'15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Quotatious]

Honestly, for me, the only way somebody could knock Curry off the #1 spot, would be as if someone had a regular season close to him, and outplayed him in the postseason by truly epic proportions. It would have to be similar to D-Rob vs Hakeem in 1994 - D-Rob was the best player in the regular season, but he performed very poorly in the playoffs and got knocked out in the first round, while Hakeem had one of the best playoff runs ever, and won a title. This season, nothing like that has happened - I think Westbrook was the closest to Curry after the regular season, and he played better than him in the playoffs, but not to the extent that it would override the RS gap - hell, Westbrook's team blew a 3-1 lead against Curry's team, and Westbrook was playing with another top 5 player (while the guy who is usually Curry's best teammate - Green, vastly underperformed).

Basically it would take a GOAT caliber playoff run from somebody, to knock Steph from #1, for me, and it's not happening.

[eminence]

Personal current list:

Curry
Lebron
Westbrook
Kawhi
Durant

[Quotatious]

This game is going to add a lot to the "Love isn't a superstar" thing.

He hasn't been a superstar since his last season in Minnesota, I thought everybody other than the Cavs players knew that.

[Quotatious]

Personal current list:

Curry
Lebron
Westbrook
Kawhi
Durant

Looks good to me.

Right now, I have:

Curry
LeBron/Westbrook
Kawhi/Durant

Can't decide between LeBron and Westbrook for #2/3 and then between Kawhi and Durant for #4/5, hence I put them on the same tier.

[therealbig3]

Curry dropping to 5th is ok by me. I don't quite agree, but hey, he did miss 6 playoff games. That kind of is a big deal. You take LeBron off the Cavs for 6 playoff games, and they might not have made it past round 1.

I've got Curry at 3rd. LeBron and Green are my top 2, and I don't see that changing.

[HeartBreakKid]

What is Leonard's argument over Paul?

This game is going to add a lot to the "Love isn't a superstar" thing.

He hasn't been a superstar since his last season in Minnesota, I thought everybody other than the Cavs players knew that.

No, it would mean he was never a superstar. It adds to the narrative that he put up empty stats.

[eminence]

Looks good to me.

Right now, I have:

Curry
LeBron/Westbrook
Kawhi/Durant

Can't decide between LeBron and Westbrook for #2/3 and then between Kawhi and Durant for #4/5, hence I put them on the same tier.

Very similar thoughts to mine on who's close to who as well I think Lebron at #2 is a reflection that he still has a chance to show something, where Westbrook is done and my current last image of him isn't real great. Durant is probably the toughest player for me to rate, as he showed so much in those last two series vs SAS/GSW, if he'd had a whole season like that he'd be an easy #2 to Curry, and possibly even #1 given Curry's relative playoff struggles. But he didn't really, he was a clear #2 to Westbrook all year(had him #6 after the RS behind Paul and was debating he and Green for #7 as Green is a more effective #2). And I'm just not sure what to do with that.

Something that I've been trying to do more lately is put more thought into the context surrounding each player and their team. And for me that means for some of these guys on real contenders (GSW/OKC/SAS/CLE) that the opening couple rounds of the playoffs don't really mean much more than the regular season. Curry missing those games vs Houston/Portland had no more real effect on the Warriors season than if he'd missed the first two weeks of the season (outside of lingering fitness issues which I believe have hurt his performance somewhat).

[Quotatious]

No, it would mean he was never a superstar. It adds to the narrative that he put up empty stats.

