'15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Dr Positivity]

Probably voting

1. Lebron
2. Kawhi
3. Durant
4. Westbrook
5. Green

Between Curry's missed games and coming back most likely health reasons a few levels down, too much of a tainted playoff run to pick him over those five atm

[Krodis]

I'm still not sure how to weight LeBron vs Curry, and I'm still really torn on 4/5/6 between Durant/Kawhi/Draymond. I guess that means I have #3 figured out though, which is nice.

[JLei]

Thoughts on his defense in the Finals?

I don't know that this was his best defensive series (usually think 13 ECF and Finals), but this was probably the most spectacular and stat-stuffing. 24% DRB rate, 5.9 stocks, 5.9% BLK rate, crazy highlight blocks om Steph and of course the double coverage chasedown on Iggy to save the game.

Not really comfortable saying anything definitive until I watch some tape, but what I'll say: this *felt* like one of the most dominating defensive performances I've seen. Aside from Green springing free for a bunch of open treys in G7, switching LeBron onto Dray in game 3 was the adjustment that won them the series. The Warriors just become another offense when Green isn't causing havoc in the lane, and LeBron switching on Steph became a nightmare scenario for GSW.

It's easy to dismiss the blocks on Steph as "highlight" plays, which we often exercise caution on, but I didn't see them that way. He absolutely massacred Steph's confidence, to the point Curry was refusing to drive the lane for most of the back end of the series. He almost gave up on that play in G7 before the block even happened. Curry couldn't take LeBron off the dribble, and he was so afraid of James flying in off-ball that he was staying out of the paint and pump-faking ghosts when he did go in. That's one of the most underrated aspects of this series IMO, Curry's below the arc game completely died, and it's the main reason he (and GSW) didn't score for like the last 7 minutes of this game.

That's the right word. Because the whole court was feeling his presence. He neutralized the best offensive team in the league entire attack by being on Draymond (fantastic adjustment by Dray and Kerr to have him actually shoot in Game 7). Passes were made with so much more arc due to fear of Bron steals and gave time for his teammates to recover. Klay and Curry drove into the lane looking over their shoulder half the time. It's why it looked like those 2 had to make all their 3's or they weren't gonna score.

He still made mistakes and wasn't sharp 100% of the time (still had to lead the series in scoring and assists). But the Warriors felt his presence. It was like the ah **** moment anytime he came near you. That Klay possession at the end of game 7 where he didn't even to try to shoot even though they needed a quick 3 was perfect example of it.

[Doctor MJ]

Okay so, now is the time if you've been participating and have not yet formally received a vote to ask. I'll plan to make a semi-final list tomorrow.

In a week I'll put up the formal Voting thread. As a reminder, these are the categories:

POY
OPOY
DPOY
ROY
MIP
6MOY
COY
EOY

If you vote you must give a ballot for at least POY, OPOY, and DPOY.
All valid ballots for a given award must have a complete ballot, which will mean a Top 5 for POY, but Top 3 for every other award.

There is philosophical leeway in these awards, but they are based on what was accomplished THIS season. So guys like Kobe in '04 or Wilt in '69 really shouldn't be at the top of the list based on what they might have done.

[kayess]

Thoughts on his defense in the Finals?

I don't know that this was his best defensive series (usually think 13 ECF and Finals), but this was probably the most spectacular and stat-stuffing. 24% DRB rate, 5.9 stocks, 5.9% BLK rate, crazy highlight blocks om Steph and of course the double coverage chasedown on Iggy to save the game.

He definitely still had some lapses, but even in defense we see what makes LeBron truly special: he's in-between a perimeter player and a big.

As a "big": his blocks were more than just highlight reels, they were deterrents - right or not, seeing a LeBron chasedown block probably spooked the Warriors into missing bunnies at the room, petrified that LeBron would come out of nowhere to block a clean attempt, or outright erasing mistakes at the rim. Challenged quite a few shots at the rim that weren't blocks, too, but made the difference in game 5 as the Cavs were trying to hold on.

As a "small": He was a nightmare for Curry - shades of the 2011 ECF vs. Rose. Except this time there were no elite defenders behind him.

When you add in his "intangibles" - just bringing his effort and intensity to a level no one else could reach, and that's got to rev you up as a teammate.

