Not In The Face - The Jeremy Lin Thread 3 + 1

[Lorenzomax7]

When it comes down to Lin, I want him back and I think we would be foolish to not want him back. He is a top backup pg in the league, but it will come down to his offers across the league.

However, like I said he is a top BACKUP PG. I have a hard time believing a team is going to be willing to break the bank to offer Lin 10+ million and a starting role when he has struggled in the past in this role. Also, he does show spurts of being capable, but he is a really inconsistent player that I would not be eager to count on night in and night out to play 36 mins a night as my starter. His stats this season were underwhelming and somewhat disappointing, but at the same time was sometimes our 3rd best player. This screams that he should be a bench spark to me and when he has it going on then ride him, but when he is off then play him less that night. Those are not really luxuries you can have when you are paying him to be your starter on a multi-year deal.

It is tough for me to consider him starting next season, when you consider the limited number of potential openings...

Dallas, Philly, New York, Brooklyn and Houston

Then take into account Rondo and Deron Williams are likely to take two of those spots.

Kris Dunn, Jamal Murray, Wade Baldwin, Demetrius Jackson, Dejounte Murray, and Tyler Ulis all are intriguing prospects with higher upside and much cheaper than Lin if those teams look to solve PG through draft.

Then take into account Ricky Rubio, Jeff Teague, Eric Bledsoe, Brandon Knight, and Michael Carter-Williams are all guys who could be dealt for this offseason for one reason or another.

I think when all said and done we have a higher chance of losing Lin to a team looking for a combo guard off the bench then a team offering a starting role. Thus, it will likely come down to the money each team is willing to offer a bench guard. At some point you would think Lin is going to want to stay with a team for a longer tenure than a year or 2, but again I am just speculating.

Rondo struggled alongside another ball-dominant guard like Ellis with a stat-line of 9.3p 6.5a......

And Dragic struggled alongside Wade too with a stat-line of 14p 5.8a...

Ellis also struggled in Pacers playing alongside Hill and PG with a stat-line of 13.8p-4.7a...

Then when it comes to JLin, people tend to doubt Lin's capability of being a starting point solely because he was undrafted with that hype. Lin was averaging 13.4p-6.1a while shooting 44%(34% from 3P which was ok) in his 2nd year as a starter... but people in Houston weren't satisfied and the rumors of Lin being useless playing with Harden had spread to the whole league.

People thinking like...
"So Lin was undrafted, he must be an undrafted player for a reason. He was all hype. blah blah blah..."

Just saying.

[Lorenzomax7]

Replaceable.

No. You just can't find one who is as good as him right now as a back-up point from the FA market. Period.

[yosemiteben]

Replaceable.

No. You just can't find one who is as good as him right now as a back-up point from the FA market. Period.

To be fair, that doesn't necessarily mean much other than that it's a lean FA market for PGs.

[spaceballer]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/AlisonSu3/status/740468403048087552[/tweet]
https://twitter.com/AlisonSu3/status/740468403048087552

So apparently the raised paper image looks different depending on which side angle you're viewing it from. Either appearing as a face or as a name.

[Lorenzomax7]

Replaceable.

No. You just can't find one who is as good as him right now as a back-up point from the FA market. Period.

To be fair, that doesn't necessarily mean much other than that it's a lean FA market for PGs.

It's not lean for back-up point tho...

[rallydurham]

I don't know how anyone could honestly support paying a backup pg anywhere near 10-12m per year. It's just illogical.

Teams like Brooklyn, dallas, Philly all have incentive to offer lin much more than we should ever consider.

He's about to make as much as kemba makes. That's just silly for us to entertain

[fatlever]

I don't know how anyone could honestly support paying a backup pg anywhere near 10-12m per year. It's just illogical.

Teams like Brooklyn, dallas, Philly all have incentive to offer lin much more than we should ever consider.

He's about to make as much as kemba makes. That's just silly for us to entertain

I don't think you will find too many people - Hornets fans or Lin fans - advocating for Lin to stay a Hornet at a price tag nearing 12 mil.

Most Hornets fans have either A) come to accept letting him walk in order to use that money to resign Marvin/Lee or to chase a center or B) want him to return but at a salary lower than what he'd command as a stater - perhaps something starting around 8 mil per.

Most Lin only fans seem to prefer him to chase the dream of becoming a starter and those that are OK with Lin staying in Charlotte as a combo/6th man, most likely realize that would mean he takes less money.

