Dragan Bender - 97 born Croatian prospect

[eathb_au]

Has now dropped to 7 on draftnet

[doordoor123]

Has now dropped to 7 on draftnet

Now you know not to go to their site because that is not correct at all.

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

Has now dropped to 7 on draftnet

Now you know not to go to their site because that is not correct at all.

DX has followed suit, and has Bender mocked at 7 now as well lol.

[Mustinjo]

Has now dropped to 7 on draftnet

Now you know not to go to their site because that is not correct at all.

DX has followed suit, and has Bender mocked at 7 now as well lol.

They have ranked him #3, but they in their mock draft he is #7. On the other hand, they have Chriss ranked #11 and mocked him #3.

This is either the biggest smokescreen ever combined with agents spreading BS, or the nba teams have lost their minds.

[Slartibartfast]

How much tougher is the competition in the Israeli league than the Adriatic league?

Because comparing Ante Zizic at the same age last year, Zizic comes out more productive. 19/9 per 40 compared to Bender's 15/8. Comparable shot-blocking. They have essentially the same measurables (same standing reach, similar wingspans)

Now Bender is clearly more versatile - with nice percentages and volume from 3, more assists and a superior steal rate - but for someone with more polish, he's actually significantly more foul-prone. He's also much less of a force in the paint offensively - Zizic almost doubles him in FTAs and bests him on the offensive glass.

Nor was Zizic a guy who just matured early and plateaued - he's made major leaps this year. Now up to 20/12 per 40 on remarkable shooting efficiency and a FT machine.

I get that Bender's jack-of-all-trade skillset is en vogue and he wowed a lot of people in the tournaments but I'm wondering if there might not be that much gap between these two as NBA prospects.

[Mustinjo]

Bender's team is miles better than Zizic's. Like 10th best player on Maccabi earns a lot more than top paid guy in Cibona.

If Bender played on mediocre Israeli team like Zizic did on mediocre ABA team his role would have been much different, not to mention his minutes. That's why is hard to take his stats on a face value; his role was basically stand in the corner on offense and defend the perimeter on defense. Second youngest player in Maccabi's Euroleague rotation besides Bender was more than seven years older than him. That's just mind blowing.

[MHZ]

Has now dropped to 7 on draftnet

Now you know not to go to their site because that is not correct at all.

DX has followed suit, and has Bender mocked at 7 now as well lol.

ALL the international players to Denver, por favor.

[Dr Positivity]

How much tougher is the competition in the Israeli league than the Adriatic league?

Think the Adriatic League is better, but Bender's stats in Israeli league are still deflated by how there's like 8 or 9 guys better than him on his team, which means a smaller role in the offense, etc.

[Mustinjo]

How much tougher is the competition in the Israeli league than the Adriatic league?

Think the Adriatic League is better, but Bender's stats in Israeli league are still deflated by how there's like 8 or 9 guys better than him on his team, which means a smaller role in the offense, etc.

Maccabi is better than any Adriatic league team (although this year maybe not), they even participated one season in ABA 3 or 4 years ago and won it pretty convincingly. ABA is more competitive though, a lot of teams are evenly matched.

[Slartibartfast]

Bender's team is miles better than Zizic's. Like 10th best player on Maccabi earns a lot more than top paid guy in Cibona.

If Bender played on mediocre Israeli team like Zizic did on mediocre ABA team his role would have been much different, not to mention his minutes. That's why is hard to take his stats on a face value; his role was basically stand in the corner on offense and defend the perimeter on defense. Second youngest player in Maccabi's Euroleague rotation besides Bender was more than seven years older than him. That's just mind blowing.

But isn't that his likely role in the NBA too?

Zizic's likely role in the pros is to set mean screens and roll hard, crash the offensive glass, duck-in for quick post-ups and play long-armed, high-intensity big man D. An Anderson Varejao type. That's pretty much what he does for Cibona, no?

Likewise, Bender projects as a passing/rim-running stretch big utilized a la Kirilenko defensively. Which seems to be what he does for Maccabi.

[Novocaine]

How much tougher is the competition in the Israeli league than the Adriatic league?

Because comparing Ante Zizic at the same age last year, Zizic comes out more productive. 19/9 per 40 compared to Bender's 15/8. Comparable shot-blocking. They have essentially the same measurables (same standing reach, similar wingspans)

Now Bender is clearly more versatile - with nice percentages and volume from 3, more assists and a superior steal rate - but for someone with more polish, he's actually significantly more foul-prone. He's also much less of a force in the paint offensively - Zizic almost doubles him in FTAs and bests him on the offensive glass.

