The Lebron Thread (2015-16 Pt. 3)

[JulesWinnfield]

The crowd was really insane last night. There were so many times where you couldn't even hear the whistle, even the broadcasters. Mike Breen even got caught up a couple times announcing action after the whistle blew because he didn't hear it, and he's not exactly at the Marv Albert stage of his career where those mistakes are so common (Marv does that 500x a game these days).

The Warriors brutal road play of late gives me a ton of confidence (perhaps irrationally) that Cleveland can certainly take all 3 of these home games. Actually i will take it one step further.... I think they probably will. OKC came within minutes of doing it. They just have to break through at Oracle.

[G35]

Check out his exchange with G35 from earlier a few pages back.

Well JR and Kyrie were good players before ever playing with Lebron. JR was Melo's number 2 guy and Kyrie all star game mvp

Exactly. Which is why it's not LeBron's responsibility to shoulder the blame when they play like crap.

I agree, but then when they play great, it's not all because of Lebron either.

I didn't agree with this mentality with Steve Nash getting all the credit for the Suns offense when he had Amare/Joe Johnson/Marion but Nash got all the credit, but when they didn't play well in the playoffs those guys got all the blame.

Can't have it both ways. When you have talented players make it work...no excuses.......

[Sedale Threatt]

Well JR and Kyrie were good players before ever playing with Lebron. JR was Melo's number 2 guy and Kyrie all star game mvp

Exactly. Which is why it's not LeBron's responsibility to shoulder the blame when they play like crap.

I agree, but then when they play great, it's not all because of Lebron either.

I didn't agree with this mentality with Steve Nash getting all the credit for the Suns offense when he had Amare/Joe Johnson/Marion but Nash got all the credit, but when they didn't play well in the playoffs those guys got all the blame.

Can't have it both ways. When you have talented players make it work...no excuses.......

You didn't seem to agree the other day, when you heaped blame on LeBron for not making his teammates better when they failed to do their jobs.

And I absolutely didn't say Irving's and Smith's performances were down to LeBron. (Not seriously, at least.) Basketball quite frequently comes down to the simple act of making shots. Kyrie and Smith made shots, and that's credit to them. It takes a team. Everybody has to do their job to succeed at this level.

Last night was a textbook example why the whole notion of "making teammate better" can be -- not always, but can be and in my book usually is -- stupid. LeBron was great, of course, at least in the second half. That makes a huge difference over merely OK. But Irving, Smith and Thompson also show up, they don't have Love to worry about defensively, and they whip Golden State's ass. Funny how that works.

And on Steve Nash, I don't think most reasonable observers would give him ALL the credit. A good sum -- 40%? 50%? 60%? -- for sure, because he was the quarterback, the proverbial straw that stirred the drink. But otherwise that's a red herring. Most of the really good posters that I've seen posting here over the years would never give Nash ALL of the credit. I wouldn't either.

Nash not only played with some awesome players, but also a coach who saw the game in a different way and pretty much gave him free reign.

[MisterHibachi]

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/6/9/11893824/lebron-james-draymond-green-nba-finals-2016-warriors-cavaliers-game-3

[PaulieWal]

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/6/9/11893824/lebron-james-draymond-green-nba-finals-2016-warriors-cavaliers-game-3

If LeBron continues to guard Green well and can hit his jumper we just might have a real series on our hands. I'll wait until Game 4 though to see what happens.

[RSCD3_]

Did the Per 48 minutes plus minus for the 6 players from both teams
Updated through 4 games. For the cavs...cant risk an autodelete

