The Virtical says that we were losers.

[JAY DASH]

I think Vucevic is by far a more clear cut starter than Payton and I don't think he's holding us back from anything. We just witness Tristan Thompson playing center in the finals for Cleveland and they won a title so I don't want to hear that we cant win with Vucevic when its clear to me that we indeed can. The Vucevic and Ibaka combination will make up for each other's weaknesses. IMO that combination along with Vogel's acumen will allow us to continue to improve defensively just like we did last season with Nik as our starting center.

Tristan Thompson is a far better defender than Vucevic.

What? No he's not. And even if he were I bet its slight and that's on his best day.

Um...yes...yes he is. Lol...they aren't even in the same class defensively. Are you ok?

[MagicFan101]

Very closed minded way of looking at things.

Are you saying the Lakers are enjoying Dwight Howard today? Are you saying the 76ers are enjoying Andrew Bynum today?

We were labeled the losers of that trade at the time but we are the only team involved to have retained the key piece.

I didn't know Vuc was as talented as he is at the time but it has worked out better than taking Bynum or Brook Lopez.

Again, I'll wait and see how it works it. ... this is quite open minded.

We also haven't sniffed the playoffs since the trade while the Lakers and Nuggets both have. Retaining a key piece is't really that major in my eyes if the team is still mediocre. That's kind of like saying the Kings won the Rudy Gay trade because he is still a major part of the team. Who cares if you never win anything?

The Lakers still had a not yet completely washed up Kobe to help them. Now that Kobe is washed up and Dwight is gone, have have they been doing?

Your argument is like saying Cleveland won the Kevin Love trade (maybe they did and maybe they didn't) for no reason other than they won a title and the TWolves are in the lottery. Did Lebron James have nothing to do with their success? Are TWolves fans today wishing they had Love instead of Wiggins, KAT and (yes, and) Dunn?

That business school of yours should have spent more time covering granular analytics.

[KingRobb02]

Are you saying the Lakers are enjoying Dwight Howard today? Are you saying the 76ers are enjoying Andrew Bynum today?

We were labeled the losers of that trade at the time but we are the only team involved to have retained the key piece.

I didn't know Vuc was as talented as he is at the time but it has worked out better than taking Bynum or Brook Lopez.

Again, I'll wait and see how it works it. ... this is quite open minded.

We also haven't sniffed the playoffs since the trade while the Lakers and Nuggets both have. Retaining a key piece is't really that major in my eyes if the team is still mediocre. That's kind of like saying the Kings won the Rudy Gay trade because he is still a major part of the team. Who cares if you never win anything?

The Lakers still had a not yet completely washed up Kobe to help them. Now that Kobe is washed up and Dwight is gone, have have they been doing?

Your argument is like saying Cleveland won the Kevin Love trade (maybe they did and maybe they didn't) for no reason other than they won a title and the TWolves are in the lottery. Did Lebron James have nothing to do with their success? Are TWolves fans today wishing they had Love instead of Wiggins, KAT and (yes, and) Dunn?

That business school of yours should have spent more time covering granular analytics.

So by your logic, the mistakes LA made to follow up that trade mean they lost the trade? If they didn't give super washed 35 year old Kobe that crazy extension and instead promise Dwight it would be his team, they definitely keep him and actually have money to make real moves once Pau and Nash are gone.

No, Cleveland won the Kevin Love trade because they got the better player as well as a key piece of a title team. You would not be able to convice Cleveland to do a Wiggins for Love swap. Your logic of Wiggins led teams being bad enough to get them 2 more lottery picks, doesn't really compute.

[MagicFan101]

We also haven't sniffed the playoffs since the trade while the Lakers and Nuggets both have. Retaining a key piece is't really that major in my eyes if the team is still mediocre. That's kind of like saying the Kings won the Rudy Gay trade because he is still a major part of the team. Who cares if you never win anything?

The Lakers still had a not yet completely washed up Kobe to help them. Now that Kobe is washed up and Dwight is gone, have have they been doing?

Your argument is like saying Cleveland won the Kevin Love trade (maybe they did and maybe they didn't) for no reason other than they won a title and the TWolves are in the lottery. Did Lebron James have nothing to do with their success? Are TWolves fans today wishing they had Love instead of Wiggins, KAT and (yes, and) Dunn?

That business school of yours should have spent more time covering granular analytics.

So by your logic, the mistakes LA made to follow up that trade mean they lost the trade? If they didn't give super washed 35 year old Kobe that crazy extension and instead promise Dwight it would be his team, they definitely keep him and actually have money to make real moves once Pau and Nash are gone.

No, Cleveland won the Kevin Love trade because they got the better player as well as a key piece of a title team. You would not be able to convice Cleveland to do a Wiggins for Love swap. Your logic of Wiggins led teams being bad enough to get them 2 more lottery picks, doesn't really compute.

How far did Kevin Love get Minny while he was there?

Your analysis that immediate success following a trade is the only factor in grading it is rediculous.

[KingRobb02]

The Lakers still had a not yet completely washed up Kobe to help them. Now that Kobe is washed up and Dwight is gone, have have they been doing?

Your argument is like saying Cleveland won the Kevin Love trade (maybe they did and maybe they didn't) for no reason other than they won a title and the TWolves are in the lottery. Did Lebron James have nothing to do with their success? Are TWolves fans today wishing they had Love instead of Wiggins, KAT and (yes, and) Dunn?