Nor was Zizic a guy who just matured early and plateaued - he's made major leaps this year. Now up to 20/12 per 40 on remarkable shooting efficiency and a FT machine.

I get that Bender's jack-of-all-trade skillset is en vogue and he wowed a lot of people in the tournaments but I'm wondering if there might not be that much gap between these two as NBA prospects.

It's always tough to make these comparisons. The Israeli league has the best team by far (at least in normal years), the ABA has a better upper middle class and has much better domestic talent and more continuity, the Israeli league has more and better American imports; the ABA teams tend to play in a more structured style while the Israeli league is the closest thing to the NBA playing style in Europe (or the D-League playing style), as teams rely on American players and there's a huge roster turnover season over season. For example, the team that finished last this season had a roster with Sundiata Gaines (a guy with over 100 NBA games and a couple of All-SEC selections), Roscoe Smith (who won the national championship with UConn and D-League standout), Terrico White (SEC rookie of the year and the 36th pick in the 2010 draft), Michel Watt (a former MAC POY who was briefly on the Warriors roster), Fuquan Edwin (Big East all-team and DPOY, a couple of NBA training camps), and Ivan Aska (who played for those Murray St teams with Isaiah Canaan that made the tournament). These guys plus a couple of veteran Israeli players would make this team contender to the NCAA title on physicality, experience and athleticism alone, even all of them playing as seniors would be dangerous. They finished last in the Israeli league because pretty much every team has this type of roster -D-League stalwarts, 2nd round picks, SL and training camp warriors- and a lot depends on the chemistry they're able to create. I'd say the Israeli league has more individual talent in the starting 5s, the ABA has better teams at the top, and Maccabi in a normal year is on a different level.

Anyway, as Mustinjo says above, league level isn't that relevant of a factor. Players play for clubs, not for leagues, and that's the primary factor on their role and production. Trying to assess European based prospects on a statistical base is a lost cause because it's all about the circumstances.

To me there's a gigantic gap between Bender and Zizic, even if not right now in terms of putting up boxscore stats. It's not that Bender is more versatile, it's that he's elite at those things. Bender's shooting is extremely good for a 7 footer his age - I'm not sure I've ever seen a 17/18 years old 7 footer with better 3pt shooting. Durant. Perhaps Ryan Anderson, but he's not quite the same height and he had a shorter 3 point line - his fresh year was pre 2008, so quite a bit shorter. I'd be willing to bet none of the current shooting big men in the NBA were already as advanced as Bender is at 18. Bender's passing is probably at the very top I've ever seen for a big man his age. And his defense was the thing that impressed me more since the first times I saw him playing. I've seen plenty of young 7fters but none with Bender's ability to play so low to the floor and twitch his hips. He has that Kirilenko/Bobby Jones body type with 4 additional inches but he manages to sit lower and move his feet and change his hips faster than them. And then he can do everything Zizic does. At the same level - Zizic and Bender actually played together in the FIBA U18 not long ago, and often at the same position, even though Bender was basically a year younger - Bender had better shot-blocking numbers. Zizic can run the floor, but Bender can do it faster. Zizic has slightly better rebounding rate, but only because of the offensive rebounding (Bender played farther from the basket), Bender had a higher rate on the defensive board. Bender is just a guy who impacts the game on a different level, especially on defense and with his combo of passing and shooting.

[Mustinjo]

Bender's team is miles better than Zizic's. Like 10th best player on Maccabi earns a lot more than top paid guy in Cibona.

If Bender played on mediocre Israeli team like Zizic did on mediocre ABA team his role would have been much different, not to mention his minutes. That's why is hard to take his stats on a face value; his role was basically stand in the corner on offense and defend the perimeter on defense. Second youngest player in Maccabi's Euroleague rotation besides Bender was more than seven years older than him. That's just mind blowing.

But isn't that his likely role in the NBA too?

Zizic's likely role in the pros is to set mean screens and roll hard, crash the offensive glass, duck-in for quick post-ups and play long-armed, high-intensity big man D. An Anderson Varejao type. That's pretty much what he does for Cibona, no?

Likewise, Bender projects as a passing/rim-running stretch big utilized a la Kirilenko defensively. Which seems to be what he does for Maccabi.

