'15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Dr Positivity]

In bold might be right. But I think we need to sit back for a bit. Because state of the art defensive strategies to deal with him have just started to form. We may look back in a few years and say his utter sheer dominance was a flash in the pan because no one knew how to deal with him yet.

We've just seen him handily struggle in back to back series. Especially against the Cavs which I think in theory we all agreed was a tremendously good matchup for him. Lue's scheme broke him. Or maybe he just missed shots. But even this small sample size is very meaningful if you watched the games and saw him struggle and play like ****.

I still think the most likely explanation is he wasn't physically all there, by a combination of injury and what was a tiring year for the Warriors

[Dr Spaceman]

I get the winning bias thing. I really do. At the same time, it doesn't apply here.

This isn't a case where the clear best player just didn't have enough support around him to win a title, leading to an inferior one being improperly recognized. This is a case where a guy who we all knew what he was capable of actually delivered and had the best 3 game stretch in the history of the NBA leading to him knocking off a team that built itself up to be unbeatable. I feel the need to emphasize we've seen LeBron do stuff like this before, we know he has this ability, so it's not like we can say "well he's hot/lucky", he literally did it in the most high-pressure situation possible.

As such it's impossible for me to say we should be holding LeBron's regular season against him. The guy's 31, and came into the season with only 1 goal: win a championship. He did that, and more to the point it's the goal everyone else was shooting for as well, especially the Warriors. If you want to penalize him for being old and not having the same bounce to go balls out every night then fine, but it seems weird to me given this was all part of a strategy that ended up being a resounding success. He dominated the series to the point I don't think there's any doubt who the best player is when everyone's giving 100% effort, and him messing around was just the smart thing to do. It's just against my nature to actually penalize someone for a great strategy.

And finally: to some degree these awards should tell the story of the season. They should have historical significance. And as such any time we talk about the 2016 season, we need to be saying... The Warriors looked like the GOAT team, until they ran into LeBron. And no better way to make that clear than to give him the much-deserved POY award.

[Doctor MJ]

So I'm the only one who doesn't blame Draymond for costing them the series? Sorry but they had 2 more chances including another home game to wrap that up. And I don't want to hear one word about injury excuses. Maybe with Green there they win it 5, but I think that's far from a guarantee.

Obviously Draymond deserves to take some heat for getting himself needlessly suspended in the manner he did. And he will have to live all year with that. But there is more blame to go around for GSW. And more importantly--a lot of credit needs to be given to Cleveland who stepped up and won that series. I hope most of hte narrative doesn't become about GSW failure. Cavs earned this title.

It's a few things for me.

First, there's the matter that this is the stuff he'd already been doing. He had absolutely had warnings that told him, "Stop doing this or you're going to hurt your team badly some time.", and then he did it again at a time with literally NO tactical value. We now know definitely that Green has terrible impulse control compared to the vast majority of other professional athletes and until that changes that's a big deal to me.

Second, it's not about blaming Green to let others off the hook for me. I'm not sitting here saying "The Warriors were absolutely the best if it weren't for that guy Green, everything would be awesome!". The teams kept playing. The Cavs played better. That helps how some and hurts others.

Third, I am getting pretty tired though of the contingency rebuttals for Green. First it was "Look at how bad they played without him, he's Da Real MVP!", and then when him coming back changed nothing once the Cavs had their rhythm it's "Hey the Warriors had plenty of chances with Green."

The bottom line is that the Cavs simply played a hell of a lot better in Games 5-7 than they did Games 1-4, and not in a way that can be explained simply by being "clutch". And while I'm not going to give Green a negative one billion score for him literally being the guy who opened that door, it's awfully hard for me to come away from the series singing Green's praises.

I'll tell you what's interesting though:

Had Green had a 2nd half like the 1st in Game 7 and that been the reason why the Warriors won, that would indeed have been a big deal that would have changed how I saw the series. How exactly it would have changed it I'm not totally sure, but it would have been impossible to ignore.

[Doctor MJ]

Green did not look that good against OKC, but as the team's most important defender and a floor spacer so as always he still played a big part in making the Warriors what they are in the series and for example stuff like Durant's shooting struggles is connected to his help defense, and single handily forcing OKC to taking Kanter out of the series and use Durant to PF lineups, changed the series, for good or bad.

Sure, and Curry literally just being out on the floor means that he is 100% the top focus of all opponents every time they play.