I strongly disagree. I don't even know how it's questionable whether Love was a superstar in 2013-14 season, or not. He absolutely was. There's A TON of evidence to support this. Dominant numbers (top 3 alongside KD and LBJ), looks pretty good based on +/- stats, and contrary to the popular belief, his defense wasn't bad, it was pretty much average (just about any statistic proves that). So, I don't see a possibility of him putting up "empty" stats. His team was horrible without him (Wolves were 39-38 with Love, 1-4 without him that season, and they went from 40 wins in 2014 to 16 in 2015, after he left). He meets all requirements that constitute a superstar, except for leading his team to the playoffs (but it's not a must - we saw plenty of real superstars who failed to lead their teams to the playoffs - 1963 Wilt, 1976 Kareem, 1988 Barkley, 2005 Garnett, 2005 LeBron, 2015 Westbrook, just a few examples - besides, the Wolves had +3.10 SRS, 7th highest in their conference, and 10th highest in the league - I guess they had the highest SRS in NBA history for a team with a losing record, it's pretty much an anomaly that a team with 3.10 SRS has a losing record - they would've made the playoffs in the East with those 40 wins, as the 8th seed, knocking the Hawks out of the playoffs, and they had some injury problems to key players - Pekovic, who averaged almost 18/9 on 58% TS, their starting center, played only 54 games, and Kevin Martin, a very efficient scorer and the second scoring option after Love, played 68).

The fact that Love hasn't looked like a superstar as a Cavalier, is irrelevant as far as him being or not being a superstar in Minnesota, because he went from being the unquestioned 1st option in Minnesota, to the third option after two ball-dominant perimeter players, in Cleveland. His game just isn't well-suited for a third option, this is why he's unable to make the same kind of impact as he did in Minnesota, where it was "his" team.

[Doctor MJ]

GOAT offense again?

I'm hesitant to jump in further because I don't really want to "defend" anything right now, but I'll just say that if they turn it on again and win the series, I doubt I'm going to be all that bothered by things like Game 3.

[JordansBulls]

Spoiler:

I called this win in the LeBron thread when Love was doubtful. Love didn't play, was replaced a guy who barely sees playing time anymore, and they win this game handily.

Anyway, I am not overly concerned for GSW. At some point, Steph and Klay will hit their shots, as they have done all season. I would just like to see a good entertaining series rather than a short one, however.

Nothing entertaining about 3 blowouts man. I'd rather see a contested sweep like OKC vs Dallas in 2012.



Mid Finals update to my top 5:

1. Russell Westbrook


Was writing up why Lebron was the easy choice at number one when I realized I couldn't explain why he was over Westbrook. Westbrook had the better regular season, better first round, better second round (I mean look at who he played), and vs Golden State he averaged 27/7/11/4 on 51 TS% with a 14 TOV% (Lebron is averaging 25/10/8 on 53 TS% with a 19 TOV%). OKC played 2 of the GOAT teams in the playoffs and they won one series while taking the other to 7. Gotta give it to him.

2. Lebron James


Easy choice. He's been underwhelming in the Finals and I had him first before seeing him play worse than Westbrook vs Golden State. Last game was very good but he basically just played D and held the lead after Kyrie got them the lead in the first. Hell his 2nd quarter performance even let them back in the game. Not bashing what's a good game but he wasn't as good as his boxscore would indicate. Still he's good enough for the 2nd spot here so he's doing something well.

3. Kawhi Leonard


Best regular season defensive player and slightly best offensive player on a top 5 offense. He was 4th in my initial rankings and he maintained his standing here (someone else who's pretty obvious at this point dropped). His performance vs OKC was highly criticized but he was good for half the series (literally 3 out of 6 games) and he averaged 23/7/4 on 55 TS% while being the 2nd best player on the team. Not amazing but very good and good enough to be top 3.

4. Kevin Durant


His regular season was around 5th to me and his postseason performance was below what is expected from him but Draymond played so bad against his defense he robbed what should've been his spot. Sometimes you forget just how toolsy KD is but his domination of Draymond defensively made us remember. He also showed up well against San Antonio so even though his performance against Dallas was painful I had to pick him.