Zizic was only decent big in Cibona. He was basically first or second offensive option all the time, especially against weaker ABA teams because those teams usually don't have quality bigs. He won't get nearly the same number of touches on a better team.

Bender's role was very limited because he was by far the youngest guy on a team and Maccabi doesn't have a system which is friendly for young players. Only thing they care about are short term results, there was no time or patience from their side to expand his role during the season. Both of those things will be much different for Dragan on whichever NBA team he ends up because there is more stability and emphasis on long term results in the NBA (with some exceptions).

[skywalker33]

Hey, I'd be OK selecting Bender at #7

[Mirotic12]

How much tougher is the competition in the Israeli league than the Adriatic league?

The Israeli League has far, far better American players than the Adriatic League. On the other hand, the Adriatic League has far, far better domestic players than the Israeli League, and also I think way better coaching.

So I don't think the Israeli League has tougher competition than the Adriatic League. In fact, I think the Adriatic League is better. With that being said, the level of the Adriatic League has dropped tremendously in recent years. I still think it's probably a better league though.

However, you are trying to compare leagues, rather than teams. As has already been discussed in this thread, in Europe the team you play on is much more important than the league you play in.

You simply can't compare playing in Maccabi (even this year's Maccabi, which is the worst of the club's history) to playing in Cibona. It is like night and day. Even this worst ever Maccabi is light years above a team like Cibona.

Again, it's more like NCAA than NBA in how the levels work. You have thousands of teams in Europe and dozens of leagues. So what matters more is the team you play in. That's more important than if you play in Israel or Adriatic leagues. Think of it this way, it is more important to play in Kentucky (SEC) than to play in some smaller ACC school. ACC is better than SEC, but playing in some team like Wake Forest is nothing to playing in Kentucky. That's the same way it works in Europe.

Bender's shooting is extremely good for a 7 footer his age - I'm not sure I've ever seen a 17/18 years old 7 footer with better 3pt shooting.

Fotsis isn't a 7 footer, but he's said to be 6-11 in shoes. So close enough.

[Dr Positivity]

How much tougher is the competition in the Israeli league than the Adriatic league?

Because comparing Ante Zizic at the same age last year, Zizic comes out more productive. 19/9 per 40 compared to Bender's 15/8. Comparable shot-blocking. They have essentially the same measurables (same standing reach, similar wingspans)

Now Bender is clearly more versatile - with nice percentages and volume from 3, more assists and a superior steal rate - but for someone with more polish, he's actually significantly more foul-prone. He's also much less of a force in the paint offensively - Zizic almost doubles him in FTAs and bests him on the offensive glass.

Nor was Zizic a guy who just matured early and plateaued - he's made major leaps this year. Now up to 20/12 per 40 on remarkable shooting efficiency and a FT machine.

I get that Bender's jack-of-all-trade skillset is en vogue and he wowed a lot of people in the tournaments but I'm wondering if there might not be that much gap between these two as NBA prospects.

It's always tough to make these comparisons. The Israeli league has the best team by far (at least in normal years), the ABA has a better upper middle class and has much better domestic talent and more continuity, the Israeli league has more and better American imports; the ABA teams tend to play in a more structured style while the Israeli league is the closest thing to the NBA playing style in Europe (or the D-League playing style), as teams rely on American players and there's a huge roster turnover season over season. For example, the team that finished last this season had a roster with Sundiata Gaines (a guy with over 100 NBA games and a couple of All-SEC selections), Roscoe Smith (who won the national championship with UConn and D-League standout), Terrico White (SEC rookie of the year and the 36th pick in the 2010 draft), Michel Watt (a former MAC POY who was briefly on the Warriors roster), Fuquan Edwin (Big East all-team and DPOY, a couple of NBA training camps), and Ivan Aska (who played for those Murray St teams with Isaiah Canaan that made the tournament). These guys plus a couple of veteran Israeli players would make this team contender to the NCAA title on physicality, experience and athleticism alone, even all of them playing as seniors would be dangerous. They finished last in the Israeli league because pretty much every team has this type of roster -D-League stalwarts, 2nd round picks, SL and training camp warriors- and a lot depends on the chemistry they're able to create. I'd say the Israeli league has more individual talent in the starting 5s, the ABA has better teams at the top, and Maccabi in a normal year is on a different level.

