Denzel Valentine

[Alexander]

We have 4 SGs under contract, but KCP/Meeks/Bullock only have 1 yr left on their deals. SG is actually the least secure position. Adding one on a rookie deal for the next 4 yrs who has potential to be better than all our current ones (and can contribute right away being a senior and fills both needs of shooting/playmaking), he makes the most sense of all the options at 18.

That might be how SVG thinks, as I've listened to some interviews and podcasts with him where he has a more holistic view of player valuation and looks at their contract length and size, preferring longer contracts.
I'm not sure I agree that Valentine has more potential than KCP, who is only a year and a half older. If you think this team needs a second ballhandler more than a primary defender, then maybe.

I'm probably just a little harsh on Valentine because we have so much tape on him and his weaknesses are more obvious.

What weaknesses are you referring to? He's one of the most complete players in the draft.

We have about the same amount of film on KCP as a Piston and his weaknesses are way more obvious than Valentines. The level of competition is different, but KCP has never shown this type of shooting/playmaking potential even in college. Skill-wise there's no comparison to me. Valentine is a year younger and already more developed so he definitely has more potential.

KCP has better defensive potential because of his athleticism, but that's it. And imo Valentine's size/length/IQ and ability to guard bigger 2s and some 3s makes it possible he could even end up the better defender. He might lack his speed, but doesn't lack his will/determination, which is a big part of KCPs success on defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTZgn3NddhI
He put up great numbers but there was always something off about the ~eye test~ with me. Namely, I fear he's a PG trapped in a SGs body with a SFs athleticism, and that while he's well-rounded, he may need to be ball-dominant and and can't be plugged into just any system.

[Spider156]

That might be how SVG thinks, as I've listened to some interviews and podcasts with him where he has a more holistic view of player valuation and looks at their contract length and size, preferring longer contracts.
I'm not sure I agree that Valentine has more potential than KCP, who is only a year and a half older. If you think this team needs a second ballhandler more than a primary defender, then maybe.

I'm probably just a little harsh on Valentine because we have so much tape on him and his weaknesses are more obvious.

What weaknesses are you referring to? He's one of the most complete players in the draft.

We have about the same amount of film on KCP as a Piston and his weaknesses are way more obvious than Valentines. The level of competition is different, but KCP has never shown this type of shooting/playmaking potential even in college. Skill-wise there's no comparison to me. Valentine is a year younger and already more developed so he definitely has more potential.

KCP has better defensive potential because of his athleticism, but that's it. And imo Valentine's size/length/IQ and ability to guard bigger 2s and some 3s makes it possible he could even end up the better defender. He might lack his speed, but doesn't lack his will/determination, which is a big part of KCPs success on defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTZgn3NddhI
He put up great numbers but there was always something off about the ~eye test~ with me. Namely, I fear he's a PG trapped in a SGs body with a SFs athleticism, and that while he's well-rounded, he may need to be ball-dominant and and can't be plugged into just any system.

This is a pretty good opinion of him. I think that shot of his is pretty good though and I think he could be lethal coming off the bench. His defense looks like it'll always be a problem but I think SVG can definitely coach him how to defend. It's just hard considering we need a PG that can defend badly. I think ultimately we'll probably sign a PG in FA and draft a PF/C instead if they fall to us. Valentine's defense is pretty bad. He's looks clueless and the bad part is his effort sucks.

[Todd3]

Maybe I'm totally wrong here but on draftnet they compare him with Greivis Vasquez and I can see it. Maybe a better shooter but both are big guards can play-make and shoot the 3 not much on the defensive side. Someone tell me if I;m totally wrong here.

In the sense that they both can shoot and playmake, yeah, but so can a lot of players. Not a lot of elite shooters that can do both and rebound though. Vasquez is a career 35% 3pt shooter and was only 33% in college and Valentine has elite shooting potential. That's a big difference. A guy that can command that much attention from the perimeter on/off the ball and make plays off the dribble is extremely tough to defend. If you're just an average shooter though it's completely different. Guys sag off you and crowd the paint and passing lanes and you can become more of a liability than asset. As there's no room to dribble or pass and you become a turnover machine and/or forced to take a bunch of jumpshots you're not good at. Same reason I'm not interested in Lin.

