2016 NBA Draft

[Ranma]

Meanwhile, Doc's last trade was giving up a protected first-round pick for the expiring contract (and Bird rights) to Jeff Green. Under normal circumstances, such a deal would fall close to what Cuban just described, except from the other side of the trade table. The funny thing--and I've said this before--is that this was one of Doc's better deals relative to his previous trades of first-round picks.

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[Quake Griffin]

Please don't tell me you two have heat because of your differences on Doc Rivers.

You guys are both two of my fav heads on the forum even though I know Rich hates that I'm turning into a bit of a Doc Rivers downer. I still enjoy him talking me off the ledge when I get emotional about it.


smh.

[Quake Griffin]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/739548559440269313[/tweet]

I guess, again, I'm wondering how far we can move up and if that means we're going to have to throw in any players (Wilcox) to get it done?

[og15]

Not into the lottery IMO. Late teens at best I would say, something like 16th - 19th. Could be done by combining both of our picks or like you said, Wilcox + 25th for example.

[QRich3]

Please don't tell me you two have heat because of your differences on Doc Rivers.

You guys are both two of my fav heads on the forum even though I know Rich hates that I'm turning into a bit of a Doc Rivers downer. I still enjoy him talking me off the ledge when I get emotional about it.

Hehe no hate from me man, never that. Not from talking ball, and definitely not to my fellow Clipper brothers. I get heated making my point some times and I'm stubborn as a ****, but never no hate for you, Ranma, or anyone here.

Not into the lottery IMO. Late teens at best I would say, something like 16th - 19th. Could be done by combining both of our picks or like you said, Wilcox + 25th for example.

Yeah, to be honest I doubt that package is even enough to get into the teens, best case scenario, even offering both picks + Wilcox/Dawson, might be Atlanta's 21, and even that's not a sure thing. And 21's probably not high enough to get Prince
I wish the Celtics somehow got a hard on for bringin Pierce back and we could extract some value off them, but it doesn't seem likely.

[Ranma]

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[og15]

They'll probably offer some preliminary deals based on if a guy they want falls to a team that is interested

[TucsonClip]

Meanwhile, Doc's last trade was giving up a protected first-round pick for the expiring contract (and Bird rights) to Jeff Green. Under normal circumstances, such a deal would fall close to what Cuban just described, except from the other side of the trade table. The funny thing--and I've said this before--is that this was one of Doc's better deals relative to his previous trades of first-round picks.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/espn_macmahon/status/740291389968113664[/tweet]

Cuban is a smart guy and understands the value of a future pick, let alone the value of a rookie scale contract these days.

[TucsonClip]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevekylerNBA/status/739548559440269313[/tweet]

I guess, again, I'm wondering how far we can move up and if that means we're going to have to throw in any players (Wilcox) to get it done?

I dont see them moving very far past 20.

[mkwest]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/NBAWind/status/740590212934311936[/tweet]

Malik Beasley has surgery, limiting pre-draft workouts

ESPN NBA Draft Insider Chad Ford reported on Tuesday afternoon that former Florida State guard Malik Beasley has had a minor surgery that will limit his ability to go through full workouts during the NBA pre-draft evaluation process.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/740244520567070720[/tweet]

Beasley has already met with several NBA teams including the Denver Nuggets, Golden State Warriors, Los Angeles Clippers, Philadelphia 76ers, and more. He is set to visit with the Chicago Bulls in the coming days.

Chris Nee, 247 Sports

[Ranma]

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[TucsonClip]

I was really hoping we could snag Dejounte Murray with one of our picks to develop as our versatile guard, but he keeps flying up the draft boards.

[QRich3]

Cuban is a smart guy and understands the value of a future pick, let alone the value of a rookie scale contract these days.

Come on man. I swear down I put my best effort not to be that guy over and over again, but then I see stuff like this and can't refrain from answering.

Cuban's been the owner of the Mavericks for 17 years, and out of those 17 1st round picks, he's traded away 14. From the three he didn't trade, one lasted 44 games before they traded him away (Maurice Ager), and another 55 and counting (Justin Anderson). So, basically, while the jury is out on Anderson, the only 1st round draft pick Cuban has made use of in 17 years has been Josh Howard in 2003. There hasn't been a guy who values draft picks less than Cuban since Ted Stepien.