Anyway, as Mustinjo says above, league level isn't that relevant of a factor. Players play for clubs, not for leagues, and that's the primary factor on their role and production. Trying to assess European based prospects on a statistical base is a lost cause because it's all about the circumstances.

To me there's a gigantic gap between Bender and Zizic, even if not right now in terms of putting up boxscore stats. It's not that Bender is more versatile, it's that he's elite at those things. Bender's shooting is extremely good for a 7 footer his age - I'm not sure I've ever seen a 17/18 years old 7 footer with better 3pt shooting. Durant. Perhaps Ryan Anderson, but he's not quite the same height and he had a shorter 3 point line - his fresh year was pre 2008, so quite a bit shorter. I'd be willing to bet none of the current shooting big men in the NBA were already as advanced as Bender is at 18. Bender's passing is probably at the very top I've ever seen for a big man his age. And his defense was the thing that impressed me more since the first times I saw him playing. I've seen plenty of young 7fters but none with Bender's ability to play so low to the floor and twitch his hips. He has that Kirilenko/Bobby Jones body type with 4 additional inches but he manages to sit lower and move his feet and change his hips faster than them. And then he can do everything Zizic does. At the same level - Zizic and Bender actually played together in the FIBA U18 not long ago, and often at the same position, even though Bender was basically a year younger - Bender had better shot-blocking numbers. Zizic can run the floor, but Bender can do it faster. Zizic has slightly better rebounding rate, but only because of the offensive rebounding (Bender played farther from the basket), Bender had a higher rate on the defensive board. Bender is just a guy who impacts the game on a different level, especially on defense and with his combo of passing and shooting.

You may have good reason to say these things, but right now they're not reflected on the statsheet. For his reputation as a point forward, Bender is a surprisingly bad 15th on his own team in Assist %. I know you were referring to their U18 rebounding stats, but in their leagues this year Bender wasn't close to Zizic on defensive boards or offensive. Bender doesn't approach Zizic's success drawing fouls this year. Bender has a Usage %/FGA creation problem, which is the #1 difference between him and Porzingis at the same age. For his other weaknesses the thing that stands out about 13-14 Porzingis is he was showing his future volume scoring upside by already rating 2nd among real players in Usage, FGA/40 and Pts/40 on the team. Bender is 17th on his team in Usage, 14th in FGA/40 and 13th in Pts/40. Right now Bender's offensive game is taking spot up 3s and nothing else Cleveland Channing Frye style, which doesn't have to be the case even for an 18 year old prospect

[Novocaine]

How much tougher is the competition in the Israeli league than the Adriatic league?

Because comparing Ante Zizic at the same age last year, Zizic comes out more productive. 19/9 per 40 compared to Bender's 15/8. Comparable shot-blocking. They have essentially the same measurables (same standing reach, similar wingspans)

Now Bender is clearly more versatile - with nice percentages and volume from 3, more assists and a superior steal rate - but for someone with more polish, he's actually significantly more foul-prone. He's also much less of a force in the paint offensively - Zizic almost doubles him in FTAs and bests him on the offensive glass.

Nor was Zizic a guy who just matured early and plateaued - he's made major leaps this year. Now up to 20/12 per 40 on remarkable shooting efficiency and a FT machine.

I get that Bender's jack-of-all-trade skillset is en vogue and he wowed a lot of people in the tournaments but I'm wondering if there might not be that much gap between these two as NBA prospects.

It's always tough to make these comparisons. The Israeli league has the best team by far (at least in normal years), the ABA has a better upper middle class and has much better domestic talent and more continuity, the Israeli league has more and better American imports; the ABA teams tend to play in a more structured style while the Israeli league is the closest thing to the NBA playing style in Europe (or the D-League playing style), as teams rely on American players and there's a huge roster turnover season over season. For example, the team that finished last this season had a roster with Sundiata Gaines (a guy with over 100 NBA games and a couple of All-SEC selections), Roscoe Smith (who won the national championship with UConn and D-League standout), Terrico White (SEC rookie of the year and the 36th pick in the 2010 draft), Michel Watt (a former MAC POY who was briefly on the Warriors roster), Fuquan Edwin (Big East all-team and DPOY, a couple of NBA training camps), and Ivan Aska (who played for those Murray St teams with Isaiah Canaan that made the tournament). These guys plus a couple of veteran Israeli players would make this team contender to the NCAA title on physicality, experience and athleticism alone, even all of them playing as seniors would be dangerous. They finished last in the Israeli league because pretty much every team has this type of roster -D-League stalwarts, 2nd round picks, SL and training camp warriors- and a lot depends on the chemistry they're able to create. I'd say the Israeli league has more individual talent in the starting 5s, the ABA has better teams at the top, and Maccabi in a normal year is on a different level.