5. Stephen Curry


His GOAT regular season isn't taken lightly enough to drop him out completely but his postseason has been nothing short of a disaster. To start even when he's played he's been the 4th best playoff performer if I'm generous, there's no individual series where he was the best player on the floor (thanks to his injury in rounds 1 and 2 and his performance in round 3 and the Finals), and he missed 6 games (he could've missed the first 2 against Cleveland too because he wasn't tipping the scales at all or even really impacting the game much). On top of that he's coming off a game where he was the worst player on his team and Cleveland seemed to make it an offensive priority to attack his defense. I'm big on the postseason so the injury dropped him to 3rd but his performance in the Finals has been anything but worthy. And the worst part of it all is that he's not even shooting badly. He has a 59 TS% in the Finals so far - he's just being super passive (and while I could let him slide for that when they were winning he can't get a pass when he has 2 pts, 4 tovs, and is down nearly 20 at half because he wants to make Vine clips by over dribbling instead of shooting)

Curry 5th?! Below Kawhi Leonard?! Give me a break, man. Wouldn't expect that coming from such a good poster as you usually are. Can't take that seriously.

Curry is averaging 24/6/6 on 61% TS in the playoffs. You know how many players averaged at least 24 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.5 apg for at least a 14-game playoff run? It happened 32 times, it's been done by 14 players - Rick Barry (once), Larry Bird (five times), Kobe Bryant (twice), Stephen Curry (this year so far), Clyde Drexler (once), Walt Frazier (once), Blake Griffin (once), James Harden (once), John Havlicek (three times), LeBron James (six times), Michael Jordan (five times), Dwyane Wade (twice), Jerry West (once), Russell Westbrook (twice).

If we add another criterion - 61% TS or more, there are only four such seasons - 1986 Bird, 2009 LeBron, 2015 Harden and 2016 Curry.

I'll take that "disaster" from my star player, any day of the week.

Also, even just implying that any Warrior other than Green and Thompson comes close to Curry in the playoffs, is ridiculous. Iguodala is a nice player, but I would never put a role player like him anywhere near a star like Curry, no matter how much worse Curry plays relative to his RS standards, or how much better Iguodala plays relative to his RS standards. Their standards are just so light years apart that Curry is still clearly better even as he's struggling a bit.

Obviously I also think that Curry has been disappointing in the playoffs so far, but that's mostly because his regular season standards were so absurdly high (and also the fact that he missed 6 playoff games due to injuries, is sort of an extenuation).

Not to mention how does a guy who was unanimous mvp fall that low? I mean Kareem in 1976 didn't even make the playoffs nor KG in 2005 but these guys still managed to be top 2 voting, so why would Curry even fall that low and he is actually playing in the playoffs?

[PaulieWal]

The fact that Love hasn't looked like a superstar as a Cavalier, is irrelevant as far as him being or not being a superstar in Minnesota, because he went from being the unquestioned 1st option in Minnesota, to the third option after two ball-dominant perimeter players, in Cleveland. His game just isn't well-suited for a third option, this is why he's unable to make the same kind of impact as he did in Minnesota, where it was "his" team.

I pretty much agree and I said this a while ago during the RS more than the going from 1st option to 3rd option thing I feel that the game has passed Love by in many ways. It may seem harsh but these days your 4 HAS to be pretty much able to slide to the 5 spot to play in small lineups which are a necessity in this era of the NBA. Love can't play the 5 without it making a lay-up line and the Cavs' perimeter D is porous as it is. The other thing is the big in today's league being able to guard on the perimeter which is another thing Love can't do.

All it shows to me that Love can't be your 1st option on a title team or a 3rd option. If you wanna use him he's gotta be your 2nd option so you can get the most out of him offensively. Even as your 2nd option he's just not gonna be able to stay on the floor in certain match-ups against elite teams unless you have 4 other elite defenders on your team to cover up for him.

[PaulieWal]

Right now I am leaning towards Bron, KD/Russ, Curry and then Leonard I think. Curry is still the wild card for me. Not sure where to place him.

[Doctor MJ]

What is Leonard's argument over Paul?