What he's saying only looks smart if you don't really think about it too deeply and just get the vague idea that draft picks are oh so valuable. They are, and increasingly so, but putting Cuban as an example of a smart guy that values draft picks, just to take a shot at Doc, is hard to take seriously.

There's enough reasons to be critical of Doc that everyone can agree on, no need to resort to this kind of cartoonish exaggerations every two posts. It gets tiring.

[TucsonClip]

Cuban is a smart guy and understands the value of a future pick, let alone the value of a rookie scale contract these days.

Come on man. I swear down I put my best effort not to be that guy over and over again, but then I see stuff like this and can't refrain from answering.

Cuban's been the owner of the Mavericks for 17 years, and out of those 17 1st round picks, he's traded away 14. From the three he didn't trade, one lasted 44 games before they traded him away (Maurice Ager), and another 55 and counting (Justin Anderson). So, basically, while the jury is out on Anderson, the only 1st round draft pick Cuban has made use of in 17 years has been Josh Howard in 2003. There hasn't been a guy who values draft picks less than Cuban since Ted Stepien.

What he's saying only looks smart if you don't really think about it too deeply and just get the vague idea that draft picks are oh so valuable. They are, and increasingly so, but putting Cuban as an example of a smart guy that values draft picks, just to take a shot at Doc, is hard to take seriously.

There's enough reasons to be critical of Doc that everyone can agree on, no need to resort to this kind of cartoonish exaggerations every two posts. It gets tiring.

I mean, im not trying to have a battle royal with you, but you are looking at those deals on the surface value and ignoring what actually happened. So... excuse me for being that guy as it isn't personal, you just are missing all context.

My statement was that Cuban understands the value of a future pick and a player on a rookie scale contract (specifically moving forward with the cap jump).

Furthermore:

2013: Traded Olynyk (13th pick) for Lucas Nogueira (16th pick) and two future 2nd round draft picks. He then dealt Nogueira, Mike Muscala, and Jared Cunningham to Atlanta Shane Larkin (18th pick).

2012: Dealt Tyler Zeller (17th pick) and Kelenna Azubuike to the Cavs for Jared Cunningham (24th pick), Bernard James (33rd pick) and Jae Crowder (34th pick).

2011: Traded Jordan Hamilton (26th pick) and Tnaguy Ngombo (57th pick) for Rudy Fernandez and Petteri Koponen. Rudy was expected to help fill their rotation after winning a title and it didnt work out.

2010: Dealt $3 mil for Dominique Jones (25th pick).

2009: Traded B.J. Mullens (24th pick) to OKC Rodrigue Beaubois (25th pick) and a future 2nd.

2004: Traded Antawn Jamison and cash to Washington for Jerry Stackhouse, Christian Laettner, and Devin Harris (5th pick).

[QRich3]

But you just expanded the deals into other players they didn't use, how is that missing the context.

Larkin played 48 games before he was traded. Cuban wanted out of that draft because he wanted capspace to get Howard, that's why he traded down for Nogueira and then down again for Larkin

Cunningham played a grand total of 8 games for them, you even have him on your post being traded again next draft. James was a garbage time player for a bit before he went to Turkey, and Crowder was an 8th man for two seasons before he got himself traded for a veteran in Rondo, and actually became a good player in another team.

Rudy had been in the league for years and was traded away as soon as the lockout was over before he had time to even practice, so not sure about that.

Jones and Beaubois didn't work out but they tried to make it work, I'll give you that. So did they with Harris.

But even then, that's what, 5, 6 picks they actually tried to use seriously in 17 years? Is that really the example you wanna use for a smart guy that values picks? He just said what most Mavs fans wanted to hear, just like Doc does, it's not like he just woke up and realized how valuable picks are with the cap jump.

No battle royal on my part, I probably should've shut up and let the circlejerk go on. Kind of regret it now.

[nickhx2]

i think it's more about the distinction that cuban is acknowledging the value of first rounders going forward. if doc went out and said the same thing that'd be praise worthy.

[TucsonClip]

But you just expanded the deals into other players they didn't use, how is that missing the context.

Larkin played 48 games before he was traded. Cuban wanted out of that draft because he wanted capspace to get Howard, that's why he traded down for Nogueira and then down again for Larkin

Cunningham played a grand total of 8 games for them, you even have him on your post being traded again next draft. James was a garbage time player for a bit before he went to Turkey, and Crowder was an 8th man for two seasons before he got himself traded for a veteran in Rondo, and actually became a good player in another team.