With Valentine you don't have that issue. His shooting will space the court for both he and Reggie to make easy plays off the dribble for a change, instead of the 'packed paint/surrounded by bad shooters struggle' Reggie dealt with this year. Players like Valentine just make the game easier for everyone.

[mattao313]

Maybe I'm totally wrong here but on draftnet they compare him with Greivis Vasquez and I can see it. Maybe a better shooter but both are big guards can play-make and shoot the 3 not much on the defensive side. Someone tell me if I;m totally wrong here.

In the sense that they both can shoot and playmake, yeah, but so can a lot of players. Not a lot of elite shooters that can do both and rebound though. Vasquez is a career 35% 3pt shooter and was only 33% in college and Valentine has elite shooting potential. That's a big difference. A guy that can command that much attention from the perimeter on/off the ball and make plays off the dribble is extremely tough to defend. If you're just an average shooter though it's completely different. Guys sag off you and crowd the paint and passing lanes and you can become more of a liability than asset. As there's no room to dribble or pass and you become a turnover machine and/or forced to take a bunch of jumpshots you're not good at. Same reason I'm not interested in Lin.

With Valentine you don't have that issue. His shooting will space the court for both he and Reggie to make easy plays off the dribble for a change, instead of the 'packed paint/surrounded by bad shooters struggle' Reggie dealt with this year. Players like Valentine just make the game easier for everyone.

Vasquez shot 37% in Toronto two seasons in a row on a sizable volume so its not like teams don't respect him as a shooter.

[mattao313]

Just look at these Vasquez highlights and tell me they don't look similar

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de3ATHjLSeE[/youtube]

[MotownMadness]

I can definitely see some similarities and wouldn't call it a bad comparison. Big difference between the two right now though is Valentine seems more of a guy that can carry a offense and just looks a bit more alpha type (having a hard time finding a word for what I'm trying to say).

[BadMofoPimp]

I can definitely see some similarities and wouldn't call it a bad comparison. Big difference between the two right now though is Valentine seems more of a guy that can carry a offense and just looks a bit more alpha type (having a hard time finding a word for what I'm trying to say).

People thought Shabbazz Muhammud could carry an offense and was more of an Alpha type.

[MotownMadness]

I can definitely see some similarities and wouldn't call it a bad comparison. Big difference between the two right now though is Valentine seems more of a guy that can carry a offense and just looks a bit more alpha type (having a hard time finding a word for what I'm trying to say).

People thought Shabbazz Muhammud could carry an offense and was more of an Alpha type.

I'm kinda failing to see how that is relevant at all

[Warspite]

UofM fans being salty.

Had he went to UofM there would be a thread about trading up to try to get him.

[Alexander]

UofM fans being salty.

Had he went to UofM there would be a thread about trading up to try to get him.

That's a leap.
I went to U of M. I'm not enamored with Caris and don't even want to spend a second on him, Burke is a washout and I was okay with passing on him, THJ is extremely one-dimensional and I didn't consider him a first rounder, Stauskas isn't a rotation player, and I don't think McGary will ever be fortunate enough to put it all together.

Valentine is suffering from a surplus of exposure, because he's a four year player at a local, nationally relevant program that played a lot of games. He's a known commodity and that's not as sexy as someone mysterious with more intrigue and supposed *potential* or ~room to grow~.

Presupposing bias isn't the most effective way to fight it.

[Todd3]

Just look at these Vasquez highlights and tell me they don't look similar

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de3ATHjLSeE[/youtube]

I agree their games are similar (especially as playmakers), but that's not a bad thing. Vasquez averaged 9 assists one year and is a career 7 apg per36. I just think Valentine projects as a much better shooter, and it's his shooting that is most appealing to me. So if he can be that elite shooter we need and combine it with Vasquez' playmaking and better rebounding, that's a different player and exactly what we need.

If Vasquez had ever shown elite shooting ability for more than a few seasons, he'd be a great fit as our backup PG in FA , but I just don't trust his shooting when he's had just as many 25-30% years from 3 too. Which Vasquez would we be getting, ya know?

Valentine projects as a better shooter and that's the difference.