Well I mean, Kawhi placed higher in MVP voting than Paul and then Paul went out with injury before accomplishing anything in the playoffs. Not saying you have to agree with MVP voters assessment, but I'm sure you understand their thought process.

Maybe you'd care to rebut it?

This game is going to add a lot to the "Love isn't a superstar" thing.

He hasn't been a superstar since his last season in Minnesota, I thought everybody other than the Cavs players knew that.

No, it would mean he was never a superstar. It adds to the narrative that he put up empty stats.

It adds to that narrative, but that narrative was always simple-minded. We've learned some not-good stuff about Love in Cleveland, and it should have a major impact on how we see him, but it doesn't mean that he wasn't having impact in Minnesota.

[bondom34]

GOAT offense again?

I'm hesitant to jump in further because I don't really want to "defend" anything right now, but I'll just say that if they turn it on again and win the series, I doubt I'm going to be all that bothered by things like Game 3.

Just messing around .

[Quotatious]

Right now I am leaning towards Bron, KD/Russ, Curry and then Leonard I think. Curry is still the wild card for me. Not sure where to place him.

I don't know how you can justify both Westbrook and Durant over Curry. I mean - Steph was better in the regular season by a sizeable margin (especially compared to Durant), and I wouldn't say either one of them outplayed him by a significant margin in the GSW/OKC series. With Green playing as poorly as he actually did, Curry deserves credit for leading his team to win that series.

As far as the OKC superstars - I think Westbrook was clearly better this year. I know bondom agrees.

[PaulieWal]

Right now I am leaning towards Bron, KD/Russ, Curry and then Leonard I think. Curry is still the wild card for me. Not sure where to place him.

I don't know how you can justify both Westbrook and Durant over Curry. I mean - Steph was better in the regular season by a sizeable margin (especially compared to Durant), and I wouldn't say either one of them outplayed him by a significant margin in the GSW/OKC series. With Green playing as poorly as he actually did, Curry deserves credit for leading his team to win that series.

As far as the OKC superstars - I think Westbrook was clearly better this year. I know bondom agrees.

As I said the missed games matter more to me than others. I know how you feel about Curry but I just can't have him #1 with an injury in the PS, not to mention he's being very inconsistent game to game.

I am not sure about KD/Russ yet. I was kinda very impressed with KD's defense in the GSW series and also kinda disappointed with Russ not being that good defensively. That being said having them as the 2nd/3rd best player in the league is not egregious I hope .

Curry could move back up to the 2 spot if he consistently shows up for the remaining Finals' games.

[Doctor MJ]

His GOAT regular season isn't taken lightly enough to drop him out completely but his postseason has been nothing short of a disaster. To start even when he's played he's been the 4th best playoff performer if I'm generous, there's no individual series where he was the best player on the floor (thanks to his injury in rounds 1 and 2 and his performance in round 3 and the Finals), and he missed 6 games (he could've missed the first 2 against Cleveland too because he wasn't tipping the scales at all or even really impacting the game much). On top of that he's coming off a game where he was the worst player on his team and Cleveland seemed to make it an offensive priority to attack his defense. I'm big on the postseason so the injury dropped him to 3rd but his performance in the Finals has been anything but worthy. And the worst part of it all is that he's not even shooting badly. He has a 59 TS% in the Finals so far - he's just being super passive (and while I could let him slide for that when they were winning he can't get a pass when he has 2 pts, 4 tovs, and is down nearly 20 at half because he wants to make Vine clips by over dribbling instead of shooting).

Wow, I think this really underestimates what he did in the OKC series.

You're talking about a guy who scored 27.9 PPG in that series with TS% north of 60 while literally no one else on either team scored above 15 PPG while shooting north of 55% TS despite the fact that the series consisted of two guys known for volume scoring and Curry's now deified scoring teammate. He did this while becoming WAY bigger when his team was actually against the wall going for 31/10/9 in game 6 and then racking up 36 points in the deciding game 7 as his team destroyed the opponent down the stretch both games.