[Doctor MJ]

Okay, going back to poster/voter mode, lots of good thoughts from other people I'm thinking about.

I like that people have been urging others to hold off on making final decisions, but I actually at this point like giving some specific thoughts with the hope that I'll be challenged by others.

So, my rough draft top 5 POYs right now:

1. LeBron - I'll try to keep my mind open, but it's hard for me to see taking a stand against him here
2. Curry - Still my solid #2, and frankly still THE guy you start with if you want to build a team based on state-of-the-art strategies.
3. Kawhi - Here's where it gets shaky. Kawhi was ahead of everyone I'm putting below him after the RS. Why should it change?
4. Westbrook - Right now I'm going along with the belief that he's OKC's MVP.
5. Durant - So damn scary, it bothers me to have him this low.

Other contenders:

Draymond - I expect he'll be the one we're talking about the most, so I won't elaborate here
Paul - Top 5 worthy. No debate there. Just a question if he can actually be justified above competition.
Kyrie - Really doubt he makes my Top 5, but just seems logical to put him in the discussion.

Other quick thoughts on the other awards:

OPOY: I'll probably still give this one to Curry.
DPOY: Definitely feeling Kawhi here at the moment.
MIP & 6MOY: I'll have to think on these more, but Giannis & Iggy are the ones coming to mind
COY: Probably Kerr again for me. Hard to see a better case for others.
EOY: Buford is the one that comes to mind...but given they lost to the team that lost to the team that lost to the champ, going all in on Aldridge may not be look as rosy as we move forward.

In bold might be right. But I think we need to sit back for a bit. Because state of the art defensive strategies to deal with him have just started to form. We may look back in a few years and say his utter sheer dominance was a flash in the pan because no one knew how to deal with him yet.

We've just seen him handily struggle in back to back series. Especially against the Cavs which I think in theory we all agreed was a tremendously good matchup for him. Lue's scheme broke him. Or maybe he just missed shots. But even this small sample size is very meaningful if you watched the games and saw him struggle and play like ****.

I'm comfortable with Bron. How you build around him is battle tested. He may not have the ceiling of Curry offensively but he's a 2 way anchor as we saw and he can always do what he can do against anybody.

And in bold is likely right. But I'm reevaluating Curry even though like all of us I saw what he did to the league these last 2 years. Because he has weaknesses as I've ALWAYS pointed them out. He was exposed on both ends by a team that in theory he had an amazing matchup against.

Great post, and of course this is the struggle with us moving organically from being a Retro POY project to a yearly POY vote.

As we speak right now, if we were to re-vote for POY from '14-15, I bet it goes to LeBron...
But if next year GS wins the title with Curry looking more like his RS self, and then we re-vote '14-15, it goes back to Curry.

It's not perfect, but I think it's fun and we learn things.

Also just to be clear: You're specifically right on about teams developing defensive strategy to combat pace & space and us not knowing where all that will go

[JLei]

In bold might be right. But I think we need to sit back for a bit. Because state of the art defensive strategies to deal with him have just started to form. We may look back in a few years and say his utter sheer dominance was a flash in the pan because no one knew how to deal with him yet.

We've just seen him handily struggle in back to back series. Especially against the Cavs which I think in theory we all agreed was a tremendously good matchup for him. Lue's scheme broke him. Or maybe he just missed shots. But even this small sample size is very meaningful if you watched the games and saw him struggle and play like ****.

I still think the most likely explanation is he wasn't physically all there, by a combination of injury and what was a tiring year for the Warriors

Could be. What made Curry great was the harmony of everything in his game coming together. But there were strategic things that worked against him that could hinder him in the future. And so what if it's different than teams have ever defended before/ forces the most adjustments. As long as the Warriors don't score at a GOAT rate like they were doing it changes things on how we think of him.

That's all I'm saying here. I'm not just accepting you plop Curry on any team and get GOAT offense hurray. Not after what I just saw. While still acknowledging he absolutely massacred the league for 2 years running. Those 2 MVP's and 1 title they have are well deserved.

[Texas Chuck]

It's a few things for me.

First, there's the matter that this is the stuff he'd already been doing. He had absolutely had warnings that told him, "Stop doing this or you're going to hurt your team badly some time.", and then he did it again at a time with literally NO tactical value. We now know definitely that Green has terrible impulse control compared to the vast majority of other professional athletes and until that changes that's a big deal to me.

