'15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[bondom34]

I just keep saying it, and I don't know if it helps at all but:

Your team isn't going to win the title this year (obviously), but in terms of how I judge them, they effectively did.

This isn't to say that I'm putting an asterisk by Golden State, because that's not what I do, but I can't take seriously any argument about OKC being disappointments.

You'll see me harping on Westbrook from time to time though of course...because that IS what I do.

I know.

I still have a hard time even watching the Finals right now, I've barely seen any of it. This was the worst feeling I've had going out in a while, even through the injured years, just seems like any minor thing could have changed so much. And now there's probably no player I want to see not win more than Green in the NBA. I know that's a really biased statement, but right now its just honest.

Edit: And I've never been a conspiracy theory guy, but this is making it harder.

Completely understandable.

Re: conspiracy. The thing about most conspiracy theories is that people aren't really able to put themselves into the shoes of the people they see as the conspirators.

It's not remotely worthwhile for the NBA to rig the lottery because it involves serious organization for iffy reward with potentially devastating consequences.

On the other hand here, the NBA can render whatever verdict they want and so it's not even really a conspiracy other than the fact that they won't acknowledge their motivations. They'll basically try to hide behind people saying "he got one more chance and blew it", ignoring the fact that that he just kept getting more chances until he did it at a point where the NBA could act in a seemingly strict way while at the same time help a series get more competitive.

I'll also say here: The stuff I"m alleging isn't necessarily even something Silver & co are conscious of. It frankly is possible to let your subjective impulses rule your judgment this blindly. I just have a hard time by that a man as shrewd as Silver is one of those men.

Yeah I wouldn't classify this as some conspiracy either. I do think its a mix of things, including the points accumulation being a bailout excuse. I think that, plus who the foul was on (Lebron vs. Adams and Kanter) and the series standings being more lopsided all may have factored in a bit. But it leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth knowing there's some seeming preferential treatment.

[Marcus50]

Draymond had this coming but is should have come when he kicked Adams in the nuts. The danger for the NBA is the interpretation that it is OK for a NBA to kcik a lesser ranked player in the pecking order but not someone ranked higher. I dont for one moment think that is the case but their failure to act on the kicking of Adams opens the door to such criticism

[JordansBulls]

This suspension could also be set up to make sure Curry gets finals mvp as well in case people were thinking of voting for Green.

[Doctor MJ]

Draymond had this coming but is should have come when he kicked Adams in the nuts. The danger for the NBA is the interpretation that it is OK for a NBA to kcik a lesser ranked player in the pecking order but not someone ranked higher. I dont for one moment think that is the case but their failure to act on the kicking of Adams opens the door to such criticism

Good point.

I really think the fact this happened in an incident with LeBron had nothing to do with that being the thing that actually caused the suspension, but it's one more thing that doesn't look good.

[Doctor MJ]

This suspension could also be set up to make sure Curry gets finals mvp as well in case people were thinking of voting for Green.

No, it really couldn't. Fans care about stuff like that, executives do not.

[kayess]

Alright so I haven't been good about reminding people to PM to ask to have a vote, so what I'm going to do is this:

Everyone who signs up on the list for most posts on this thread gets a vote. I'll put them below in quotes so I make sure they see it.

Does this mean "if you are on the list of posters with the most posts on this thread, you get a vote"?

Otherwise, I'm not sure if I deserve a vote

[Doctor MJ]

Alright so I haven't been good about reminding people to PM to ask to have a vote, so what I'm going to do is this:

Everyone who signs up on the list for most posts on this thread gets a vote. I'll put them below in quotes so I make sure they see it.

Does this mean "if you are on the list of posters with the most posts on this thread, you get a vote"?

Otherwise, I'm not sure if I deserve a vote

Sorry. What I'm trying to say is:

-People with the most posts - who I referenced - definitely get a vote.

-If you're name isn't on the list and you want a vote, you should PM me to request one. I won't guarantee that I'll say yet, but I expect most who ask for a vote I'll say yes to.

[Nbafanatic]

About the Green situation, I agree with everything Doctor MJ said, very well put. He was already outside my top 5, and now he'll for sure be placed in the 6th to 10th range to me.

