolutely awesome.

Great backup. Well worth the MLE. I'd go up to 8/24 for him over 3 years. This double digit stuff is nonsense. Good riddance if that's the case. 10 mill plus? Lol.

Nonsense or not, we will see real soon.

[ChokeFasncists]

Lin opting out doesn't mean that he has ruled out re-sign with the Hornets. Just means he wants more money AND the opportunity at exploring other options. That being said, If he commands 9-10M from other teams, I'm not sure if Charlotte would be willing to match that given his role and playing time here.

Don't forget more security, a longer contract.

I think the biggest obstacle to retaining Lin/Lee is actually Lamb unfortunately. You can offer either a bigger contract and a bigger role if Lamb's 7m were not there.

Lamb is probably tradeable. Even tho he lost PT he did play well at the beginning of the season. With the Lee trade and how he meshes with the team and Cliff, I'd imagine Cho would try to trade Lamb if at least three of the FAs are back.

[BatumtheGlue]

If Lin is willing to sign for the MLE for one more season that would be absolutely awesome.

Great backup. Well worth the MLE. I'd go up to 8/24 for him over 3 years. This double digit stuff is nonsense. Good riddance if that's the case. 10 mill plus? Lol.

Agreed. I'd rather to have him back than Lee, but absolutely not for a 10 mill plus.

[gafun]

If Lin is willing to sign for the MLE for one more season that would be absolutely awesome.

Great backup. Well worth the MLE. I'd go up to 8/24 for him over 3 years. This double digit stuff is nonsense. Good riddance if that's the case. 10 mill plus? Lol.

The only reason Lin couldn't get 10mil+ would be that he stays as a backup. But I think he would rather have 8m as starting pg than 10m as a backup.

[ChokeFasncists]

As a PG he's bottom quartile in almost every imaginable ball security and facilitating metric.

OK, his ball handling is subpar but it has improved quite a bit. His passing is definitely not bad except for TOs.

As a guard in general, he was bottom third as a shooter (to be kind)

Remember the shooting form change tho. He was shooting around 40% from deep for stretches with the Lakers.

and can't defend larger 2's.

He did fine against Middleton, it was a great comeback. He guarded JJ pretty well in the playoffs.

Courtney's not a PG (or whatever SG) but that matters little if Lin's the inferior SG option 80% of the time, a role Lin plays in part because Clifford doesn't trust him at PG.

Lin's definitely the better scorer and passer than Courtney.

His best attribute is driving and getting to the line - which counter intuitively is a defensive metric - but again, that value is mitigated by opportunity costs (Lamb) or foregoing better defensive options with a traditionally sized wing.

Lamb doesn't even play when it counts. Who knows what happens with him? Is he ever gonna get his act together, not make mistakes and gain trust from Cliff?

Besides driving and FT, Lin's passing to good finishing bigs is also pretty good. His jumper should be fixed soon. His fastbreaking ability was underutilized the past season.

[kinein]

not sure how reliable this site is but they're reporting that Lin turned down an offer from Charlotte to rework his contract and salary to $5.6 million

the 5.6 is the MLE?

He is reporting from the Sultanate of Oman.

Now where is that Cargo Vessel - you know that super tanker with the Salt Shipment for the next 5 years for American consumption.