Second, it's not about blaming Green to let others off the hook for me. I'm not sitting here saying "The Warriors were absolutely the best if it weren't for that guy Green, everything would be awesome!". The teams kept playing. The Cavs played better. That helps how some and hurts others.

Third, I am getting pretty tired though of the contingency rebuttals for Green. First it was "Look at how bad they played without him, he's Da Real MVP!", and then when him coming back changed nothing once the Cavs had their rhythm it's "Hey the Warriors had plenty of chances with Green."

The bottom line is that the Cavs simply played a hell of a lot better in Games 5-7 than they did Games 1-4, and not in a way that can be explained simply by being "clutch". And while I'm not going to give Green a negative one billion score for him literally being the guy who opened that door, it's awfully hard for me to come away from the series singing Green's praises.

I'll tell you what's interesting though:

Had Green had a 2nd half like the 1st in Game 7 and that been the reason why the Warriors won, that would indeed have been a big deal that would have changed how I saw the series. How exactly it would have changed it I'm not totally sure, but it would have been impossible to ignore.

1. Sure--that stuff bothers me too. Enough to not consider him on my POY ballot or to pin the series on him? Not even close. Especially not if I were like those who view Kerr as COY(for those not following my opinion on Kerr--I definitely don't). Blaming him for starting a momentum that couldn't be stopped doesn't jibe with Kerr being a basketball genius.

2. sure we agree here

3. That would bother me too, tho none of that is derived from me other than my belief that a 73 win team led by the unanimous MVP and the COY should feel pretty good about two shots to win one particularly with game 7 being a home game in a building they have dominated for 2 years now.

[Doctor MJ]

1. Sure--that stuff bothers me too. Enough to not consider him on my POY ballot or to pin the series on him? Not even close. Especially not if I were like those who view Kerr as COY(for those not following my opinion on Kerr--I definitely don't). Blaming him for starting a momentum that couldn't be stopped doesn't jibe with Kerr being a basketball genius.

Well like I say, I think there are more than 5 guys who are Top 5 worthy here just like you do. The issue isn't that I refuse to consider him, it's that competition is really tough this year. I mean Chris Paul was fantastic this year and I don't think he'll make my Top 5.

Re: Kerr, COY, genius. Also like I say, when I judge coaches I tend to go by their accomplishments rather than their failures because I have a hard time saying someone else would have succeeded where the guy on the real sideline failed. If someone wants to argue that one of the other COY candidates would have won the finals with the exact same rosters, they should argue that. Short of that though, it's more of a question of what other guys actually did and was it more noteworthy than what Kerr's done.

[HeartBreakKid]

Steve Kerr made some pretty questionable decisions these playoffs, if we're talking a coach that could have done better than him then I think Rick Carlisle and Brad Stevens would have done the job pretty well.

[Texas Chuck]

Re: Kerr, COY, genius. Also like I say, when I judge coaches I tend to go by their accomplishments rather than their failures because I have a hard time saying someone else would have succeeded where the guy on the real sideline failed. If someone wants to argue that one of the other COY candidates would have won the finals with the exact same rosters, they should argue that. Short of that though, it's more of a question of what other guys actually did and was it more noteworthy than what Kerr's done.

I agree with this approach too. I wasn't considering Kerr prior to this series and it would have taken something noteworthy for me to elevate him. Just like I didn't jump on the Donovan bandwagon because his team had the athletes to take a strategy other teams simply couldn't. We saw Kidd's medicore Bucks team do the same thing to snap their winning streak to start the season. It was about personnel more than coaching acumen imo.

So if people already had Kerr as COY, great. But in that case I struggle with so many posters putting so much blame on Green. Seems like a momentum issue is something a coach should bear a significant amount of responsbility for in addition to the players. I mean if Green got hurt for a game instead of suspended, would we just throw up our hands and say there was nothing the Warriors could do once Lebron got going? I'd hope not. I don't want the stupidity of him getting himself suspended to make us not examine what the Warriors might could have still done to win a very winnable series.

[Nbafanatic]

I'm leaning towards something like this for my list:

1. Lebron - Yes, he had a break with the Green suspension, but seized the moment superbly well, did an amazing east playoffs and an even better finals, had somewhat of a ressurgence of his jumper in the last few games and was the best defensive anchor against the Warriors. Some winning bias can be misunderstood as an oportunity seized here, because had Golden State closed earlier, he would not had had the opportunity to dominate games 6 and 7, but the most important thing here is that he had the opportunity and dominated.