I've always maintained my stance of option B, wanting Lin to return, but at a salary that is in line with his role (ie a discount to what he'd receive on open market as a starter). I agree that 12 mil for Lin starts to become too much for the role he is being asked to fill. At that salary, since it most be done with cap space, we really start to hurt ourselves at other positions, like losing Marvin/Lee or not being able to sign even a backup center.

If Lin is able to find a good situation as a starter or 6th man paying him 12+, then I wish him the best.

We'll be able to find a solid backup PG/combo eventually, maybe not this summer, but certainly by next year either by draft, FA or trade. There are just way too many good PGs in the league right now. Perhaps that backup won't be at Lin's level, who I consider to be one of the top 5 backup PGs in the league last year, but maybe the team is able to improve another position as a result.

[bws94]

I don't know how anyone could honestly support paying a backup pg anywhere near 10-12m per year. It's just illogical.

Teams like Brooklyn, dallas, Philly all have incentive to offer lin much more than we should ever consider.

He's about to make as much as kemba makes. That's just silly for us to entertain

I don't think you will find too many people - Hornets fans or Lin fans - advocating for Lin to stay a Hornet at a price tag nearing 12 mil.

Most Hornets fans have either A) come to accept letting him walk in order to use that money to resign Marvin/Lee or to chase a center or B) want him to return but at a salary lower than what he'd command as a stater - perhaps something starting around 8 mil per.

Most Lin only fans seem to prefer him to chase the dream of becoming a starter and those that are OK with Lin staying in Charlotte as a combo/6th man, most likely realize that would mean he takes less money.

I've always maintained my stance of option B, wanting Lin to return, but at a salary that is in line with his role (ie a discount to what he'd receive on open market as a starter). I agree that 12 mil for Lin starts to become too much for the role he is being asked to fill. At that salary, since it most be done with cap space, we really start to hurt ourselves at other positions, like losing Marvin/Lee or not being able to sign even a backup center.

If Lin is able to find a good situation as a starter or 6th man paying him 12+, then I wish him the best.

We'll be able to find a solid backup PG/combo eventually, maybe not this summer, but certainly by next year either by draft, FA or trade. There are just way too many good PGs in the league right now. Perhaps that backup won't be at Lin's level, who I consider to be one of the top 5 backup PGs in the league last year, but maybe the team is able to improve another position as a result.

I'm glad you called him a 6th man, because that's what he played as in Charlotte and in Houston. He really doesn't play backup PG that much. He's that dynamic second penetrator that can come up big for you at any time in any game, and that's a valuable player. I totally disagree with characterizing LIn as a "backup PG".

Lin could start fine and probably do well. He has the basics for a starting PG, but really, I don't care about that or not. Play him adequate minutes, especially if you have other people in place, and he'll help you win games. That's the quality that LIn brings.

You were 100 percent right when you said the playoffs needed Lin to step up. Despite Raliegh Durham giving him credit for nothing and stats thrown about, stats don't show you hustle and impact and pressure he puts on the other team's defense, and how that opens things up for others. With Kemba, Lin opened things up and Kemba opened up things for LIn. I don't know who could watch the playoffs and not have Lin as one of the most important players for the Hornets. And his game 6 showed it, when he sucked, the team lost even with a superstar performance from Kemba. But it's the only game he sucked.

I don't think it's outrageous to have Lin at double figures. Players get what the traffic will bear. I don't think it's respectful to ask one of your better performing players in big spots to take a discount when he already has and outplayed that discount the season before. Now, pay him. How much is fair in the Hornet's scheme of things relative to Lin's worth is something that could be worked out if Lin really wants to stay. And he may. But respect what he's done for the team and pay him. MLE stuff, I just don't think it's respectful to ask Lin to accept it. If it's a formality, ok, but it sends a bad message to me. Pay him something that says you're worth something to us that won't break the bank.

I think ultimately, Lin is just a guy you put on the floor and play around 27-32 minutes. Just put him on the floor and give him enough minutes to be productive for your team. He has better stats starting probably because he's a rhythm player and often, because he's filling in for an injured player. And I think he'll player better next season, shoot better, and have better stats. But the jumping around from team to team doesn't help him. He's acclimated in Charlotte, now it's time to work with guys you know and help them win. And it's a good group of guys. If possible, if I were Jordan and Cho, I'd make it happen. Lin and Marvin would be huge priorities. Lin and Cho/Jordan/Clifford can be win-win. If not, then Lin just establishes his journeyman status.