I said in the LeBron thread that he could be a super Draymond on O as he ages - but in the Finals, he was maybe 90% of Draymond on D in addition to his O. Absolute madness.

[kayess]

Also, remember the "1 through 5" schtik we kind of grew tired of in Miami? When people would go back and forth about him only being able to stop the likes of Pau/Big Al/West for stretches?

He actually **** did it against GSW. Stopped Green from making plays (a la Durant in the WCF), and prevented Steph from getting too much when he was on him.

[HeartBreakKid]

I hope everyone doesn't make knee jerk reactions. I hope in a few days we can cool down and think about the POY decision more rationally.


I'm sill not entirely convinced that Curry was worse than James this season. What the post season told me about Curry was that he's not the GOAT or a top 5 player. It told me that James in his peak is better than Curry (James numbers were fantastic this post season run, but I think his younger self would have had an even crazier run if he were implanted into this season). I'm not entirely sure if Curry just missed shots he would normally make this post season because well he just missed (I mean the same thing happened to Durant, but Curry shot MUCH better than Durant to put things in perspective).


This post season and last years post season tells me that the Warriors play drop off quite a bit in the post season (last year they struggled against the Cavs and Grizzlies, they ended up beating them badly as the series grew because those two teams have no offensive flexibility or capability, thus adjustments are disproportionately useful against them).

This post season also tells me that Curry's post season play drops off a bit, but then again if it didn't, he would be the GOAT more or less. Curry was playing so far above everyone during the RS, that even if his play went down he would go from a super mvp to just a normal mvp - is normal MVP caliber post season play good enough to fully disqualify him from POY? I'm not entirely sure.

Curry got out played by James, Irving and Green this series - but to be fair he would probably out play Irving in most given series, and James/Green aren't scrubs.

Every other series? Curry was the best player during the Portland series, even with his injuries I thought. I thought Curry was the best player in the Thunder series, and the Thunder have two top 5 caliber players - at the very least he was even with Russell Westbrook, and Westbrook is a lock for top 3 for the majority of people who post in this thread.

If Curry was the absolute best player in the RS by a lot, and his post season run he regresses to Russell Westbrook level - doesn't that accumulate to arguably the best player overall this year? I think that it is a possibility that we as voters should not dismiss.

[JLei]

I hope everyone doesn't make knee jerk reactions. I hope in a few days we can cool down and think about the POY decision more rationally.


I'm sill not entirely convinced that Curry was worse than James this season. What the post season told me about Curry was that he's not the GOAT or a top 5 player. It told me that James in his peak is better than Curry (James numbers were fantastic this post season run, but I think his younger self would have had an even crazier run if he were implanted into this season). I'm not entirely sure if Curry just missed shots he would normally make this post season because well he just missed (I mean the same thing happened to Durant, but Curry shot MUCH better than Durant to put things in perspective).


This post season and last years post season tells me that the Warriors play drop off quite a bit in the post season (last year they struggled against the Cavs and Grizzlies, they ended up beating them badly as the series grew because those two teams have no offensive flexibility or capability, thus adjustments are disproportionately useful against them).

This post season also tells me that Curry's post season play drops off a bit, but then again if it didn't, he would be the GOAT more or less. Curry was playing so far above everyone during the RS, that even if his play went down he would go from a super mvp to just a normal mvp - is normal MVP caliber post season play good enough to fully disqualify him from POY? I'm not entirely sure.

Curry got out played by James, Irving and Green this series - but to be fair he would probably out play Irving in most given series, and James/Green aren't scrubs.

Every other series? Curry was the best player during the Portland series, even with his injuries I thought. I thought Curry was the best player in the Thunder series, and the Thunder have two top 5 caliber players - at the very least he was even with Russell Westbrook, and Westbrook is a lock for top 3 for the majority of people who post in this thread.

If Curry was the absolute best player in the RS by a lot, and his post season run he regresses to Russell Westbrook level - doesn't that accumulate to arguably the best player overall this year? I think that it is a [b]possibility that we as voters should not dismiss.[/b]

How you perform in the playoffs is probably most relevant to your team winning in the playoffs. It matters more. Small sample size and all (and if your team is getting deep, it isn't such a small sample). The amount of meaningful minutes played in playoffs > anything played in the regular season.