2. Curry - Still arguably the greatest offensive regular season ever, still good overall playoffs, but not even "normal MVP level", as HeartBreakkidd mentioned there, it was a notche below, to me. Last year was "normal MVP level", and had he done that, I would be more torn right now. I think the combination of him being banged up from those injuries(not an excuse at all, he just looked liked 90% healthy to me, which can be expected, and perhaps is something we have to consider in evaluating him from now on, as he needs to be at almost 100% levels at all times to be able to really create enough separation and reach those supernova kind of zones responsible for a great portion of his GOAT level offensive regular season play) and him losing his confidence a bit by being blocked sometimes and involved in a million pick and rolls as well as being in foul trouble constantly and frustrated, those two factors played a part in his considerably diminished play in the postseason.

3. Durant - The third overall offensive player of the year and his defense against the Warriors makes him third in my mind.

4. Westbrook - The heart of the Thunder, amazing regular season but too many mistakes, especially defensively.

5. Kawhi - The second best defender of the league, very consistent, but more and more I see him as a great second option on offense, on the level of prime Pippen, therefore, he was expected outplayed in very fair team circunstances both ways by simply a better player, in Kevin Durant.

Six through ten here, just to mention, but Paul and Green can still enter my top 5:

6. Paul
7. Green
8. Lillard
9. Irving
10.Klay Thompson

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm leaning towards something like this for my list:

1. Lebron - Yes, he had a break with the Green suspension, but seized the moment superbly well, did an amazing east playoffs and an even better finals, had somewhat of a ressurgence of his jumper in the last few games and was the best defensive anchor against the Warriors. Some winning bias can be misunderstood as an oportunity seized here, because had Golden State closed earlier, he would not had had the opportunity to dominate games 6 and 7, but the most important thing here is that he had the opportunity and dominated.

2. Curry - Still arguably the greatest offensive regular season ever, still good overall playoffs, but not even "normal MVP level", as HeartBreakidd mentioned there, it was a notche below, to me. Last year was "normal MVP level", and had he done that, I would be more torn right now. I think the combination of him being banged up from those injuries(not an excuse at all, he just looked liked 90% healthy to me, which can be expected, and perhaps is something we have to consider in evaluating him from now on, as he needs to be at almost 100% levels at all times to be able to really create enough separation and reach those supernova kind of zones responsible for a great portion of his GOAT level offensive regular season play) and him losing his confidence a bit by being blocked sometimes and involved in a million pick and rolls as well as being in foul trouble constantly and frustrated, those two factors played a part in his considerably diminished play in the postseason.

3. Durant - The third overall offensive player of the year and his defense against the Warriors makes him third in my mind.

4. Westbrook - The heart of the Thunder, amazing regular season but too many mistakes, especially defensively.

5. Kawhi - The second best defender of the league, very consistent, but more and more I see him as a great second option on offense, on the level of prime Pippen, therefore, he was expected outplayed in very fair team circunstances both ways by simply a better player, in Kevin Durant.

Six through ten here, just to mention, but Paul and Green can still enter my top 5:

6. Paul
7. Green
8. Lillard
9. Irving
10.Klay Thompson

I don't know, if Curry was playing a level below MVP level, then who was playing at an MVP level in your top 5? Was Curry really clearly worse than Durant, Leonard and Westbrook in the playoffs?

Kyrie Irving isn't even an All-NBA caliber player, and wasn't even considered top 20, how can he be ranked but someone like Paul George, who also had an amazing post season run and is the sole star on his team not get a mention? There has to be some winning bias there, no?

[NinjaSheppard]

I think I am still leaning towards Curry as number 1.

I value the regular season more than the playoffs. I know that is weird for some but there are more games and I just hate rewarding players for mailing in regular seasons while punishing guys who burn out trying in games they are paid to play. The significantly larger sample size also matters. Additionally, I can't really reward the playoffs more until we get a 1 to 16 bracket because the East really has one basketball team that is worth anything. The Warriors reward for winning 73 games shouldn't have been having to play the Thunder or the Spurs.