[yosemiteben]

I don't think it's respectful to ask one of your better performing players in big spots to take a discount when he already has and outplayed that discount the season before. Now, pay him ... But respect what he's done for the team and pay him. MLE stuff, I just don't think it's respectful to ask Lin to accept it. If it's a formality, ok, but it sends a bad message to me.

I think you're being a bit dramatic about this, I don't get this take at all. It's not our fault that we don't have Lin's BR, and it's not our fault that he signed with a team that needs to use cap space to firm up our starting rotation. This notion of respect is just wrong IMO. Lin walked into a fairly predictable cap situation when he signed what essentially is a one year deal with a team that had impending FAs at the starting SG, PF, and C positions. It doesn't make sense to me that he would complain when the cap space isn't there to resign him.

Let's be real, Lin was not great playing next to Batum and Kemba. That's not an ideal role for him. Lin fans complained all season about that, blaming his poor shooting and playmaking in that role on the fact that he didn't have the ball in his hands enough. I don't think this season has provided a ton of evidence that a Kemba - Lin - Batum lineup is a sure fire recipe for success. I think there is very little likelihood that Lin gets more PT next season than he got this season.

[fatlever]

I don't think it's outrageous to have Lin at double figures. Players get what the traffic will bear. I don't think it's respectful to ask one of your better performing players in big spots to take a discount when he already has and outplayed that discount the season before. Now, pay him. How much is fair in the Hornet's scheme of things relative to Lin's worth is something that could be worked out if Lin really wants to stay. And he may. But respect what he's done for the team and pay him. MLE stuff, I just don't think it's respectful to ask Lin to accept it. If it's a formality, ok, but it sends a bad message to me. Pay him something that says you're worth something to us that won't break the bank.

I'm not suggesting Lin isn't worth 10+ mil per season. I think he clearly is worth that much under the new salary cap. What I am saying is the Hornets cannot afford to pay Lin that kind of salary and still have any chance to keep Marvin and address the center position, two things that are equally important to the team (or keep Lee).

Lin accepting a deal for less to stay with the Hornets is unfortunately the side effect of the Hornets not having his bird rights, nothing more, nothing less. If we had Lin's bird rights, then I think we would pay more to keep him. This is one of the drawbacks to Lin signing essentially a one year deal last summer.

Lin can't stay with the Hornets for a huge salary, it just doesn't make any sense for the Hornets because they have to use cap space to sign him. If Lin wants to remain a Hornet, he'll probably have to take less than his market value. That's just the reality of the situation. Its not disrespect.

[bws94]

I don't think it's respectful to ask one of your better performing players in big spots to take a discount when he already has and outplayed that discount the season before. Now, pay him ... But respect what he's done for the team and pay him. MLE stuff, I just don't think it's respectful to ask Lin to accept it. If it's a formality, ok, but it sends a bad message to me.

I think you're being a bit dramatic about this, I don't get this take at all. It's not our fault that we don't have Lin's BR, and it's not out fault that signed with a team that needs to use cap space to firm up our starting rotation. This notion of respect is just wrong IMO. Lin walked into a fairly predictable cap situation when he signed what essentially is a one year deal with a team that had impending FAs at the starting SG, PF, and C positions. It doesn't make sense to me that he would complain when the cap space isn't there to resign him.

I'm basing it on how he performed last year on a really big discount. $2 million is nothing for Lin, that's a tiny salary for a player of his caliber. He played hurt, he came in to sub for the best player on the team and did a great job in big games that contributed to ultimately the playoff seed. I think you should reward that with at least a salary offer that says, you really stepped up for us at a discount, and this shows us with acknowledge that. Asking him to again play at a discount after that I do find insulting. It's not complaining, it's a team showing you what they think your worth is with their checkbook.

I'm not asking the Hornets to break the bank. But if they can't go with about $8 million minimum for Lin, then he needs to walk. He shouldn't devalue himself even if he loves the team. And he is worth $8 million overall.

[fatlever]

I've said it all along that the Hornets will most likely have to make a decision where they can only have 1 of these 3 things (under the assumption Batum and Marvin are resigned - using their cap holds until after others are signed)

1) Resign Lin
2) Resign Lee
3) Sign a starting caliber center (or high level backup)

[fatlever]

I don't think it's respectful to ask one of your better performing players in big spots to take a discount when he already has and outplayed that discount the season before. Now, pay him ... But respect what he's done for the team and pay him. MLE stuff, I just don't think it's respectful to ask Lin to accept it. If it's a formality, ok, but it sends a bad message to me.