If the goal in the NBA is to win a championship what you do to achieve that is the most meaningful.

It's why pretty much every POY goes to the best player on the team holding this trophy at the end.

[HeartBreakKid]

I hope everyone doesn't make knee jerk reactions. I hope in a few days we can cool down and think about the POY decision more rationally.


I'm sill not entirely convinced that Curry was worse than James this season. What the post season told me about Curry was that he's not the GOAT or a top 5 player. It told me that James in his peak is better than Curry (James numbers were fantastic this post season run, but I think his younger self would have had an even crazier run if he were implanted into this season). I'm not entirely sure if Curry just missed shots he would normally make this post season because well he just missed (I mean the same thing happened to Durant, but Curry shot MUCH better than Durant to put things in perspective).


This post season and last years post season tells me that the Warriors play drop off quite a bit in the post season (last year they struggled against the Cavs and Grizzlies, they ended up beating them badly as the series grew because those two teams have no offensive flexibility or capability, thus adjustments are disproportionately useful against them).

This post season also tells me that Curry's post season play drops off a bit, but then again if it didn't, he would be the GOAT more or less. Curry was playing so far above everyone during the RS, that even if his play went down he would go from a super mvp to just a normal mvp - is normal MVP caliber post season play good enough to fully disqualify him from POY? I'm not entirely sure.

Curry got out played by James, Irving and Green this series - but to be fair he would probably out play Irving in most given series, and James/Green aren't scrubs.

Every other series? Curry was the best player during the Portland series, even with his injuries I thought. I thought Curry was the best player in the Thunder series, and the Thunder have two top 5 caliber players - at the very least he was even with Russell Westbrook, and Westbrook is a lock for top 3 for the majority of people who post in this thread.

If Curry was the absolute best player in the RS by a lot, and his post season run he regresses to Russell Westbrook level - doesn't that accumulate to arguably the best player overall this year? I think that it is a [b]possibility that we as voters should not dismiss.[/b]

How you perform in the playoffs is probably most relevant to your team winning in the playoffs. It matters more. Small sample size and all (and if your team is getting deep, it isn't such a small sample). The amount of meaningful minutes played in playoffs > anything played in the regular season.

If the goal in the NBA is to win a championship what you do to achieve that is the most meaningful.

It's why pretty much every POY goes to the best player on the team holding this trophy at the end.

It's also why I think the valuation of a lot of POY seasons aren't that good. There's a lot of winning bias. The idea that the best player wins the title every year, is really flawed, and most of the time probably not true. For instance, Kevin Garnett won POY in 2008, when that is one of his worse prime seasons(yet only has two POY in total), and he was probably the 4th best player in the league that year. Am I really going to give POY to James just because everyone else is due to him winning a title?

[Doctor MJ]

Okay, going back to poster/voter mode, lots of good thoughts from other people I'm thinking about.

I like that people have been urging others to hold off on making final decisions, but I actually at this point like giving some specific thoughts with the hope that I'll be challenged by others.

So, my rough draft top 5 POYs right now:

1. LeBron - I'll try to keep my mind open, but it's hard for me to see taking a stand against him here
2. Curry - Still my solid #2, and frankly still THE guy you start with if you want to build a team based on state-of-the-art strategies.
3. Kawhi - Here's where it gets shaky. Kawhi was ahead of everyone I'm putting below him after the RS. Why should it change?
4. Westbrook - Right now I'm going along with the belief that he's OKC's MVP.
5. Durant - So damn scary, it bothers me to have him this low.

Other contenders:

Draymond - I expect he'll be the one we're talking about the most, so I won't elaborate here
Paul - Top 5 worthy. No debate there. Just a question if he can actually be justified above competition.
Kyrie - Really doubt he makes my Top 5, but just seems logical to put him in the discussion.

Other quick thoughts on the other awards:

OPOY: I'll probably still give this one to Curry.
DPOY: Definitely feeling Kawhi here at the moment.
MIP & 6MOY: I'll have to think on these more, but Giannis & Iggy are the ones coming to mind
COY: Probably Kerr again for me. Hard to see a better case for others.
EOY: Buford is the one that comes to mind...but given they lost to the team that lost to the team that lost to the champ, going all in on Aldridge may not be look as rosy as we move forward.

