Moderators: BigSlam, yosemiteben, fatlever, JDR720, Diop
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https://twitter.com/penny10654/status/740975198493515777
fatlever wrote:bws94 wrote:That's our disagreement. In fact, I don't find Lee that valuable, he was a nice addition but he overall didn't have the impact Lin had IMO. Marvin had a big impact and I think he should be payed well. In the playoffs, Lin was most valuable. Team doesn't win game 3 and 4 without Lin. Lin played a huge role in getting Cliff his first playoff win. Lin didn't do it by himself, but played a key role.
I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but the same logic can be applied to Lee. We don't win some of those games without those massive offensive rebounds from Lee or that huge 3pter he made at the end of the game or his defense on Wade the entire series.
I'd also point to our overall record after we traded for Lee. (edit: 23-12 including playoffs)
That being said, I'd still lean Lin over Lee purely because I think MKG take away most of the role Lee played for us. Paying Lee 10+(?) mil to be the backup SG is also not the best idea, but at least we dont have to use cap room to make it happen.
bws94 wrote: It didn't matter that he was coming off the bench, he was playing major minutes anyway in Batum's absence......But really, the playoffs went how Kemba and Lin went for the most part.
bws94 wrote:fatlever wrote:bws94 wrote:That's our disagreement. In fact, I don't find Lee that valuable, he was a nice addition but he overall didn't have the impact Lin had IMO. Marvin had a big impact and I think he should be payed well. In the playoffs, Lin was most valuable. Team doesn't win game 3 and 4 without Lin. Lin played a huge role in getting Cliff his first playoff win. Lin didn't do it by himself, but played a key role.
I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but the same logic can be applied to Lee. We don't win some of those games without those massive offensive rebounds from Lee or that huge 3pter he made at the end of the game or his defense on Wade the entire series.
I'd also point to our overall record after we traded for Lee. (edit: 23-12 including playoffs)
That being said, I'd still lean Lin over Lee purely because I think MKG take away most of the role Lee played for us. Paying Lee 10+(?) mil to be the backup SG is also not the best idea, but at least we dont have to use cap room to make it happen.
Not quite the same logic, though. In the playoffs, Lin was one of the Hornets best players. Lin was a consistent concern in that having the 3 taken away, he along with Kemba could get inside, score, get fouled, draw defenses and dish, and that's what had us win the critical games 3 and 4. That's why I put Lin's value so high in the playoffs, and why guys like Kenny Smith, Isiah Thomas and others were talking about how important Lin was in the playoffs for the Hornets. It didn't matter that he was coming off the bench, he was playing major minutes anyway in Batum's absence. Lee was valuable in that he did a solid job on Wade. Wade still beat us in game 6, but, Lee did as good a job as I've seen a lot of guys do on the future HOF player Wade.
But really, the playoffs went how Kemba and Lin went for the most part.
Mystical Apples wrote:bws94 wrote: It didn't matter that he was coming off the bench, he was playing major minutes anyway in Batum's absence......But really, the playoffs went how Kemba and Lin went for the most part.
You're memory is a little hazy. The last 5 games Lin's minutes barely budged above his season average even though Batum was injured, MKG out, Lamb out of the rotation, and Kemba hobbled. 3 or 4 ripe sources to seize perimeter minutes disproportionately went elsewhere.
If there was ever a light bulb moment.....
Minutes Last 5 Playoff Games (regular season differential)
Kemba: 37.4 (+1.8)
Courtney: 36.4 (+6.8)
Marvin: 34.6 (+5.7)
Frank: 30.7 (+9.6)
Jeremy: 27.5 (+1.2)
Minutes Last 2 Games with Everyone Limping or Bashed in the Head
Kemba: 37.5
Marvin: 35.0
Courtney: 34.2
Frank: 33.6
Al: 24.4
Nic: 22.0
Jeremy: 21.7
steady wrote:Minutes allocation in the Heat series for Lin.
Game 3 - Hornets first win, Lin was the Hornets highest scorer with 18 points. Even though Lin was huge in that game, he ended the game with only 26 minutes.