I think you're being a bit dramatic about this, I don't get this take at all. It's not our fault that we don't have Lin's BR, and it's not out fault that signed with a team that needs to use cap space to firm up our starting rotation. This notion of respect is just wrong IMO. Lin walked into a fairly predictable cap situation when he signed what essentially is a one year deal with a team that had impending FAs at the starting SG, PF, and C positions. It doesn't make sense to me that he would complain when the cap space isn't there to resign him.

I'm basing it on how he performed last year on a really big discount. $2 million is nothing for Lin, that's a tiny salary for a player of his caliber. He played hurt, he came in to sub for the best player on the team and did a great job in big games that contributed to ultimately the playoff seed. I think you should reward that with at least a salary offer that says, you really stepped up for us at a discount, and this shows us with acknowledge that. Asking him to again play at a discount after that I do find insulting. It's not complaining, it's a team showing you what they think your worth is with their checkbook.

I'm not asking the Hornets to break the bank. But if they can't go with about $8 million minimum for Lin, then he needs to walk. He shouldn't devalue himself even if he loves the team. And he is worth $8 million overall.

OK, but 8 mil is different than 10-12 and 8 mil is still under his market value, which is exactly what I just said in my first post, which you seemed to take offense to.

[bws94]

I don't think it's outrageous to have Lin at double figures. Players get what the traffic will bear. I don't think it's respectful to ask one of your better performing players in big spots to take a discount when he already has and outplayed that discount the season before. Now, pay him. How much is fair in the Hornet's scheme of things relative to Lin's worth is something that could be worked out if Lin really wants to stay. And he may. But respect what he's done for the team and pay him. MLE stuff, I just don't think it's respectful to ask Lin to accept it. If it's a formality, ok, but it sends a bad message to me. Pay him something that says you're worth something to us that won't break the bank.

I'm not suggesting Lin isn't worth 10+ mil per season. I think he clearly is worth that much under the new salary cap. What I am saying is the Hornets cannot afford to pay Lin that kind of salary and still have any chance to keep Marvin and address the center position, two things that are equally important to the team (or keep Lee).

Lin accepting a deal for less to stay with the Hornets is unfortunately the side effect of the Hornets not having his bird rights, nothing more, nothing less. If we had Lin's bird rights, then I think we would pay more to keep him. This is one of the drawbacks to Lin signing essentially a one year deal last summer.

Lin can't stay with the Hornets for a huge salary, it just doesn't make any sense for the Hornets because they have to use cap space to sign him. If Lin wants to remain a Hornet, he'll probably have to take less than his market value. That's just the reality of the situation. Its not disrespect.

I'm not saying break the bank. I'm a reasonable poster. But I dislike the notion that Lin should be offered some sort of minimum when he stepped up so big when it mattered, and already at a big discount. With the insurance he provides and the depth and all that to the Hornets, he's a big part of the team. At some point you have to show him that with money. MLE is not the way. Find that right number that is respectful without breaking the bank. Lin understands the salary cap limitations and that there are other FAs in the mix.

I think it's possible to resign Lin. If its done right. But, really, I don't know what he'll be offered in the market. But I know he isn't all about money.

[fatlever]

8 mil is probably doable, (see my scenarios in the offseason thread about 15 pages back). You can resign Lin at 8, resign Marvin, resign Batum and still maybe sign a solid backup center, but it would be tight and require Hornets to renounce Lee (who was every bit as valuable as Lin down the stretch) as well as Jefferson (fine by me).

[LofJ]

$8 million is a workable number, we can realistically make that happen.

If Lin does leave though I hope he goes to Brooklyn and becomes the player everyone thought he could be during the Linsanity era. The schadenfreude from bitter Celtic fans as they watch their top 5 picks in 2017 and 2018 disappear would be glorious.

[fatlever]

If Lin can get 12 mil as a starter, but Hornets offer him only 8 because they is as high as they can go due to salary cap, is that insulting to Lin? Or is that just reality of situation? Nothing more, nothing less.

[yosemiteben]

I'm basing it on how he performed last year on a really big discount. $2 million is nothing for Lin, that's a tiny salary for a player of his caliber. He played hurt, he came in to sub for the best player on the team and did a great job in big games that contributed to ultimately the playoff seed. I think you should reward that with at least a salary offer that says, you really stepped up for us at a discount, and this shows us with acknowledge that. Asking him to again play at a discount after that I do find insulting. It's not complaining, it's a team showing you what they think your worth is with their checkbook.