Anyway, as Mustinjo says above, league level isn't that relevant of a factor. Players play for clubs, not for leagues, and that's the primary factor on their role and production. Trying to assess European based prospects on a statistical base is a lost cause because it's all about the circumstances.

To me there's a gigantic gap between Bender and Zizic, even if not right now in terms of putting up boxscore stats. It's not that Bender is more versatile, it's that he's elite at those things. Bender's shooting is extremely good for a 7 footer his age - I'm not sure I've ever seen a 17/18 years old 7 footer with better 3pt shooting. Durant. Perhaps Ryan Anderson, but he's not quite the same height and he had a shorter 3 point line - his fresh year was pre 2008, so quite a bit shorter. I'd be willing to bet none of the current shooting big men in the NBA were already as advanced as Bender is at 18. Bender's passing is probably at the very top I've ever seen for a big man his age. And his defense was the thing that impressed me more since the first times I saw him playing. I've seen plenty of young 7fters but none with Bender's ability to play so low to the floor and twitch his hips. He has that Kirilenko/Bobby Jones body type with 4 additional inches but he manages to sit lower and move his feet and change his hips faster than them. And then he can do everything Zizic does. At the same level - Zizic and Bender actually played together in the FIBA U18 not long ago, and often at the same position, even though Bender was basically a year younger - Bender had better shot-blocking numbers. Zizic can run the floor, but Bender can do it faster. Zizic has slightly better rebounding rate, but only because of the offensive rebounding (Bender played farther from the basket), Bender had a higher rate on the defensive board. Bender is just a guy who impacts the game on a different level, especially on defense and with his combo of passing and shooting.

You may have good reason to say these things, but right now they're not reflected on the statsheet. For his reputation as a point forward, Bender is a surprisingly bad 15th on his own team in Assist %. I know you were referring to their U18 rebounding stats, but in their leagues this year Bender wasn't close to Zizic on defensive boards or offensive. Bender doesn't approach Zizic's success drawing fouls this year. Bender has a Usage %/FGA creation problem, which is the #1 difference between him and Porzingis at the same age. For his other weaknesses the thing that stands out about 13-14 Porzingis is he was showing his future volume scoring upside by already rating 2nd among real players in Usage, FGA/40 and Pts/40 on the team. Bender is 17th on his team in Usage, 14th in FGA/40 and 13th in Pts/40. Right now Bender's offensive game is taking spot up 3s and nothing else Cleveland Channing Frye style, which doesn't have to be the case even for an 18 year old prospect

Yeah, I do think shot-creation is Bender's main weakness. Those stats are meaningless though, they're all about usage/role (and rebounding wise, playing the 5 vs playing the 3/4).

It's not just about being 18 years old, it's the combination of age and team. How many players at a similar age were playing more minutes/having a bigger role for a club like Maccabi? Among current NBAers, can't think of any, except maybe Rubio, if one counts that era Joventut, but Rubio had the advantage of being a homegrown player. Most players that age are either playing for the youth teams or out on loan at lower level clubs. Even though Maccabi was horrible, they still had a roster of big salaries and big reputations (within the European context). Their bad season made it even harder for Bender to get a bigger role, because the next game was always the most important one. The last thing a coach in the hot seat is going to do is to turn to a 17 years old kid in his first season at the club, even if it might help him win games later in the season - doesn't really matter when you might be out of a job next weekend.

Go back a year - Bender averaged 13.9 FGA/40minutes and 3.6FTA/40, already in pro team and playing at 16/17 years old. That season in the Euroleague Junior, he averaged 25.8 FGA/40 and 8.5 FTA/40. Now, that's high usage. At the U18 championships, his FGA per minute are similar to Porzingis (15.9 for Bender, 15.4 for Porzingis) but he had 5 fta/40 vs 2fta/40 for Porzingis. So when one starts comparing what is actually comparable, those huge disparities vanish.

That said, shot-creation is the area where Bender is weaker (although not relatively to Zizic). He's always lacked those scoring instincts to look for his shot and a reliable pull-up; still he's played a big role offensively for his teams except last season, when he played basically no role at all. If he had played for Cibona last season, I bet you wouldn't see much difference on his usage stats relatively to Zizic - hence why I keep saying evaluating international stats through stats is meaningless at best and misleading at worst; even when stats get something right, it's purely by happenstance.