[Todd3]

That might be how SVG thinks, as I've listened to some interviews and podcasts with him where he has a more holistic view of player valuation and looks at their contract length and size, preferring longer contracts.
I'm not sure I agree that Valentine has more potential than KCP, who is only a year and a half older. If you think this team needs a second ballhandler more than a primary defender, then maybe.

I'm probably just a little harsh on Valentine because we have so much tape on him and his weaknesses are more obvious.

What weaknesses are you referring to? He's one of the most complete players in the draft.

We have about the same amount of film on KCP as a Piston and his weaknesses are way more obvious than Valentines. The level of competition is different, but KCP has never shown this type of shooting/playmaking potential even in college. Skill-wise there's no comparison to me. Valentine is a year younger and already more developed so he definitely has more potential.

KCP has better defensive potential because of his athleticism, but that's it. And imo Valentine's size/length/IQ and ability to guard bigger 2s and some 3s makes it possible he could even end up the better defender. He might lack his speed, but doesn't lack his will/determination, which is a big part of KCPs success on defense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTZgn3NddhI
He put up great numbers but there was always something off about the ~eye test~ with me. Namely, I fear he's a PG trapped in a SGs body with a SFs athleticism, and that while he's well-rounded, he may need to be ball-dominant and and can't be plugged into just any system.

I think that vid is misleading. A lot of those plays they chose to highlight were with MSU up big. How can he judge a players decision making up 15 with 2 min left? Or judge effort on defense up 20? All players go for the homerun plays during garbage time and slack off on defense with a huge lead. That's just part of the game. In order to judge decision making/defense, you have to look at plays when the game is close, and if Valentine played that way when games were close they never would've gotten those 15-20 pt leads and won so many games.

I'm not trying to make it sound like he has no weakness, I just think that vid isn't really accurate.

[Manocad]

UofM fans being salty.

Had he went to UofM there would be a thread about trading up to try to get him.

You mean the one Michigan fan who commented?

The Pistons won't need to trade up to get Valentine. His health issues are going to drop his position. If the Pistons want him he'll be there.

By the way, had he GONE to UM he would have better grammar skills than you.

Sorry man, you brought that on yourself.

[DBC10]

If his knee issues flare up like they did in some part of State and that degenerative knee issue is true, then we'll likely pass on him even with him still there.

Every State fan knows that Valentine was a great player during college, but his lack of speed and average athleticism hurts him badly on both ends. Whoever drafts him will have to allow him to adjust to the NBA speed level for at least 20+ games.

[Warspite]

UofM fans being salty.

Had he went to UofM there would be a thread about trading up to try to get him.

That's a leap.
I went to U of M. I'm not enamored with Caris and don't even want to spend a second on him, Burke is a washout and I was okay with passing on him, THJ is extremely one-dimensional and I didn't consider him a first rounder, Stauskas isn't a rotation player, and I don't think McGary will ever be fortunate enough to put it all together.

Valentine is suffering from a surplus of exposure, because he's a four year player at a local, nationally relevant program that played a lot of games. He's a known commodity and that's not as sexy as someone mysterious with more intrigue and supposed *potential* or ~room to grow~.

Presupposing bias isn't the most effective way to fight it.

Everything in your post is correct with hindsight but its a complete falsehood if we look at the history of this board.

U of M fans wrote on this board

Burke was considered the best PG since CP3. He was the missing piece and this board went ballistic when he was passed over.

Staukus was better than Klay Thompson will ever be.

MCGary was being compared to Hakeem.

LaVert after his freshman yr was going to be a top 5 pick.

Uof M fans for the most part wear the biggest homer glasses and see everything that is Green as bad and everything that is maize as super human.

My point still stands. If Valentine had went to Ann Arbor he would be considered a lottery pick on this board but since he went to MSU he is being degraded and attacked in this thread for things that are simply not true.

I have watched him for 4 yrs and although I don't see him as being a star or even as a full time starter I do think that he could be a 6MOY type player who can play multiple positions and spell your PG, SG and sometimes SF in a small ball lineup. I certainly think he will be able to play very good defense vs 2nd unit players.

There are valid reasons you may not like Valentine but I haven't read any of them in this thread.