Some thoughts on Westbrook vs Durant here: Obviously Russel is the better pick and roll ball handler and therefore comands most of those actions for the team, but he also benefits for the gravity Durant provides him, as defenses have to account for Kevin's 3 point range. OTOH, Durant is more turnover prone as the ball handler in those kind of plays, but when he plays alongside Westbrook, Russel's defender is able to clog up Durant's space more, as Westbrook is one of the worst volume 3 point shooters in the league, so this have to be taken into account assessing those type of plays. Durant is a killer coming of pin downs since the 2009/10 season, and in instances the Thunder did that in these playoffs they had great success as well, especially in the Spurs series. When San Antonio started to deny him the ball there the Thunder were able to use some other options, but they didn't really had a counter using this same kind of play, using the big man as a passer, for instance, so I think this is an adjustment to be expected on the second year under Billy Donovan. I always had the feeling that Durant is a better overal player than Westbrook, and I think Westbrook stepping up last year and keeping on his peak this year really didn't change much, only lessened the gap, since Durant was back 100% after his surgeries. To me, Westbrook does too many defensive mistakes in gambles or simply being in no man's land too many times, and Durant is a substantially better defensive player as a result of that. Of course Russel is the heart of the team, and his hustle really contaminates the rest of his squad, so he has the advantage on this front. Anyway, all things considered, Durant is the better player and had the better season than Westbrook, with his killer defense against the Spurs and the Warriors being the tiebreaker to me, as Russel was slightly better on the regular season.

About Curry's injury and how he should be penalized for that, I think it shouldn't prevent him to be the POY. He did one of greatest offensive regular seasons ever, and was crucial for his team to have HCA overall and an easier life through rounds 1 and 2. Why shouldn't he be able to benefit from a circumstance he helped to be conquered in a big way? Without his play, the Warriors would be fighting for a third seed in the best case scenario, anyway. In comparison to Paul, who had a great regular season himself, all things considered he still played considerably worse than '16 Curry, and Stephen has had some good enough playoffs when his presence was for sure called upon, for the majority of time.

[kayess]

Alright so I haven't been good about reminding people to PM to ask to have a vote, so what I'm going to do is this:

Everyone who signs up on the list for most posts on this thread gets a vote. I'll put them below in quotes so I make sure they see it.

Does this mean "if you are on the list of posters with the most posts on this thread, you get a vote"?

Otherwise, I'm not sure if I deserve a vote

Sorry. What I'm trying to say is:

-People with the most posts - who I referenced - definitely get a vote.

-If you're name isn't on the list and you want a vote, you should PM me to request one. I won't guarantee that I'll say yet, but I expect most who ask for a vote I'll say yes to.

Got it!

[Ballerhogger]

Let's see how curry performs without draymond the Warriors are Iike +55 with draymond on the court and - 15 without him.

As for my top player this year I'm leaning pretty close to Westbrook .

[bondom34]

I think we can throw out the idea Lebron needed to do less last season in the Finals now.

[Colbinii]

I think we can throw out the idea Lebron needed to do less last season in the Finals now.

People that say that are moronic. I am pretty sure Cleveland scored 8 points with LeBron on the bench last finals. I remember seeing the statistic and it being ridiculously low.

[kayess]

I think we can throw out the idea Lebron needed to do less last season in the Finals now.

Not sure how that was even remotely an argument. Some people's agendas man...

[Doctor MJ]

I think we can throw out the idea Lebron needed to do less last season in the Finals now.

I know the idea was brought up, but my main sticking point back then was simply that it wasn't actually working well offensively. Not saying another way would have worked as well, but people saw the stats and said "GOAT!" when what they said to me was that it just wasn't a way to play on a serious offense hoping to actually have a high ORtg.

I'll also add that tonight seems like it was basically about as good as it will ever get for a LeBron-based offense, and that's a problem, because it was not remotely sustainable. And by that I mean more than that the Big 2 won't always shoot like that, but that even when things are going perfectly you're going to have Mark Jackson complaining about one of LeBron's supposed star offensive teammates being a disappointment.

Love's defense is problematic and we all know that, but I'm watching this offense and wondering what Love could even do out there to help. There's no room for a 3rd scoring option, there's no room for a great passer, and this guy who led the league in rebounding not too long ago has to stay out further form the rim than LeBron or Kyrie in order to give them the space they need to operate. Obviously that implies that a SF would be a better fit than a PF, but even then, if that guy were known for being an offensive star, he'd soon be getting talked about as 'too passive'.

[bondom34]

I think we can throw out the idea Lebron needed to do less last season in the Finals now.

I know the idea was brought up, but my main sticking point back then was simply that it wasn't actually working well offensively. Not saying another way would have worked as well, but people saw the stats and said "GOAT!" when what they said to me was that it just wasn't a way to play on a serious offense hoping to actually have a high ORtg.

I'll also add that tonight seems like it was basically about as good as it will ever get for a LeBron-based offense, and that's a problem, because it was not remotely sustainable. And by that I mean more than that the Big 2 won't always shoot like that, but that even when things are going perfectly you're going to have Mark Jackson complaining about one of LeBron's supposed star offensive teammates being a disappointment.