[pohani komarac]

How much tougher is the competition in the Israeli league than the Adriatic league?

Because comparing Ante Zizic at the same age last year, Zizic comes out more productive. 19/9 per 40 compared to Bender's 15/8. Comparable shot-blocking. They have essentially the same measurables (same standing reach, similar wingspans)

Israeli league is not tougher, but is competition in club. If Bender played for Cibona he would be their leader like Zizic was. When they played togheter, Bender was main player, not Zizic. And btw, Zizic is almost year older then Bender

[Slartibartfast]

It's not just about being 18 years old, it's the combination of age and team. How many players at a similar age were playing more minutes/having a bigger role for a club like Maccabi? Among current NBAers, can't think of any, except maybe Rubio, if one counts that era Joventut, but Rubio had the advantage of being a homegrown player. Most players that age are either playing for the youth teams or out on loan at lower level clubs. Even though Maccabi was horrible, they still had a roster of big salaries and big reputations (within the European context). Their bad season made it even harder for Bender to get a bigger role, because the next game was always the most important one. The last thing a coach in the hot seat is going to do is to turn to a 17 years old kid in his first season at the club, even if it might help him win games later in the season - doesn't really matter when you might be out of a job next weekend.

Go back a year - Bender averaged 13.9 FGA/40minutes and 3.6FTA/40, already in pro team and playing at 16/17 years old. That season in the Euroleague Junior, he averaged 25.8 FGA/40 and 8.5 FTA/40. Now, that's high usage. At the U18 championships, his FGA per minute are similar to Porzingis (15.9 for Bender, 15.4 for Porzingis) but he had 5 fta/40 vs 2fta/40 for Porzingis. So when one starts comparing what is actually comparable, those huge disparities vanish.

That said, shot-creation is the area where Bender is weaker (although not relatively to Zizic). He's always lacked those scoring instincts to look for his shot and a reliable pull-up; still he's played a big role offensively for his teams except last season, when he played basically no role at all. If he had played for Cibona last season, I bet you wouldn't see much difference on his usage stats relatively to Zizic - hence why I keep saying evaluating international stats through stats is meaningless at best and misleading at worst; even when stats get something right, it's purely by happenstance.

But could it be that the U18 championships aren't a great measure of Bender's pro-ready skills? I'm a complete novice when it comes to the basketball world outside the US, but the footage I've seen of Bender in the youth games has been free-flowing, helter-skelter, and the Maccabi stuff more conventional half-court basketball.

Getting more usage in the latter setting would require him to either attack more as a 3/4 which he doesn't seem to have the toolkit to do, or take advantage of his quickness and skill advantage at the 5, which he seems too light to do.

You said earlier that Bender can do everything Zizic can do, but I haven't seen the capacity to attack the paint with physicality that allows Zizic to put up the bigger numbers.

[Mirotic12]

You may have good reason to say these things, but right now they're not reflected on the statsheet. For his reputation as a point forward, Bender is a surprisingly bad 15th on his own team in Assist %. I know you were referring to their U18 rebounding stats, but in their leagues this year Bender wasn't close to Zizic on defensive boards or offensive. Bender doesn't approach Zizic's success drawing fouls this year. Bender has a Usage %/FGA creation problem, which is the #1 difference between him and Porzingis at the same age. For his other weaknesses the thing that stands out about 13-14 Porzingis is he was showing his future volume scoring upside by already rating 2nd among real players in Usage, FGA/40 and Pts/40 on the team. Bender is 17th on his team in Usage, 14th in FGA/40 and 13th in Pts/40. Right now Bender's offensive game is taking spot up 3s and nothing else Cleveland Channing Frye style, which doesn't have to be the case even for an 18 year old prospect

This has been discussed quite a bit already in this thread. The whole "point forward" thing is a joke and is never meant to be real or serious. It's a 100% pure gimmick marketing thing from agents. Saric has been called a "point forward" almost endlessly in the US, and he was never a point forward, he is not a point forward, and he will never be a point forward.

The same exact thing is true of Bender. He has been constantly called a "point forward" by NBA related marketing (mostly through these gimmicks of agents), but he has never actually been a point forward. He is not a point forward now, and he is never going to be a point forward.

