The 2016 Offseason Thread (Post Draft)

[JMac1]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/EmpireOfTheSuns/status/748643720845660160[/tweet]

Thought I'd never say this, but thank God!

[Frank Lee]

Chandler should be an attractive trade asset with the contracts that will be rolled out to marginal players this offseason. In the right system, a motivated Chandler should still be able to ball on most teams. $13m flat for another 3 seasons should get us something decent in return, I'd like to think.

Yes... 13 flat will get us a center for the next three while we continue the 'Len, Bust or Bargain' debate

Its up to Watson to motivate him, and McMully to add a couple key pieces to actually make this team competitive. If the Mc can't come through, then Chandler will call BS on the sales pitch to land him and request a deal. Sure he inked up, but you know McMully dressed it up like a team on the rise.

But for now, if we want to make the playoffs TC is the best option.

I'd turn my interests to landing Kanter. People forget what a kid he is too. he's no puss.... and he almost was a wildcat.

[saintEscaton]

And I'm going to say this because it's my role: knight is currently better than Booker.

When Booker began to start he shot.....32.8% from 3? That's bad, and not in a Shaft/Miles Davis kind of way. Low quality.

I'm pretty sure Knight shot better from 3, although I'm on my phone now. He's a better passer, more athletic, and I've seen good defensive moments from him.

Knight should start, whether you want to hear it or not. So should Tyson, and we shouldn't blow anything up. I say it again: we weren't healthy. That's it.

Newsflash...Booker was the only one on the court who could play at the time. See what KD did his first year shooting with little to zero talent.

Booker was a rookie having to adjust to different looks frequently. The last thing I am worried about is Booker's shooting. So you rather start a PG guard over a SG that is better and younger and being portrayed as the future of the Suns.

And just because you are saying something doesn't make it so...."Knight should start whether you want to hear it or not." Too much.

You guys pencil in his greatness because "he was a first option rookie." So?

Now you're comparing him to Kevin Durant? You don't think that's a little much?

O.J. Mayo had a pretty good rookie year, too. Perspective.

Knight is currently better than Booker. All I have to do is cite numbers in order to prove it.

Yeah you would think with the way he is being talked up as a surefire franchise player, Book was at least on par with rookie Kyrie/Tyreke both who were above replacement when baptized by fire with no one else to carry the load. But he wasn't and besides his 30 point bursts and aggregate scoring milestones wasn't all that more impressive than rookie Lavine,who is widely considered an inferior prospect due to his lack of BBIQ. "But he's 19 the sky is the limit, look at KD's early struggles he will have a similar career trajectory. Dat eyetest tho"

[Mulhollanddrive]

I think there's very little variation in the quality of FAs we'll end up getting, whether it's Teletovic, Leuer, West, Williams much of a muchness, they get to play as a starter maybe 13 / 6 type and then move out of that position within 12-18 months.

So the main curveball would be if Knight or Chandler get moved, which would really open up alot of options with different directions.

[JMac1]

I'm still on the Knight for Rubio trade, or a Knight/Chandler for Rubio/Pekovic trade if Minny wants to dump Pekovic entirely and get some toughness up front.

That's a trade worth doing, but Rubio and Bledsoe both deserve to start, but I don't think I'd want to start them together. Booker certainly deserves to start but I don't want him starting at the 3.

I don't care where Booker starts, as long as he is effective. If he balls out at SF would you really care?

[bwgood77]

I'm still on the Knight for Rubio trade, or a Knight/Chandler for Rubio/Pekovic trade if Minny wants to dump Pekovic entirely and get some toughness up front.

That's a trade worth doing, but Rubio and Bledsoe both deserve to start, but I don't think I'd want to start them together. Booker certainly deserves to start but I don't want him starting at the 3.

I don't care where Booker starts, as long as he is effective. If he balls out at SF would you really care?

Well if we got crushed because our defense gave up more than our offense, yes. I'd prefer we didn't task him on guarding LeBron/Durant/Kawhi/George, etc yet, if ever.

[NavLDO]

Yes, yes, you are, because you are freaking clueless.

You want to label Len a bust, who's had all of 93 games starting experience--just over a season--and 189 total games played--roughly 2 seasons and some change total game experience. He's a 7'1" 260 lb C/PF, who was coached up by a former Guard, and has little to no idea how to use him properly. Yet are ok with paying $13M per for a 34 YO C who has ZERO range on his shot (77% at the rim, 12.5% from 3-to-10ft, for a total of 90% of his shots taken from within 10 ft), yet Alex, who shot 66.7% (44.3% at Rim/ 22.4% from within 10 ft, yet the other nearly 34% coming from 10ft or greater, as opposed to Chandler's , played over a minute less per game than Chandler, yet scored almost 2 PPG more than Chandler, 1 TRB less/gm, yet had .1 more BLKS/gm than Chandler--so taking all that into consideration, you are ready to give up on our top 5 pick from 3 years ago, who, BTW, after Horny was fired, delivered 14 DBL-DBLs playing an avg 28.8 MPG, avg'd 12.1 PPG, 9.9 TRB,1.8 Asst/gm in 32 gms. Oh yeah, total bust.