By Game 4, Clifford had seen what Lin could do in the series, so Lin got 33.42. Another Hornets win.
Game 5, Lin got 34.33 minutes. Last Hornets win.
Game 6, was the game where a lot of people played poorly, and Kemba had a really monster game. Lin had a bone headed stretch of play. He was trying too hard to make plays. He only got 23.53 minutes in that game. Lin scored 8 points but was 1/8, and had 5 fouls, and 3 TOs. Bad game. Lee got 39 minutes (scored 2 points), Al got 30 minutes (scored 18 points). .
Game 6 was basically the back breaker - by Game 7 at home, the Heat were dominant from the start. Lin got less than 20 minutes, but it was probably because it was a blowout. Although it's true, Batum, coming back from injury, had 29 minutes. But Batum is Hornets main target in off season, so that made sense to me.
lookabove wrote:I watched most the Hornets games this year and biggest thing I notice was Lin seem to play significantly better when he started. I pull splits and stat confirm the eye test. Even for his Career Lin just more efficient when he start. He seems to rhythm player that need touches to get into his groove. Honestly as a pure bench player this year he didn't play that well. 51.8% true shooting is below average, but definitely brought defensive intensity every game. But when Lin started for the Hornets, he put borderline all-star numbers at top-tier efficiency. Only 6 other players this year had TS% >= 58.9 and put up 17.5 pts per game.
If I was Lin, he really needs to try to find a starter position.
With Cha
Started Games 13 - 17.5 ppg 4.0 rpg 4.8 apg 2.46 tov TS% 58.9 in 34.4 min
Bench Games 65 - 10.6 ppg 3.1 rpg 2.6 apg 1.81 tov TS% 51.8 in 24.6 min
Career
Started Games 183 - 14.2 ppg 3.1 rpg 5.7 apg 3.05 tov TS% 55.2 in 32.2 min
Bench Games 186 - 9.2 ppg 2.5 rpg 3.1 apg 1.68 tov TS% 53.2 in 21.4 min
TinmanZBoy wrote:I've said this before, the general positive tone about lin's success in Charlotte had a lot to do with the low contract and low expectation at the beginning of the season... it was not his best individual season at all... To be honest, I thought he should have absolutely killed last season since he was playing in the east, historically he was pretty good against eastern conference teams and guards... however his shooting dragged him down...there is no excuse for him, 4 years after his break-out and he shoots like this? really really dragged him down on offense... he has to improve his skills, particularly shooting...
he always has the ability to defend, in Clifford's system, he excelled and coach clifford recognizes his talents on defense, he is always better at defending PnRs and help defense than P. Beverley, Ronnie Price, Tony Douglas etc, McHale/Scott did not recognize that, they felt he had to be a pesky on ball defender to start with, which was wrong... quite frankly, defense is the least that I am worried about him...
Lin is like a lot of good players in this league, even for some all star level players, they need certain conditions to shine... they are not super stars... Hornets is a goos situation for him, but not an ideal one...
Thanks for the honesty.MorbidHEAT wrote:My dislike for Lin started during Linsanity. It was absurd. It's probably irrational dislike at this point, but man he gets on my nerves. He's been tearing us up though.
yosemiteben wrote:tonman wrote:and yet despite playing starters minutes for the entire season and playoffs, lee never scored over 18 pts in a game.
How is that a relevant data point? Our offense was far improved while Lee was here even with JLin getting less minutes and posting lower efficiency post-ASB, so it's not like he hurt us offensively.tonman wrote:again, the playing next to Kemba and Batum is one thing, the you have Kemba or Batum down, who you gonna roll with is another question.
Well it'd be a lot easier to absorb that loss if we have a top tier FA plugged in as a starter, which we pretty much can't have if we give Lin an $8M deal.
yosemiteben wrote:I don't think there is any argument that Lin was more valuable than Marv last season. Marv was arguably a top 10 PF in the entire league.
BlackOutBuzz wrote:yosemiteben wrote:I don't think there is any argument that Lin was more valuable than Marv last season. Marv was arguably a top 10 PF in the entire league.