These players are not point forwards in any existence other than marketing gimmicks. In reality, they have no remote relation to anything in being a point forward.

But could it be that the U18 championships aren't a great measure of Bender's pro-ready skills? I'm a complete novice when it comes to the basketball world outside the US, but the footage I've seen of Bender in the youth games has been free-flowing, helter-skelter, and the Maccabi stuff more conventional half-court basketball.

Getting more usage in the latter setting would require him to either attack more as a 3/4 which he doesn't seem to have the toolkit to do, or take advantage of his quickness and skill advantage at the 5, which he seems too light to do.

You said earlier that Bender can do everything Zizic can do, but I haven't seen the capacity to attack the paint with physicality that allows Zizic to put up the bigger numbers.

The Under-18 level is not much of a measure of anything, as it related to professional levels in Europe. Many of the players in the Under-18 will never make a pro career in their country's top domestic league.

As far as the playing style, for most country's teams, it is more about getting to learn where the young prospects are at, rather than playing serious basketball. Only a certain number of countries play those youth tournaments to win (like Lithuania, Latvia, Spain, France, Croatia, Serbia, Turkey, Bosnia), the rest of the countries basically look at it as nothing more than a way to evaluate their players. So serious basketball play style is not much of a care in most games.

Maccabi is not a half court style team for the most part. Although they do like to post up centers, last season they did not have that as a weapon, as that is not anything Mbakwe is all that good at. Maccabi is a pretty typical NBA style team actually. They play fast, they like to run, they play a lot of small ball, and they like to use multiple guys that are like 6-6 to 6-9 that are long and athletic and can play multiple positions. They also like to use wings as power forwards, and small ball centers that can cover on switches. They play very similar to a lot of NBA teams.

[Novocaine]

But could it be that the U18 championships aren't a great measure of Bender's pro-ready skills? I'm a complete novice when it comes to the basketball world outside the US, but the footage I've seen of Bender in the youth games has been free-flowing, helter-skelter, and the Maccabi stuff more conventional half-court basketball.

Getting more usage in the latter setting would require him to either attack more as a 3/4 which he doesn't seem to have the toolkit to do, or take advantage of his quickness and skill advantage at the 5, which he seems too light to do.

You said earlier that Bender can do everything Zizic can do, but I haven't seen the capacity to attack the paint with physicality that allows Zizic to put up the bigger numbers.

Well, isn't that always the case with youth basketball, be it international or college? Few players have pro-ready skills at 16 years old, or even 18. The pro game is a different beast altogether. Personally I don't put much stock on what is immediately translatable, I'm more interested on the skillset base, on what will eventually be translatable assuming a reasonable development. Let's say, his rebounding is something that hasn't translated to the pro-game, as Mustafa pointed out. But that's mostly because he's too light now and bigger more experienced guys throw him out of balance with their hips. But he's quick leaving the floor, has good hands and is competitive, which is why his rebounding was good when he didn't have to compete with much heavier players. So when that strength disadvantage erodes, one should expect his rebounding to go back to the youth tournaments level, because he has those skills.

If I wanted to increase Bender's usage right now, I'd use him very much in the same way he was used in youth teams - pick'n'pops, isolate him above the elbow or at the wing against big men and let him use his face-up game, the occasional post-up with "flashes" to the high post and play transition offense whenever possible. In a team like Cibona, or Sevilla, he could have much higher usage rate by merely featuring him on this kind of plays, you wouldn't even be force feeding him.

Not sure I understand, but I think Bender has a huge advantage with both quickness and skill at the 5. This obviously depends on the individual match-up, but Bender's face-up game is strong enough to get something out a 1x1 vs a typical center if you get him on a triple-threat position. Either an assist or a good shot. The problem here is him being overwhelmed physically on the other side, but that's a temporary one.

I'm not sure what you mean by attacking the paint with physicality. Zizic offensive game is very basic: pick'n'rolls, offensive rebounds, handoffs, rim running on transition and postups. As the rolling men, I think Bender can be just as effective, if that's how he's used, with the advantage of being a much better option as a secondary passer. The rebounding is mostly about about physical development - and Bender will never be an inside player. Posting up, I suppose Zizic is better, but his post game is very rudimentary. It works in the ABA because he'd often have an athletic superiority over his opponent and was able to get position deep down low. But his post game is pro-ready for the ABA, within a NBA contexts, it's as pro-ready as Bender's.