Warriors

Draymond Green
110 minutes On: +9.2
34 minutes Off: -4.2
On/Off: +13.4

Harrison Barnes
98 Minutes On: -2.4
46 Minutes Off: +24.0
On/Off: -26.4

Iguodala
93 Minutes On: +19.7
51 Minutes Off: -18.7
On/Off: +38.4

Curry
92 Minutes On: +1.6
52 Minutes Off: +13.7
On/Off: -12.1

Thompson
87 Minutes On: +1.7
57 Minutes Off: +12.5
On/Off: -10.8

Livingston
70 Minutes On: +21.1
72 Minutes Off: -8.5
On/Off: +29.6

Cavs

James
160 Minutes On: -5.0
32 Minutes Off: -13.6
On/Off: +8.6

Smith
151 Minutes On: -3.8
41 Minutes Off: -19.9
On/Off: +16.1

Irving
151 Minutes On: -7.0
41 Minutes Off: -4.6
On/Off: -2.4

Thompson
110 Minutes On: -2.2
82 Minutes Off: -14.0
On/Off: +11.8

Jefferson
97 Minutes On: -9.0
95 Minutes Off: -5.0
On/Off: -4.0

Love
83 Minutes On: -11.6
109 Minutes Off: -4.0
On/Off: -7.6

[G35]

Exactly. Which is why it's not LeBron's responsibility to shoulder the blame when they play like crap.

I agree, but then when they play great, it's not all because of Lebron either.

I didn't agree with this mentality with Steve Nash getting all the credit for the Suns offense when he had Amare/Joe Johnson/Marion but Nash got all the credit, but when they didn't play well in the playoffs those guys got all the blame.

Can't have it both ways. When you have talented players make it work...no excuses.......

You didn't seem to agree the other day, when you heaped blame on LeBron for not making his teammates better when they failed to do their jobs.

And I absolutely didn't say Irving's and Smith's performances were down to LeBron. (Not seriously, at least.) Basketball quite frequently comes down to the simple act of making shots. Kyrie and Smith made shots, and that's credit to them. It takes a team. Everybody has to do their job to succeed at this level.

Last night was a textbook example why the whole notion of "making teammate better" can be -- not always, but can be and in my book usually is -- stupid. LeBron was great, of course, at least in the second half. That makes a huge difference over merely OK. But Irving, Smith and Thompson also show up, they don't have Love to worry about defensively, and they whip Golden State's ass. Funny how that works.

And on Steve Nash, I don't think most reasonable observers would give him ALL the credit. A good sum -- 40%? 50%? 60%? -- for sure, because he was the quarterback, the proverbial straw that stirred the drink. But otherwise that's a red herring. Most of the really good posters that I've seen posting here over the years would never give Nash ALL of the credit. I wouldn't either.

Nash not only played with some awesome players, but also a coach who saw the game in a different way and pretty much gave him free reign.

I don't blame Lebron for not making any player "better". If I was on the Cavaliers, Lebron is not going to make my jumpshot better, he is not going to make handles better, or my defense better.

My contention are for those who say that Lebron is a better team player/playmaker and makes his teammates better. There is a contingent of folks who think "just add Lebron to a team" like Kool-Aid mix and the team will automatically become better. I disagree, I think Lebron has a problem fitting his talents alongside other elite talents e.g. Bosh/Wade/Kyrie/Love. Lebron is great when the offense is built entirely around him and he gets to run everything ie the Cavs from 2005-2010.

This issue is when those average teams have to play better teams in the playoffs, the lack of talent becomes an issue. Well it was not a problem during the RS when you are winning 50 and 60 games but when that same talent does not succeed in the playoffs, its "Lebron does not have enough help". Can't have it both ways. Furthermore, in the latter half of Lebron's career he has gone to talented teams, lets make no mistake about it, since 2011 Lebron has made sure his teams are on the elite side. Now, the issue is he still wants the teams built around him like when he plays with average talent. So then, players like Bosh/Love who do not handle the ball get marginalized and get stuck watching Lebron ball. Don't complain about these players not playing up to expectations when they are not put in positions to succeed.

Same thing with Kyrie/Wade, when they are on and popping everyone loves Kyrie/Wade. For example, last night Kyrie played very well. Was that due to Lebron. Nope, Kyrie played well because Kyrie played well. He did the same thing he always does by creating his own shot and being a shot maker. Lebron did not feed him looks, or drag the defense away from Kyrie. In fact, I would say Kyrie helped Lebron because that first half, particularly the 1st quarter when the Cavs sprinted away, that was all Kyrie. Yet, if G4 comes along and Kyrie doesn't play well then people are going to put all the blame on the "others" as if Lebron is doing everything perfect.