And your superstar Chandler? Well, let's see how he started off his career compared to Len. I mean, Tyson was selected 2nd overall in 2001; Len was 5th overall in 2013.

Let's look at their first 3 seasons, shall we?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&y1=2004&p1=chandty01&y2=2016&p2=lenal01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Len started 93 games of 189 played; Chandler started 107 of 181 played. Funny how you mention 'downward trend' when he played in more games, and started more games than either of his 1st two seasons...oops...1st 'myth' debunked'. He scored more PPG and had more TRB/gm last season than he did in either of his 1st two seasons....oops...2nd 'myth' debunked. Yet Chandler had fewer PPG and games played from his 2nd to 3rd season, yet amazingly, he survived his downward trend quite well wouldn't you say?

Yet Tyson outpaced Len in FG%s in his 1st 3 seasons. Well, I should hope so, since as you see below, nearly 60% of his shots were from 3ft in, whereas Len had just over 38% of his FGA from 3ft in. Yet, when we look at FT Attempts, we see that Len had the clear advantage of shooting FTs with a 71.4% clip compared to Chander's 61.8% FT%.

FG Atempts (3ft in/Total):
1st Season -- Len: 37 of 78 vs Chandler's: 202 of 304
2nd Season -- Len: 192 of 353 vs Chandler's: 282 of 484
3rd Season -- Len: 276 of 623 vs Chandler's: 79 of 159
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Total -- Len 405 of 1054 vs Chandler: 563 of 947
38.4% vs 59.5%

Then let's look at TRBs. Chandler, despite playing 297 total more minutes than Len during his 1st 3 seasons, ended up producing 20 total fewer TRBs than Len.

And how about per36 stats. Well, you'll see Len with .1 fewer Assts than Chandler, but again, outrebounding him 11.2 vs 10.1, but alas, with .2 total fewer pts per36, .4 fewer BLKS, though equal numbers of STLs and TOVs.
So, seeing that Len is actually IMPROVING, as opposed to this mythical 'downward trend' you speak of, and of which, includes Len's 14 Dbl-Dbls in his final 32 games of the season, and while yes, he has some work to do, and trails Chandler in many of the advanced stats, the fact that Len's had quite the surge in performance as soon as Watson took over for Hornacek. leads me to the assumption that he'll continue to improve, and thus, is FAR more likely to 'succeed' than to 'bust' as you are predicting him to.

Except we barely used Chandler properly. In fact most stats above are not that far apart. Of course Len will move quicker than Chandler. I will leave you with this:

Chandler won a championship. He wasn't a ring chaser. He was an integral part. Remove Chandler and the Mavericks would have NEVER won the championship against Miami.

Len can barely stay on the court. -- What part of the veritable NON-DIFFERENCE in missed playing time between Len and Chandler in their 1st 3 years did you miss?? Apparently, all of it.

He can barely start on a SUNS team with how many centers? Really?

-- And Chandler could barely start with how many Centers on his team in his 1st 3 years in the league?--Bagaric and Curry. He wasn't a consistent starter on his team until his SIXTH season...on his SECOND team. You gonna give Len that much time to win his spot? Oh wait, he already has??

He might be improving just like eventually Robin Lopez improved and became an average center. Remove Len and this team wouldn't even miss him for one second. He just simply doesn't matter.

-- Kind of like how Chicago didn't miss Chandler...nor did the NOH...nor did CHA...nor did DAL...nor did NYK...

Len does not have a future on this team. You know it. I know it. The entire SUNS organization knows it.

Ah, another crystal-baller...and apparently, you completely ignored most of the info I provided, so there's no point in arguing with you on this. You act like you know something, yet you know nothing. That's the difference between types like you and types like me; you try to make statements of certainty, knowing it will never catch up with you on a message forum, and the rest of us, make statements of reason. So you go ahead and act like your an NBA GM...run along back to your NBA2K16, or whatever they call those things.

[JMac1]

That's a trade worth doing, but Rubio and Bledsoe both deserve to start, but I don't think I'd want to start them together. Booker certainly deserves to start but I don't want him starting at the 3.

I don't care where Booker starts, as long as he is effective. If he balls out at SF would you really care?

Well if we got crushed because our defense gave up more than our offense, yes. I'd prefer we didn't task him on guarding LeBron/Durant/Kawhi/George, etc yet, if ever.

Nobody guards those guys, you know that right?

[bwgood77]

That's funny, that mock that you were going to do that I took over is playing out just like that.

So glad i didnt get involved. What i predicted is now happening. Instead of posters making trades based off of what their GM would do, its turned into a crazy free-for-all and players talking trades for what they want. Hell, i even saw a Hield for Murray trade offer, like any GM is going to turn around and trade a freshly drafted player for another one that he could have drafted himself (a week after the draft). Seeing teams make multiple trades (3-4) knowing damn well that their FO would never do that. They are doing what THEY believe their team should do, not what the GM would actually do. Seriously, i keep reading the thread because as the days progress it keeps turning more and more into a s**t show.