Love's defense is problematic and we all know that, but I'm watching this offense and wondering what Love could even do out there to help. There's no room for a 3rd scoring option, there's no room for a great passer, and this guy who led the league in rebounding not too long ago has to stay out further form the rim than LeBron or Kyrie in order to give them the space they need to operate. Obviously that implies that a SF would be a better fit than a PF, but even then, if that guy were known for being an offensive star, he'd soon be getting talked about as 'too passive'.

I'm turning totally on Love, he just looks so lost.

But as for the rest, maybe it was the best, but it didn't need to be that good. They held GSW to a 94ish O Rating, and 74 in the 2nd half. They don;t have any better options and finally went with the one that gave the best shot at winning and for the 2nd year in a row it worked.

[GSP]

Let's see how curry performs without draymond the Warriors are Iike +55 with draymond on the court and - 15 without him.

As for my top player this year I'm leaning pretty close to Westbrook .

-30 without Draymond now if thats the case. Could his Fmvp case actually have been strengthened without playing?

This game really reminded me of that Nuggets game without Draymond. Kyrie/Lebron were hitting shots they dont normally but those pickandrolls early really got them in a groove. The Warriors are such a poor pickandroll defending team without Draymond and it showed in that Nuggets game too. As well as their rim protection dissolving.

[mikejames23]

I am fairly certain LeBron's avoiding full time PF as some sort of a career extension move. I would watch BBall Breakdown's videos and LeBron would at times shy away from being responsible for the opposing team's big man. He's been on the record saying he wouldn't be playing PF full time in the 2015 run as well.

Anyway, GSW should still win the series, so it's not really an issue. I am having a difficult time mostly pegging Draymond's offensive value. I want to say he's about as good as Lamar Odom in the Gasol era Lakers, but w/the way GSW ran its O tonight, I feel like he's a superior playmaker than I have given him credit for.

[tone wone]

I'll also add that tonight seems like it was basically about as good as it will ever get for a LeBron-based offense, and that's a problem, because it was not remotely sustainable. And by that I mean more than that the Big 2 won't always shoot like that, but that even when things are going perfectly you're going to have Mark Jackson complaining about one of LeBron's supposed star offensive teammates being a disappointment.

Love's defense is problematic and we all know that, but I'm watching this offense and wondering what Love could even do out there to help. There's no room for a 3rd scoring option, there's no room for a great passer, and this guy who led the league in rebounding not too long ago has to stay out further form the rim than LeBron or Kyrie in order to give them the space they need to operate.

A lot of this is exaggerated by the matchup. Facing a team with a wave of 6'7-6'9 long-armed smart defenders takes away a lot of what Cle is offensively. The ball movement is based on clean-piercing penetration that collapses the d and forces rotation. CLE just cant consistently generate this against the Warriors. Love just doesn't have many places to exist in this match-up. Their rotations and close outs have been too quick...him putting the ball on the floor has produced nothing good this series. By this point everyone should know how impotent his post work is outside glaring mismatches. I wanna know how many teams with 2 other scorers could Love actually star on?

Obviously that implies that a SF would be a better fit than a PF, but even then, if that guy were known for being an offensive star, he'd soon be getting talked about as 'too passive'.

This is not a small thing. Anthony Davis, Draymond & Milsap are probably the only 4's i'd place next James. Wings are the ideal pairing with Lebron. The Lebron-Battier pairing in MIA gave us a clear picture of just how special Lebron+3 n D wing can be. And that was with Shane being nothing more that a spot shooter/ball-mover. Jefferson in this series has sort of given us a sneak peak into what happens when that SF has just a little athleticism to attack close outs and off-ball activity. Is Paul George an offensive star? What about Jimmy Butler? I dont think they'd be deemed too passive on this team. Their pick n roll acumen would be welcomed (neither guy is great at it mid you). Cle needs another ball-handler badly.

[therealbig3]

I'm actually trying to think of what Love does well enough that would warrant him to have a bigger role in the offense. He's not a good enough finisher or scorer to really contribute in any way other than to stand at the 3pt line. In fact, the least he could do is hit those open 3s at a higher clip.

[bondom34]

I'm actually trying to think of what Love does well enough that would warrant him to have a bigger role in the offense. He's not a good enough finisher or scorer to really contribute in any way other than to stand at the 3pt line. In fact, the least he could do is hit those open 3s at a higher clip.

I was always pro Love and thought Kyrie should go. Now I think either Love should go or both.