[Doctor MJ]

5. Green

Between Curry's missed games and coming back most likely health reasons a few levels down, too much of a tainted playoff run to pick him over those five atm

I might as well start getting into this here:

The Warriors' playoff consisted of:

1st round: Garbage opponent
2nd round: Garbage opponent
3rd round: Team that destroyed Green and would have beaten Warriors if not for Curry & Klay being insane
4th round: Green gets suspended for doing more incredibly stupid stuff, which let's opponent get momentum that Green was helpless to stop once he returned

If you had Green as higher in the regular season I get keeping him ahead of Curry, and if you really, really, really penalize playoff injuries I get moving him ahead of Curry, but Green's playoff run was a major disappointment for me. The idea that I'd choose to build a team around him over probably any of the other guys mentioned in this POY conversation at this point seems crazy.

[Doctor MJ]

I might seriously have to have a top 7 or just a top 2.

I am with this 100%. I don't feel there's a clear cut Top 5, You put LeBron and Curry for the top 2, then it's a fierce debate between Chris Paul, KD, Westbrook, Kawhi. At the very least there's a Top 6, and if you like Draymond enough to give him just as much credit as Curry, there's a clear Top 7.

Feel free to list out your Top 7, but only the first 5 will get counted.

You have to give at least 5 though or I won't count it. I know it's tough. I'm in the same boat.

[Doctor MJ]

I dont think i could put both Thunder players ahead of him.

My instinct is in the other direction.

Watching the GSW vs OKC series, it was just impossible to imagine that Green was as good of an anchor as either Westbrook or Durant. I realize that's just a single series, but it's also not like we all weren't cautious about asserting Green was on their level ahead of time.

At this point I really just feel that if a team truly builds around Green, it's pretty simple how to make that team's strategy fall apart. Most teams won't be able to do that of course, but top contenders will.

[Doctor MJ]

Is it fair to assume that for next year, we absolutely cannot say anything conclusive about the player of the year until the playoffs are over?

Fixed that for ya, and yes.

[Texas Chuck]

I might seriously have to have a top 7 or just a top 2.

I am with this 100%. I don't feel there's a clear cut Top 5, You put LeBron and Curry for the top 2, then it's a fierce debate between Chris Paul, KD, Westbrook, Kawhi. At the very least there's a Top 6, and if you like Draymond enough to give him just as much credit as Curry, there's a clear Top 7.

Feel free to list out your Top 7, but only the first 5 will get counted.

You have to give at least 5 though or I won't count it. I know it's tough. I'm in the same boat.

understood Doc. It's going to be really tough, but that's good. It will force me to listen really carefully to other's arguments and take a very close look at each of these players again. But right now I honestly have no idea how to squeeze 3-7 into 3 spots.

[Doctor MJ]

Honestly, this board is looking mighty foolish for giving Curry the POY last season.... I knew it was terrible. People here honestly thought he was better than LeBron, huh?

Please don't come in here just to bash the work other people did and assert your superiority.

People involved in these projects put themselves out there and others benefit from the thoughts and discussion generated. Last thing we need is people here feeling self-conscious when MVP voters' ballots have crazier opinions on display.

[Dr Positivity]

Green did not look that good against OKC, but as the team's most important defender and a floor spacer so as always he still played a big part in making the Warriors what they are in the series and for example stuff like Durant's shooting struggles is connected to his help defense, and single handily forcing OKC to taking Kanter out of the series and use Durant to PF lineups, changed the series, for good or bad.

[Texas Chuck]

I dont think i could put both Thunder players ahead of him.

My instinct is in the other direction.

Watching the GSW vs OKC series, it was just impossible to imagine that Green was as good of an anchor as either Westbrook or Durant. I realize that's just a single series, but it's also not like we all weren't cautious about asserting Green was on their level ahead of time.

At this point I really just feel that if a team truly builds around Green, it's pretty simple how to make that team's strategy fall apart. Most teams won't be able to do that of course, but top contenders will.