There's more to the game than scoring of course, but you yourself are focused on his scoring, and somehow you interpreted a series where to me he was by far the best scorer as being something far from that.

I also think that that totally changes perspective on Curry's series as a whole right now. So far, we've got a guy who was injured through the first two rounds, was quite good against OKC, and who is only part way through a final series where all but one game has been a blowout in his team's favor. Injuries are to be held against him how each of us sees fit of course, but in terms of Curry being remotely exposed by these playoffs, I don't see it.

I think when you talk about passivity, you're expressing something a lot of people feel based on their expectations for how scoring superstars work, but it's not how Curry and the Warriors work. They very clearly have 2 modes. One in which they use a flow offense that is more than happy to exploit the gravity caused by Curry & Klay to let other players score, and another where Curry and/or Klay is looking to just shoot the ball whenever they have the slightest window. The former technique is one that requires considerably less energy from the Splash Brothers and is considerably more important to the Warriors maintaining their confident, loose Pete Carroll-esque vibe that has let the team look so good deep into the bench.

I'm by no means saying it's a given that Curry is better than Player X, whoever that person is people feel like comparing him to, but in terms of Curry being "nothing short of a disaster" so far this playoffs, I find that pretty absurd.

[JordansBulls]

Right now I am leaning towards Bron, KD/Russ, Curry and then Leonard I think. Curry is still the wild card for me. Not sure where to place him.

I don't know how you can justify both Westbrook and Durant over Curry. I mean - Steph was better in the regular season by a sizeable margin (especially compared to Durant), and I wouldn't say either one of them outplayed him by a significant margin in the GSW/OKC series. With Green playing as poorly as he actually did, Curry deserves credit for leading his team to win that series.

As far as the OKC superstars - I think Westbrook was clearly better this year. I know bondom agrees.

As I said the missed games matter more to me than others. I know how you feel about Curry but I just can't have him #1 with an injury in the PS, not to mention he's being very inconsistent game to game.

I am not sure about KD/Russ yet. I was kinda very impressed with KD's defense in the GSW series and also kinda disappointed with Russ not being that good defensively. That being said having them as the 2nd/3rd best player in the league is not egregious I hope .

Curry could move back up to the 2 spot if he consistently shows up for the remaining Finals' games.

Well Curry and Lebron both have played the same amount of games total 103 in the season and playoffs. So not sure what would make Curry not qualify for the top spot.

[PaulieWal]

I don't know how you can justify both Westbrook and Durant over Curry. I mean - Steph was better in the regular season by a sizeable margin (especially compared to Durant), and I wouldn't say either one of them outplayed him by a significant margin in the GSW/OKC series. With Green playing as poorly as he actually did, Curry deserves credit for leading his team to win that series.

As far as the OKC superstars - I think Westbrook was clearly better this year. I know bondom agrees.

As I said the missed games matter more to me than others. I know how you feel about Curry but I just can't have him #1 with an injury in the PS, not to mention he's being very inconsistent game to game.

I am not sure about KD/Russ yet. I was kinda very impressed with KD's defense in the GSW series and also kinda disappointed with Russ not being that good defensively. That being said having them as the 2nd/3rd best player in the league is not egregious I hope .

Curry could move back up to the 2 spot if he consistently shows up for the remaining Finals' games.

Well Curry and Lebron both have played the same amount of games total 103 in the season and playoffs. So not sure what would make Curry not qualify for the top spot.

Your attempts at downplaying LeBron at this point are beyond laughable.

Curry missed games in the PS = 6
LeBron = 0

For you it seems like it's not a big deal. For some of us it is.

If you wanna make legit arguments for Curry like Q or others are doing, then do so. Don't pull your typical "JB arguments" like never won with a franchise or some other bizarre qualifier which has 0 to do with basketball play on the court.

[colts18]

LeBron took a franchise to the finals that has never been in the finals all while leading the league in PER and WS.