Also Cavs vs Warriors and OKC vs Warriors completely tilts based on the health of the Warriors and the scheduling. I don't think LeBron has the energy to do what he did against the Warriors if he had play the OKC type schedule of having one day off between most games as opposed to two days off.

If I am trying to win a title I still pick Curry over LeBron and over the course of a very large sample size I think that was reflected. I'll take my chances that Curry doesn't slip on a wet spot if we replay the season.

1. Curry
2. LeBron
3. Durant
4. Westbrook
5. CP3 or Kawhi

[bondom34]

Yeah I definitely get the reasoning for Curry at 1, its still really close to me as well, but I'm having a hard time with how poor he was throughout the postseason relative to Lebron. Had it been a few games I'd be closer still and am kind of back and forth now, but leaning Lebron at 1, Curry 2. Westbrook and Kawhi are locked at 3/4, and 5 is either Durant or CP.

[Nbafanatic]

I'm leaning towards something like this for my list:

1. Lebron - Yes, he had a break with the Green suspension, but seized the moment superbly well, did an amazing east playoffs and an even better finals, had somewhat of a ressurgence of his jumper in the last few games and was the best defensive anchor against the Warriors. Some winning bias can be misunderstood as an oportunity seized here, because had Golden State closed earlier, he would not had had the opportunity to dominate games 6 and 7, but the most important thing here is that he had the opportunity and dominated.

2. Curry - Still arguably the greatest offensive regular season ever, still good overall playoffs, but not even "normal MVP level", as HeartBreakidd mentioned there, it was a notche below, to me. Last year was "normal MVP level", and had he done that, I would be more torn right now. I think the combination of him being banged up from those injuries(not an excuse at all, he just looked liked 90% healthy to me, which can be expected, and perhaps is something we have to consider in evaluating him from now on, as he needs to be at almost 100% levels at all times to be able to really create enough separation and reach those supernova kind of zones responsible for a great portion of his GOAT level offensive regular season play) and him losing his confidence a bit by being blocked sometimes and involved in a million pick and rolls as well as being in foul trouble constantly and frustrated, those two factors played a part in his considerably diminished play in the postseason.

3. Durant - The third overall offensive player of the year and his defense against the Warriors makes him third in my mind.

4. Westbrook - The heart of the Thunder, amazing regular season but too many mistakes, especially defensively.

5. Kawhi - The second best defender of the league, very consistent, but more and more I see him as a great second option on offense, on the level of prime Pippen, therefore, he was expected outplayed in very fair team circunstances both ways by simply a better player, in Kevin Durant.

Six through ten here, just to mention, but Paul and Green can still enter my top 5:

6. Paul
7. Green
8. Lillard
9. Irving
10.Klay Thompson

I don't know, if Curry was playing a level below MVP level, then who was playing at an MVP level in your top 5? Was Curry really clearly worse than Durant, Leonard and Westbrook in the playoffs?

Kyrie Irving isn't even an All-NBA caliber player, and wasn't even considered top 20, how can he be ranked but someone like Paul George, who also had an amazing post season run and is the sole star on his team not get a mention? There has to be some winning bias there, no?

About Paul George, you're right, I completely forgot about him. I'll put him at 9th and drop Klay Thompson off the top 10. But about Kyrie, is kind of tricky, I understand when you say he is not an all NBA caliber because of his low awareness, mostly bad defense and poor team play most of the times, but he is arguably one of the greatest one on one players in the history of the game, and when he is on, he can really destroy a team as he proved in the finals, so I think it is tough to just dismiss him like this. Don't you think he is on the level of Damian Lillard, for instance?

As for your question about Curry, I think Westbrook and Durant were a bit better than him, but still not MVP level good. Curry just had too much of a gap on them regarding regular season play to really make a difference.

[NinjaSheppard]

Yeah I have no issue with anyone putting LeBron one. I always find this exercise difficult because balancing the regular season and the playoffs is just so hard. I'd probably have put LeBron number 1 though if

1gsw / 16chi
8atl / 9bos
4tor / 13det
5okc / 12por
3cle / 14dal
6lac / 11ind
2sas / 15mem
7mia / 10cha

We had gotten this bracket and he had beaten the Clippers/Spurs/Warriors

[Doctor MJ]

Re: Kerr, COY, genius. Also like I say, when I judge coaches I tend to go by their accomplishments rather than their failures because I have a hard time saying someone else would have succeeded where the guy on the real sideline failed. If someone wants to argue that one of the other COY candidates would have won the finals with the exact same rosters, they should argue that. Short of that though, it's more of a question of what other guys actually did and was it more noteworthy than what Kerr's done.