What Lebron did well yesterday is play PF. Period. It made the Cavs more versatile and create mismatches. But Lebron did not want to play PF two year ago. That is why they acquired Love. That is not Kevin's fault that is Lebron's fault for not doing what is best for the team. Right now everyone is saying Kevin should do what is best for the team and come off the bench, but if Lebron had decided to do what is best for the team he would have already transitioned to PF, if not last year, clearly this year. I have already been on the side that Lebron has lost his ability to get to the rim at will, but he still has advantages playing the PF spot. Not by backing down to the post with the ball, but by setting up in various areas and moving to the post area. Set up on the weak side and come across the lane to the strong side and receive the ball. Tim Duncan has been doing this for years in order to mix up defenses.

What I am saying, is Lebron has this super pass where he makes everybody better, unless they have a bad game, and then the blame is all on that individual player(s). Yet, the offense is designed around Lebron, so if he is failing everyone else is going to fail to. That is why the Cavs offense struggled so much is that Lebron could not beat his matchup and he was turning the ball over and shooting bad shots that allowed the Warriors to get out in transition. So really, it is a reciprocal situation, Love/Kyrie/JR/whoever's success is dependent on how well Lebron plays, but in turn Lebron's success depends on how well everyone plays. That's called teamwork. Not, "I got mines".

What I don't agree with is putting the blame on why the Cavs lose on Lebron's teammates. They are talented, they have shown it. If the Cavs lose or win its as a team, not putting the blame on one or the other. It use to irritate me when the Lakers lost and Kobe got all the blame. That is part of being the star of the team but in reality your star can only do so much. It is a team effort and if you want to win at the highest level you have to blend your talents in with your teammates. That is GOAT worthy, not individual production......

[colts18]

Kyrie is not "talented". He was a loser before LeBron and always be one. He is not a player conducive to winning.

[Colbinii]

My contention are for those who say that Lebron is a better team player/playmaker and makes his teammates better. There is a contingent of folks who think "just add Lebron to a team" like Kool-Aid mix and the team will automatically become better. I disagree, I think Lebron has a problem fitting his talents alongside other elite talents e.g. Bosh/Wade/Kyrie/Love. Lebron is great when the offense is built entirely around him and he gets to run everything ie the Cavs from 2005-2010.

Can you name any players who would play next to Love/Kyrie and have better results than what this Cavaliers team has had the past 2 seasons? Is there a player that, if replacing LeBron, would have this Cav's team playing at a higher level than they have been over the past 2 seasons? I think the list is a very, very short list or non-existent personally.

[BasketballFan7]

Kyrie is not "talented". He was a loser before LeBron and always be one. He is not a player conducive to winning.

He is talented, he is a losing player though. He is a talented non-contributor most of the time. Even last night he drove me crazy.

[HeartBreakKid]

Wade and Irving both play along well with James, and eventually so did Bosh - so I don't really get the criticism.

Irving literally gets to play his game....only difference is he doesn't get double teamed, so I'm really floored by how James somehow suppresses Irving.

[MisterHibachi]

As if he hadn't been daydreaming about these moments -- sitting next to James basking in success after a huge Finals win -- for years.

"I feel like my story would've been different had I had a chance to play with Bron when I was 18," Smith said. "I've thought about it countless times."

Twelve years ago this week Smith was in this same building, then called Gund Arena, when he first thought of playing with James. The draft was a couple weeks away and he was in town to work out for the Cavs as they considered who to draft with the 10th overall pick. Coming out of high school, he thought he was the type of dynamic scorer who could play and grow next to James.

He thought the workout went great. He had good conversations with then-coach Paul Silas. He started to get used to the idea of playing in Cleveland. But when draft night came the Cavs took a four-year college player, Luke Jackson from Oregon, because they didn't think it was wise to have two teenagers on their roster.

"I'm not upset about my career, I'm just upset about how my name has been portrayed," Smith said. "A lot of guys have played with Bron and had success. There's nothing I can do about it. I've tried to change my image a million times."

...

"She didn't even know what she did," Smith said. "I always talked about playing good defense but I never did it. It always turned into if I played well on offense, I felt I did a good job. This year I decided I was going to let how I played defense dictate how I played.