Rudy had been in the league for years and was traded away as soon as the lockout was over before he had time to even practice, so not sure about that.

Jones and Beaubois didn't work out but they tried to make it work, I'll give you that. So did they with Harris.

But even then, that's what, 5, 6 picks they actually tried to use seriously in 17 years? Is that really the example you wanna use for a smart guy that values picks? He just said what most Mavs fans wanted to hear, just like Doc does, it's not like he just woke up and realized how valuable picks are with the cap jump.

No battle royal on my part, I probably should've shut up and let the circlejerk go on. Kind of regret it now.

Because, as my original point illustrates, Cuban understands the value of future picks and players on rookie deals.

Cuban isnt just dumping draft picks for retread players or for one-year rentals and bird rights... Cuban has shown he understands that draft picks are valuable, so even if he trades a pick, he usually adds another pick in return to supplement the departure of a future asset/player.

If you want to have a discussion about how Cuban and his front office have utilized and/or developed those draft picks, that's a completely different debate.

Again, the birth of this entire conversation stems from Doc's usage of draft picks (which has been wasteful) to now Cuban's (which has merit, philosophy and is based on analysis of the present and the future).

Regarding this being a "circlejerk", you're the one who keeps nitpicking statements. As I said, Cuban understands the value of draft picks and the contracts which attach to those players, especially moving forward in this new age of cap expansion. I dont think your post illustrates anything to the contrary, which is why my rebuttal was posted.

The difference between he and his front office and Doc's front office in regards to draft picks is night and day, IMO. I actually applaud Cuban for empowering his front office to continue to search for rotation pieces via the draft (even if that requires trading one selection for a new one). Better than wasting a guy in 3 different D-League franchises before realizing they arent rotation worthy players.

Again, nothing personal, as I appreciate all your contributions here. I just firmly lean more on the side of homegrown development via the draft vs. Doc's approach of supplementing our core.

[QRich3]

Again, nothing personal, as I appreciate all your contributions here. I just firmly lean more on the side of homegrown development via the draft vs. Doc's approach of supplementing our core.

I do too, and usually like your Clippers articles, so I'll preface this by apologizing if I came out as confrontational. Definitely nothing personal in all this.

I still have to keep disagreeing with you on this subject. While I think I have the same love as you do for homegrown development, I see Doc's approach vs the rest of the league, and the Mavs in this case in particular, as not really all that different if you look at it with some depth.

Everyone knows that draft picks are valuable, and everyone knows that the bigger the cap, the more valuable they are at a fixed price. That's a given, and implying Doc or his FO can't grasp that is painting them as caricatures and does a disservice to a realistic conversation. But the situation is not as simple as picks = good, trading picks = bad. There's a high value in trading them before they stop becoming this precious thing of indefinite potential and start being just another flawed young guy trying to get into a rotation.

And Cuban saw that value all these years, and that's why they traded picks for veteran guys like Odom, Dampier, Walker. Not saying he is not smart at all, just that you're purposely seeing all of his cleverness in a meaningless quote (nobody remembers last week's quote by Doc making a big deal of this year's #33??), while you exaggerate Doc's disdain for picks (we still haven't even gotten to the point when we would've used any of the picks he traded).

If draft picks were becoming untradeable, golden boys Bob Myers, Sam Presti, David Griffin wouldn't have traded multiple future 1st rounders for role playing veterans the same way Doc did.

And I don't really get how having Ager play for multiple D-League teams for 3 years before getting rid of him, and turning Linas Kleiza into Pavel Podkolzin, or Olynyk + Cunningham + Muscala (so 2 1sts and a 2nd) into Shane Larkin was "empowering his front office to continue to search for rotation pieces via the draft", but turning Bullock into Austin Rivers or buying a pick to take a chance on Dawson is just wasting away guys. It seems to me all of those things are taking chances at finding talent with varying success, and you're just seeing the speck in Doc's eye.

[mkwest]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/chrisadempsey/status/741383550432202753[/tweet]

[Quake Griffin]

I like this Kris Dunn kid a lot. People keep saying PG but I see a D. Wade type SG in him.

I'd do a lot to get him here.....and I am in no way going to indicate what a lot is ITT.
but...a lot.

K.
talk to you guys later.
brb