I agree with this approach too. I wasn't considering Kerr prior to this series and it would have taken something noteworthy for me to elevate him. Just like I didn't jump on the Donovan bandwagon because his team had the athletes to take a strategy other teams simply couldn't. We saw Kidd's medicore Bucks team do the same thing to snap their winning streak to start the season. It was about personnel more than coaching acumen imo.

So if people already had Kerr as COY, great. But in that case I struggle with so many posters putting so much blame on Green. Seems like a momentum issue is something a coach should bear a significant amount of responsbility for in addition to the players. I mean if Green got hurt for a game instead of suspended, would we just throw up our hands and say there was nothing the Warriors could do once Lebron got going? I'd hope not. I don't want the stupidity of him getting himself suspended to make us not examine what the Warriors might could have still done to win a very winnable series.

And I would agree here. You literally had Kerr here responding to reporters saying, "We're happy to let them try to beat us as individuals.", which basically means he viewed the Cavs as a team that would let role players get stagnant if they went to the iso game, and instead it allowed the stars to get into their groove which allowed them to get role players going.

So basically he seemed to assume that LeBron was what they'd already seen from him rather than seeing LeBron as someone you have to keep uncomfortable, and that bit his team. I don't really want to put Lue anywhere near the COY discussion here, but it seemed to me he was much more prepared to deal with momentum - frankly it seemed like about the only thing he was trying to manage at time.

So yeah, criticism of Kerr makes sense here, but the next argument I heard that elevates someone else above Kerr this season will be the first.

[MisterHibachi]

I think I am still leaning towards Curry as number 1.

I value the regular season more than the playoffs. I know that is weird for some but there are more games and I just hate rewarding players for mailing in regular seasons while punishing guys who burn out trying in games they are paid to play. The significantly larger sample size also matters. Additionally, I can't really reward the playoffs more until we get a 1 to 16 bracket because the East really has one basketball team that is worth anything. The Warriors reward for winning 73 games shouldn't have been having to play the Thunder or the Spurs.

Also Cavs vs Warriors and OKC vs Warriors completely tilts based on the health of the Warriors and the scheduling. I don't think LeBron has the energy to do what he did against the Warriors if he had play the OKC type schedule of having one day off between most games as opposed to two days off.

If I am trying to win a title I still pick Curry over LeBron and over the course of a very large sample size I think that was reflected. I'll take my chances that Curry doesn't slip on a wet spot if we replay the season.

1. Curry
2. LeBron
3. Durant
4. Westbrook
5. CP3 or Kawhi

But how do you consider the very real flaws in Curry's game that were exposed by the Cavs?

[JLei]

Okay, going back to poster/voter mode, lots of good thoughts from other people I'm thinking about.

I like that people have been urging others to hold off on making final decisions, but I actually at this point like giving some specific thoughts with the hope that I'll be challenged by others.

So, my rough draft top 5 POYs right now:

1. LeBron - I'll try to keep my mind open, but it's hard for me to see taking a stand against him here
2. Curry - Still my solid #2, and frankly still THE guy you start with if you want to build a team based on state-of-the-art strategies.
3. Kawhi - Here's where it gets shaky. Kawhi was ahead of everyone I'm putting below him after the RS. Why should it change?
4. Westbrook - Right now I'm going along with the belief that he's OKC's MVP.
5. Durant - So damn scary, it bothers me to have him this low.

Other contenders:

Draymond - I expect he'll be the one we're talking about the most, so I won't elaborate here
Paul - Top 5 worthy. No debate there. Just a question if he can actually be justified above competition.
Kyrie - Really doubt he makes my Top 5, but just seems logical to put him in the discussion.

Other quick thoughts on the other awards:

OPOY: I'll probably still give this one to Curry.
DPOY: Definitely feeling Kawhi here at the moment.
MIP & 6MOY: I'll have to think on these more, but Giannis & Iggy are the ones coming to mind
COY: Probably Kerr again for me. Hard to see a better case for others.
EOY: Buford is the one that comes to mind...but given they lost to the team that lost to the team that lost to the champ, going all in on Aldridge may not be look as rosy as we move forward.