"So I started watching film of defensive players like Tony Allen. I've watched a lot of film of Kobe [Bryant] when he was younger to watch what he did with his hands, like how he'd swipe up not swipe down. Would I have ever done that before this season? Absolutely not. I'd go on YouTube and watch [Allen] Iverson, [Michael] Jordan, Kobe; all highlights.

"Before this year, if you caught me in the summer and asked me questions like what are you going to do on pick-the-picker or backside rotations, I'd have been like, um, what?"

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2016/story/_/id/16068879/nba-playoffs-2016-why-jr-smith-changed

[mrmsix6]

Kyrie is not "talented". He was a loser before LeBron and always be one. He is not a player conducive to winning.

It's amazing any NBA team would want him at all.

[jaypo]

Actually, the thing I see the most is that everything is Lebron's fault when things go badly, but if he has success, it's because "he hand picked his SUPERTEAM". Which is a load of BS. Case and point- how did the Cavs do the year after he went to Miami??

[tsherkin]

Kyrie is not "talented".

This is obviously wrong. He's quick, he's got maybe the best handle in the whole league and he's got a jumper. He's talented and skilled. What he lacks is intelligent shot selection and feel for the game, plus he isn't a stunning playmaker. It is highly inaccurate to indict him on lack of TALENT, however. Injured, he had the worst 3pt shooting regular season of his career this year.

He was a loser before LeBron and always be one. He is not a player conducive to winning.

There's a very big difference between "can't support a winning team as the primary offensive player" and "is not talented."

[yoyoboy]

The crowd was really insane last night. There were so many times where you couldn't even hear the whistle, even the broadcasters. Mike Breen even got caught up a couple times announcing action after the whistle blew because he didn't hear it, and he's not exactly at the Marv Albert stage of his career where those mistakes are so common (Marv does that 500x a game these days).

The Warriors brutal road play of late gives me a ton of confidence (perhaps irrationally) that Cleveland can certainly take all 3 of these home games. Actually i will take it one step further.... I think they probably will. OKC came within minutes of doing it. They just have to break through at Oracle.

Yeah the Q was rocking for sure. Just goes to show you the degree to which the Cavs fanbase can't stand the Warriors and how badly they want to beat them. (And I know the Warriors and their fans feel the same way). If the Cavs somehow found a way to win these next 2, Game 6 in Cleveland would really be something to see...

Aside from the obvious: winning a title, I really want the Cavs to win this year because it would set the stage for an awesome rivalry going forward between Cleveland and Golden State. If the Warriors win yet again, you can't really call it much of a rivalry with it being so one sided.

Finally, I'm really hoping LeBron's jumpshot from the second half last night makes a few more appearances in this series. When he's hitting those, the spacing in the offense gets so much better and the team as a whole becomes that much more deadly.

[G35]

My contention are for those who say that Lebron is a better team player/playmaker and makes his teammates better. There is a contingent of folks who think "just add Lebron to a team" like Kool-Aid mix and the team will automatically become better. I disagree, I think Lebron has a problem fitting his talents alongside other elite talents e.g. Bosh/Wade/Kyrie/Love. Lebron is great when the offense is built entirely around him and he gets to run everything ie the Cavs from 2005-2010.

Can you name any players who would play next to Love/Kyrie and have better results than what this Cavaliers team has had the past 2 seasons? Is there a player that, if replacing LeBron, would have this Cav's team playing at a higher level than they have been over the past 2 seasons? I think the list is a very, very short list or non-existent personally.

What do you mean by better results? Do you mean being the Eastern conference representative in the finals with Lebron being out West? I can think of several players.

If you build a team around Kyrie/Love that is different team altogether. For example put Kevin Durant on this Cavs team:

PG Kyrie
SG JR
SF Durant
PF Love
C Mozgov (or it could have been someone else since this was a reaction trade from last year)

That team wins at least 57 games in the East and would be the favorites. Also, if Durant can play with WB, I am sure he can play with Kyrie. Then with Durant's more reliable shooting ability, that gives Love or Mozgov space to post up.

It is not impossible to make a good team without Lebron, this is exactly what I mean by Lebron getting all the credit for his team's success and then Lebron fans putting all the blame on the others. Shoot, I think if you put Paul George, Kawhi on that team they could win 55+ games and that is knocking on the door for the #1 seed. What if this team put KAT at center, I think it would be a contender in the East. What about Cousins teaming up with Love and Kyrie, this is not a team bereft of talent......