That just sounds like a lot of whining to me. You got that deal because you wanted to come to our team (and perhaps you really didn't have many other options) and we didn't have cap space. We now have to figure out and pay for our starting rotation, something you knew would have to happen when you signed last summer. If you want to stick around, great. If not, great. We don't have the flexibility to offer you much, so hit the road if you want more. Don't whine at us that we don't have more money to offer.

I'm not asking the Hornets to break the bank. But if they can't go with about $8 million minimum for Lin, then he needs to walk. He shouldn't devalue himself even if he loves the team. And he is worth $8 million overall.

That $8M massively limits our flexibility this offseason. We lose the MLE and the ability to improve a starting position. Should we avoid a game changing starter FA so we can use Lin as a backup and try to shoehorn him as a combo guard in closing situations over someone like MKG or CLee?

If it's all about money, then hit the road and he should have never come. This exact argument would probably have been made by every Lin fan if they heard he was offered the biannual exemption last summer by Charlotte - that's disrespectful, he shouldn't devalue himself, etc.

[bws94]

I think you're being a bit dramatic about this, I don't get this take at all. It's not our fault that we don't have Lin's BR, and it's not out fault that signed with a team that needs to use cap space to firm up our starting rotation. This notion of respect is just wrong IMO. Lin walked into a fairly predictable cap situation when he signed what essentially is a one year deal with a team that had impending FAs at the starting SG, PF, and C positions. It doesn't make sense to me that he would complain when the cap space isn't there to resign him.

I'm basing it on how he performed last year on a really big discount. $2 million is nothing for Lin, that's a tiny salary for a player of his caliber. He played hurt, he came in to sub for the best player on the team and did a great job in big games that contributed to ultimately the playoff seed. I think you should reward that with at least a salary offer that says, you really stepped up for us at a discount, and this shows us with acknowledge that. Asking him to again play at a discount after that I do find insulting. It's not complaining, it's a team showing you what they think your worth is with their checkbook.

I'm not asking the Hornets to break the bank. But if they can't go with about $8 million minimum for Lin, then he needs to walk. He shouldn't devalue himself even if he loves the team. And he is worth $8 million overall.

OK, but 8 mil is different than 10-12 and 8 mil is still under his market value, which is exactly what I just said in my first post, which you seemed to take offense to.

Sorry, if I came off that way. I love your posts and didn't take offense to anything. I'm more alarmed by so many suggestions that it should be Lin taking the MLE. That doesn't make sense to me, even with the salary cap considerations. I think Lin will take under his market value, just have to be careful how much under you offer him.

[bws94]

I'm basing it on how he performed last year on a really big discount. $2 million is nothing for Lin, that's a tiny salary for a player of his caliber. He played hurt, he came in to sub for the best player on the team and did a great job in big games that contributed to ultimately the playoff seed. I think you should reward that with at least a salary offer that says, you really stepped up for us at a discount, and this shows us with acknowledge that. Asking him to again play at a discount after that I do find insulting. It's not complaining, it's a team showing you what they think your worth is with their checkbook.

That just sounds like a lot of whining to me. You got that deal because you wanted to come to our team (and perhaps you really didn't have many other options) and we didn't have cap space. We now have to figure out and pay for our starting rotation, something you knew would have to happen when you signed last summer. If you want to stick around, great. If not, great. We don't have the flexibility to offer you much, so hit the road if you want more. Don't whine at us that we don't have more money to offer.

I'm not asking the Hornets to break the bank. But if they can't go with about $8 million minimum for Lin, then he needs to walk. He shouldn't devalue himself even if he loves the team. And he is worth $8 million overall.

That $8M massively limits our flexibility this offseason. We lose the MLE and the ability to improve a starting position. Should we avoid a game changing starter FA so we can use Lin as a backup and try to shoehorn him as a combo guard in closing situations over someone like MKG or CLee?

If it's all about money, then hit the road and he should have never come. This exact argument would probably have been made by every Lin fan if they heard he was offered the biannual exemption last summer by Charlotte - that's disrespectful, he shouldn't devalue himself, etc.

Maybe not, but that was his choice. And I think he felt overpaid the previous season. But now he has a history with the team. And now it is up to the FO to show him if they value him.