Splitting hairs...they're at least comparable. The point is Marvin isn't more than twice the player Lin is even if our best offers reflect it.
And I'm not buying the top ten PF thing.
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yosemiteben wrote:BlackOutBuzz wrote:yosemiteben wrote:I don't think there is any argument that Lin was more valuable than Marv last season. Marv was arguably a top 10 PF in the entire league.
Splitting hairs...they're at least comparable. The point is Marvin isn't more than twice the player Lin is even if our best offers reflect it.
And I'm not buying the top ten PF thing.
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How many PFs shot 40+% from three and also put up borderline top 10 rim protection stats? Marv was a total bad ass last season. I don't think it's splitting hairs, Marv was immensely more valuable than Lin and that's not a knock on Lin.
BlackOutBuzz wrote:I think there is definitely a case that can be made that Lin is just as valuable as guys like Marvin and Lee, if not moreso. Honestly, he probably deserves 8 figures per year under the upcoming salary cap. What Lin fans need to understand though is that each of these situations are different. It's not that we think Marvin is really worth 3x as much, but our predicament as a likely over-the-cap team really leaves our hands tied.
If we were operating under the cap then we could easily divide up the cap space more proportionally, but player rights are obviously not transferable. Instead, being over the cap leaves us at the mercy of the player's respective Bird Rights and any other exceptions we may have. Here are the MAXIMUM amounts we can offer each of the three players in year 1, based on their respective Bird Rights.
Courtney Lee (Full Bird): 10-year max
Marvin Williams (Early Bird): $12,250,000
Jeremy Lin (Non-Bird): $2,566,800
Lin's amount obviously pales in comparison, but again there's really nothing we can do about that. So now we turn to exceptions. The Room Exception is only available to teams under the cap, and we are ineligible for the Bi-Annual Exception after using it on Lin last year. That leaves the full Mid-Level Exception of $5,628,000. That's basically the limit to what we can do.
The real bitch about all of this is - had we given Lin the MLE last year (ahem, as I suggested) instead of leaving it unused - we could offer him a one-year deal of about $6.55M using his Non-Bird Rights, then turn around next year and offer up to $11.5M per year with his Early Bird Rights in 2017. Oh, and we'd still have the Bi-annual and MLE to use on other players. *sigh*
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BlackOutBuzz wrote:I think there is definitely a case that can be made that Lin is just as valuable as guys like Marvin and Lee, if not moreso. Honestly, he probably deserves 8 figures per year under the upcoming salary cap. What Lin fans need to understand though is that each of these situations are different. It's not that we think Marvin is really worth 3x as much, but our predicament as a likely over-the-cap team really leaves our hands tied.
If we were operating under the cap then we could easily divide up the cap space more proportionally, but player rights are obviously not transferable. Instead, being over the cap leaves us at the mercy of the player's respective Bird Rights and any other exceptions we may have. Here are the MAXIMUM amounts we can offer each of the three players in year 1, based on their respective Bird Rights.
Courtney Lee (Full Bird): 10-year max
Marvin Williams (Early Bird): $12,250,000
Jeremy Lin (Non-Bird): $2,566,800
Lin's amount obviously pales in comparison, but again there's really nothing we can do about that. So now we turn to exceptions. The Room Exception is only available to teams under the cap, and we are ineligible for the Bi-Annual Exception after using it on Lin last year. That leaves the full Mid-Level Exception of $5,628,000. That's basically the limit to what we can do.
The real bitch about all of this is - had we given Lin the MLE last year (ahem, as I suggested) instead of leaving it unused - we could offer him a one-year deal of about $6.55M using his Non-Bird Rights, then turn around next year and offer up to $11.5M per year with his Early Bird Rights in 2017. Oh, and we'd still have the Bi-annual and MLE to use on other players. *sigh*
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rallydurham wrote:I don't know how anyone could honestly support paying a backup pg anywhere near 10-12m per year. It's just illogical.
Teams like Brooklyn, dallas, Philly all have incentive to offer lin much more than we should ever consider.
He's about to make as much as kemba makes. That's just silly for us to entertain