That business school of yours should have spent more time covering granular analytics.

So by your logic, the mistakes LA made to follow up that trade mean they lost the trade? If they didn't give super washed 35 year old Kobe that crazy extension and instead promise Dwight it would be his team, they definitely keep him and actually have money to make real moves once Pau and Nash are gone.

No, Cleveland won the Kevin Love trade because they got the better player as well as a key piece of a title team. You would not be able to convice Cleveland to do a Wiggins for Love swap. Your logic of Wiggins led teams being bad enough to get them 2 more lottery picks, doesn't really compute.

How far did Kevin Love get Minny while he was there?

Your analysis that immediate success following a trade is the only factor in grading it is rediculous.

They had a great net rating when he was on the court and an awful when he was off it. The Wolves di very little to put talent around him and they suffered in the win column because of it. You brought that trade up. I taked about the Dwight and Rudy Gay trades. Those trades happened a while back and I think it's pretty fair to judge them both based on team success up to this point.

[Xatticus]

The Magic only won that trade relative to the other participants. The Magic essentially lost that trade from the moment that Howard forced his way out, as they were never going to receive equal value from it. Philadelphia took the biggest beating, as they would've been better off staying out of it altogether.

None of this is particularly meaningful though, as the basis for the critiques of this trade are entirely different. The Magic received little in the way of known quantities in the Howard trade. This is decidedly not the case in this transaction, where the team that has been proclaimed the winner is the one receiving the assets whose genuine value remains to be seen. There is more than a bit of irony that this is even being discussed as it pertains to the Ibaka trade though. How did it work out for the Lakers when they decided to trade assets for a vet on an expiring deal?

As an aside, it is interesting that we are receiving a player that has supposedly stirred up discontent over his touches on a highly successful team. Does that sound familiar to anyone? If all of these reports are true, it seems fairly clear to me that he has been thinking about next summer's payday for quite a while.

[Magic#1]

The Magic only won that trade relative to the other participants. The Magic essentially lost that trade from the moment that Howard forced his way out, as they were never going to receive equal value from it. Philadelphia took the biggest beating, as they would've been better off staying out of it altogether.

None of this is particularly meaningful though, as the basis for the critiques of this trade are entirely different. The Magic received little in the way of known quantities in the Howard trade. This is decidedly not the case in this transaction, where the team that has been proclaimed the winner is the one receiving the assets whose genuine value remains to be seen. There is more than a bit of irony that this is even being discussed as it pertains to the Ibaka trade though. How did it work out for the Lakers when they decided to trade assets for a vet on an expiring deal?

As an aside, it is interesting that we are receiving a player that has supposedly stirred up discontent over his touches on a highly successful team. Does that sound familiar to anyone? If all of these reports are true, it seems fairly clear to me that he has been thinking about next summer's payday for quite a while.

I've thought that as well and don't see that as a good thing.

[Audi]

It's interesting that I keep reading how the Magic got fleeced to the tune of "Dipo + Illy + the 11th for a one year Ibaka rental? WTF is Henny thinking?", with that assumption that there is a good chance Ibaka won't re-sign. I actually think the chances of him leaving are slim to none. NOBODY seems to acknowledge that Ibaka and Henny have history going back to 2008 and could be credited with bringing him to the league and aiding in his development.

[seeingstars]

Wheres the report that ibakas been trying to go to orlando for a bit now

[Bensational]

At what point is management going to realize that maybe it isn't smart to build around the glaring flaws of 2 non-elite, non-all star players? Are Vucevic and Payton that special? How long can we accept Payton's offensive incompetence at point guard and Vucevic's defensive incompetence at center? If they keep holding us back from our goals, they can not be starters.

I think Vucevic is by far a more clear cut starter than Payton and I don't think he's holding us back from anything. We just witness Tristan Thompson playing center in the finals for Cleveland and they won a title so I don't want to hear that we cant win with Vucevic when its clear to me that we indeed can. The Vucevic and Ibaka combination will make up for each other's weaknesses. IMO that combination along with Vogel's acumen will allow us to continue to improve defensively just like we did last season with Nik as our starting center.

Payton in his 2nd year had the same offensive impact as Vuc, when you factor in assists and FG%s off assists. That's an Elfrid Payton who had a 2nd year slump playing in a system that didn't suit him, dealing with injuries, and playing for a coach who hated him. And he's still only 21.

So there's valid reasons for taking Elf over Vuc, if it came down to that decision.

Tristan Thompson is a much better defender and rebounder than Vuc, because that's all he can do and all he focuses on doing. He's a prime example of why teams can afford to have 1-way players at the C position as long as the one way they play is defensively.

Hopefully Ibaka and Vuc will form a strong tandem. They certainly seem like a perfect match on paper, particularly with Vogel onboard to tighten the defense.

[eyriq]

Is it such a shocker that over the last four seasons we've been the 2nd youngest team with the 2nd worst record? The only team younger and worse is the Philadelphia 76ers.

We've been young, our core players have been young, and now we are starting to consolidate our assets like most of us expected and build around the core we've organically developed.

Harris, Oladipo, Nicholson, Harkless, and O'Quinn didn't make the cut.

Vucevic, Fournier, Payton, Gordon, and Hezonja did. At least so far. There is probably, well maybe it isn't probable actually, but maybe there is some more consolidating still to come.