In bold might be right. But I think we need to sit back for a bit. Because state of the art defensive strategies to deal with him have just started to form. We may look back in a few years and say his utter sheer dominance was a flash in the pan because no one knew how to deal with him yet.

We've just seen him handily struggle in back to back series. Especially against the Cavs which I think in theory we all agreed was a tremendously good matchup for him. Lue's scheme broke him. Or maybe he just missed shots. But even this small sample size is very meaningful if you watched the games and saw him struggle and play like ****.

I'm comfortable with Bron. How you build around him is battle tested. He may not have the ceiling of Curry offensively but he's a 2 way anchor as we saw and he can always do what he can do against anybody.

And in bold is likely right. But I'm reevaluating Curry even though like all of us I saw what he did to the league these last 2 years. Because he has weaknesses as I've ALWAYS pointed them out. He was exposed on both ends by a team that in theory he had an amazing matchup against.

Great post, and of course this is the struggle with us moving organically from being a Retro POY project to a yearly POY vote.

As we speak right now, if we were to re-vote for POY from '14-15, I bet it goes to LeBron...
But if next year GS wins the title with Curry looking more like his RS self, and then we re-vote '14-15, it goes back to Curry.

It's not perfect, but I think it's fun and we learn things.

Also just to be clear: You're specifically right on about teams developing defensive strategy to combat pace & space and us not knowing where all that will go

I'll leave these tweets here from harlabob. So much to dissect. We've praised GS for being ahead of the game (oh and they weren't afraid to pat themselves on the back too). When teams finally caught up in strategy to Spurs/GSW (switching)/ manipulating the rules (illegal screening/ mugging off ball) their advantage was bound to go down.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/haralabob/status/744956779319046145[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/haralabob/status/744958750910353408[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/haralabob/status/744959624856506368[/tweet]

Especially that 2nd tweet. It will turn the NBA on its head and perhaps bring back the need to have guys who can ISO. Which funny enough the Cavs have the answer too. Keep working until Curry gets switched onto James/ Irving and then manhandle him to force a collapse.

Warriors don't have a guy who can ISO like that. Against a switching defense you just find the mismatch.

[MisterHibachi]

Re: Kerr, COY, genius. Also like I say, when I judge coaches I tend to go by their accomplishments rather than their failures because I have a hard time saying someone else would have succeeded where the guy on the real sideline failed. If someone wants to argue that one of the other COY candidates would have won the finals with the exact same rosters, they should argue that. Short of that though, it's more of a question of what other guys actually did and was it more noteworthy than what Kerr's done.

I agree with this approach too. I wasn't considering Kerr prior to this series and it would have taken something noteworthy for me to elevate him. Just like I didn't jump on the Donovan bandwagon because his team had the athletes to take a strategy other teams simply couldn't. We saw Kidd's medicore Bucks team do the same thing to snap their winning streak to start the season. It was about personnel more than coaching acumen imo.

So if people already had Kerr as COY, great. But in that case I struggle with so many posters putting so much blame on Green. Seems like a momentum issue is something a coach should bear a significant amount of responsbility for in addition to the players. I mean if Green got hurt for a game instead of suspended, would we just throw up our hands and say there was nothing the Warriors could do once Lebron got going? I'd hope not. I don't want the stupidity of him getting himself suspended to make us not examine what the Warriors might could have still done to win a very winnable series.

And I would agree here. You literally had Kerr here responding to reporters saying, "We're happy to let them try to beat us as individuals.", which basically means he viewed the Cavs as a team that would let role players get stagnant if they went to the iso game, and instead it allowed the stars to get into their groove which allowed them to get role players going.

So basically he seemed to assume that LeBron was what they'd already seen from him rather than seeing LeBron as someone you have to keep uncomfortable, and that bit his team. I don't really want to put Lue anywhere near the COY discussion here, but it seemed to me he was much more prepared to deal with momentum - frankly it seemed like about the only thing he was trying to manage at time.

So yeah, criticism of Kerr makes sense here, but the next argument I heard that elevates someone else above Kerr this season will be the first.

I might consider Lue for a third place vote or something, but I think the bad game plan the Cavs came into the finals with, of going back to Blatt's bully ball post ups, and didn't change till Game 3 might have been the biggest reason they were down 0-2 in the first place. That's fully on Lue, but to his credit he did see the right game plan and went back to what had been working for the Cavs the entire playoffs.