[BasketballFan7]

My contention are for those who say that Lebron is a better team player/playmaker and makes his teammates better. There is a contingent of folks who think "just add Lebron to a team" like Kool-Aid mix and the team will automatically become better. I disagree, I think Lebron has a problem fitting his talents alongside other elite talents e.g. Bosh/Wade/Kyrie/Love. Lebron is great when the offense is built entirely around him and he gets to run everything ie the Cavs from 2005-2010.

Can you name any players who would play next to Love/Kyrie and have better results than what this Cavaliers team has had the past 2 seasons? Is there a player that, if replacing LeBron, would have this Cav's team playing at a higher level than they have been over the past 2 seasons? I think the list is a very, very short list or non-existent personally.

What do you mean by better results? Do you mean being the Eastern conference representative in the finals with Lebron being out West? I can think of several players.

If you build a team around Kyrie/Love that is different team altogether. For example put Kevin Durant on this Cavs team:

PG Kyrie
SG JR
SF Durant
PF Love
C Mozgov (or it could have been someone else since this was a reaction trade from last year)

That team wins at least 57 games in the East and would be the favorites. Also, if Durant can play with WB, I am sure he can play with Kyrie. Then with Durant's more reliable shooting ability, that gives Love or Mozgov space to post up.

It is not impossible to make a good team without Lebron, this is exactly what I mean by Lebron getting all the credit for his team's success and then Lebron fans putting all the blame on the others. Shoot, I think if you put Paul George, Kawhi on that team they could win 55+ games and that is knocking on the door for the #1 seed. What if this team put KAT at center, I think it would be a contender in the East. What about Cousins teaming up with Love and Kyrie, this is not a team bereft of talent......

Irving =/= Westbrook and a team with him as the primary ball handler is not winning that number of games nor being the title favorite. Also, not sure why you mentioned Mozgov, as he has been terrible post injury. Lastly, Durant was wildly inconsistent these playoffs with a superior playmaker alongside him in Westbrook.

But the main issue I have with your stance is how high you apparently are on Kyrie.

[PaulieWal]

My contention are for those who say that Lebron is a better team player/playmaker and makes his teammates better. There is a contingent of folks who think "just add Lebron to a team" like Kool-Aid mix and the team will automatically become better. I disagree, I think Lebron has a problem fitting his talents alongside other elite talents e.g. Bosh/Wade/Kyrie/Love. Lebron is great when the offense is built entirely around him and he gets to run everything ie the Cavs from 2005-2010.

Can you name any players who would play next to Love/Kyrie and have better results than what this Cavaliers team has had the past 2 seasons? Is there a player that, if replacing LeBron, would have this Cav's team playing at a higher level than they have been over the past 2 seasons? I think the list is a very, very short list or non-existent personally.

What do you mean by better results? Do you mean being the Eastern conference representative in the finals with Lebron being out West? I can think of several players.

If you build a team around Kyrie/Love that is different team altogether. For example put Kevin Durant on this Cavs team:

PG Kyrie
SG JR
SF Durant
PF Love
C Mozgov (or it could have been someone else since this was a reaction trade from last year)

That team wins at least 57 games in the East and would be the favorites. Also, if Durant can play with WB, I am sure he can play with Kyrie. Then with Durant's more reliable shooting ability, that gives Love or Mozgov space to post up.

It is not impossible to make a good team without Lebron, this is exactly what I mean by Lebron getting all the credit for his team's success and then Lebron fans putting all the blame on the others. Shoot, I think if you put Paul George, Kawhi on that team they could win 55+ games and that is knocking on the door for the #1 seed. What if this team put KAT at center, I think it would be a contender in the East. What about Cousins teaming up with Love and Kyrie, this is not a team bereft of talent......

Uh...who exactly on your team is the primary playmaker? Surely it's not tunnel vision Kyrie or I can't dribble anymore KD.

[MisterHibachi]

LeBron's not letting Mozgov post up! It's not hard to build a winning team without LeBron, all you have to do is let Mozgov post up!

Are you for real.