I'd agree that I'd rather build around Durant than Green, but I don't think I'll personally be basing my POY ballot on that criteria. I think Draymond has a lot of that KG quality of you can build a really nice team around him, but with a lower ceiling than several of his contemporaries. But put either guy on a team with a high baseline of talent, and the ceiling feels near limitless with their abilities to shape their games to their talented teammates. You fault Lebron in part for forcing so much adjustment to him---I'd think you'd thus value Green for the opposite?

[JLei]

Okay, going back to poster/voter mode, lots of good thoughts from other people I'm thinking about.

I like that people have been urging others to hold off on making final decisions, but I actually at this point like giving some specific thoughts with the hope that I'll be challenged by others.

So, my rough draft top 5 POYs right now:

1. LeBron - I'll try to keep my mind open, but it's hard for me to see taking a stand against him here
2. Curry - Still my solid #2, and frankly still THE guy you start with if you want to build a team based on state-of-the-art strategies.
3. Kawhi - Here's where it gets shaky. Kawhi was ahead of everyone I'm putting below him after the RS. Why should it change?
4. Westbrook - Right now I'm going along with the belief that he's OKC's MVP.
5. Durant - So damn scary, it bothers me to have him this low.

Other contenders:

Draymond - I expect he'll be the one we're talking about the most, so I won't elaborate here
Paul - Top 5 worthy. No debate there. Just a question if he can actually be justified above competition.
Kyrie - Really doubt he makes my Top 5, but just seems logical to put him in the discussion.

Other quick thoughts on the other awards:

OPOY: I'll probably still give this one to Curry.
DPOY: Definitely feeling Kawhi here at the moment.
MIP & 6MOY: I'll have to think on these more, but Giannis & Iggy are the ones coming to mind
COY: Probably Kerr again for me. Hard to see a better case for others.
EOY: Buford is the one that comes to mind...but given they lost to the team that lost to the team that lost to the champ, going all in on Aldridge may not be look as rosy as we move forward.

In bold might be right. But I think we need to sit back for a bit. Because state of the art defensive strategies to deal with him have just started to form. We may look back in a few years and say his utter sheer dominance was a flash in the pan because no one knew how to deal with him yet.

We've just seen him handily struggle in back to back series. Especially against the Cavs which I think in theory we all agreed was a tremendously good matchup for him. Lue's scheme broke him. Or maybe he just missed shots. But even this small sample size is very meaningful if you watched the games and saw him struggle and play like ****.

I'm comfortable with Bron. How you build around him is battle tested. He may not have the ceiling of Curry offensively but he's a 2 way anchor as we saw and he can always do what he can do against anybody.

And in bold is likely right. But I'm reevaluating Curry even though like all of us I saw what he did to the league these last 2 years. Because he has weaknesses as I've ALWAYS pointed them out. He was exposed on both ends by a team that in theory he had an amazing matchup against.

[Doctor MJ]

Kerr seemed a little out of today. Playing Ezeli and Varajao any minutes in the second was ridiculous.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/warriorsworld/status/744720795570626561[/tweet]

Ezeli is terrible. Some team is apparently going to make a very big mistake this summer.

No he's not terrible. He's a young inexperienced player who wasn't given room to spread his wings on a team with such high aspirations. LeBron merely took advantage of him not being ready for the moment.

Well I think there's definitely something to the dichotomy between Kerr's Strength in Numbers philosophy and then starting Game 7 of the Finals with a guy he clearly never had faith in.

On the most basic level, this is a reminder that the playoffs are a war of attrition and a healthy Warriors team might have led to a different story.

As for where Ezeli goes from here, we'll just see. It's entirely possible that he'll eventually "click". But right now he's a fascinating case of someone whose regular IQ is fine but who clearly has sub-average mental abilities when it comes to the details of being an athlete.

I tend to see Kerr as a guy who builds self-efficacy in his players and thus makes them look even higher BBIQ than they are, but to this point, Ezeli is a case study in how even a coach extremely engaged with his role players seems to get fed up with low BBIQ guys.

When we think of things like why Derek Fisher kept getting big minutes in important games all throughout his career, to me it just comes down to a coach feeling a hell of a lot more comfortable knowing what a player is going to give him and what he can expect to have with lineups on the floor. A coach needs to push himself beyond that comfort zone of course, and Brooks didn't know how to do that. Does Kerr? Is Ezeli a sign of Kerr's limitations as an emotional leader or as a basketball magician? Time will tell.