I mean..there's no point in the exercise at all if you can't have some freedom. Nobody is inside the FO. It's not like Dirk is getting traded or Elton Brand is getting 4yr offers.

Funny you offered Mirza a deal and the guy running it gave him to you to join the evil empire, but I got both Leuer AND Ish at close to the same price.

[SunsFanSSOL]

I expect Price and Mirza and nothing else.

[bwgood77]

I don't care where Booker starts, as long as he is effective. If he balls out at SF would you really care?

Well if we got crushed because our defense gave up more than our offense, yes. I'd prefer we didn't task him on guarding LeBron/Durant/Kawhi/George, etc yet, if ever.

Nobody guards those guys, you know that right?

No, I've watched Iggy win MVP in the finals for making the difference on LeBron, or making Durant shoot 6-25. Those guys will go off, but with Booker on them they'd really go off.

I don't mind running him at the 3 sometimes, but to be our main guy at the 3, no.

[saintEscaton]

Well if we got crushed because our defense gave up more than our offense, yes. I'd prefer we didn't task him on guarding LeBron/Durant/Kawhi/George, etc yet, if ever.

Nobody guards those guys, you know that right?

No, I've watched Iggy win MVP in the finals for making the difference on LeBron, or making Durant shoot 6-25. Those guys will go off, but with Booker on them they'd really go off.

I don't mind running him at the 3 sometimes, but to be our main guy at the 3, no.

Couldn't be any worse than TJ on the other end. Or could he?

[bwgood77]

I expect Price and Mirza and nothing else.

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel. And this year, I wouldn't be terribly upset with that result. I do think we could sign guys that are better for cheaper, like Ish and Leuer, but as Watson says "it's all about community"...ok maybe he doesn't say that, but it sounds like something he'd say.

[JMac1]

Well if we got crushed because our defense gave up more than our offense, yes. I'd prefer we didn't task him on guarding LeBron/Durant/Kawhi/George, etc yet, if ever.

Nobody guards those guys, you know that right?

No, I've watched Iggy win MVP in the finals for making the difference on LeBron, or making Durant shoot 6-25. Those guys will go off, but with Booker on them they'd really go off.

I don't mind running him at the 3 sometimes, but to be our main guy at the 3, no.

I understand your point, but no body stops those guys. One out of........ is not stopping a guy. Booker is 19. He is going to get bigger, faster, stronger, and smarter. His future position may be SF. Players evolve.

[bwgood77]

Nobody guards those guys, you know that right?

No, I've watched Iggy win MVP in the finals for making the difference on LeBron, or making Durant shoot 6-25. Those guys will go off, but with Booker on them they'd really go off.

I don't mind running him at the 3 sometimes, but to be our main guy at the 3, no.

I understand your point, but no body stops those guys. One out of........ is not stopping a guy. Booker is 19. He is going to get bigger, faster, stronger, and smarter. His future position may be SF. Players evolve.

Honestly, I don't really care this year. I want to see as much of Booker as possible, and I'm not concerned with losing. I think it would be better to start Knight for now (I don't really like him) and hopefully either a 3 guard rotation works or Knight plays well enough to trade....and if all are hot, they can all play at the same time. But if he is at the 3 that means Knight is at the 2 and if you have Bledsoe and Knight at the guard spots, I hate to tell ya, but Booker is not going to be shooting as much as you'd like.

[JMac1]

Just for the board. Rhetorical. Why do you guys act as if you really have to be some defensive of god to play in the NBA? Anyone with half of a brain knows MOST defense is based off of reputation and favoritism. Curry and Klay reaches on every play. With them its good D, with Booker or other non-stars its a foul.

I swear most of the times Booker is like "what the hell do you want me to do?"

Not worried.

[JMac1]

No, I've watched Iggy win MVP in the finals for making the difference on LeBron, or making Durant shoot 6-25. Those guys will go off, but with Booker on them they'd really go off.

I don't mind running him at the 3 sometimes, but to be our main guy at the 3, no.

I understand your point, but no body stops those guys. One out of........ is not stopping a guy. Booker is 19. He is going to get bigger, faster, stronger, and smarter. His future position may be SF. Players evolve.

Honestly, I don't really care this year. I want to see as much of Booker as possible, and I'm not concerned with losing. I think it would be better to start Knight for now (I don't really like him) and hopefully either a 3 guard rotation works or Knight plays well enough to trade....and if all are hot, they can all play at the same time. But if he is at the 3 that means Knight is at the 2 and if you have Bledsoe and Knight at the guard spots, I hate to tell ya, but Booker is not going to be shooting as much as you'd like.

[Frank Lee]

I think there's very little variation in the quality of FAs we'll end up getting, whether it's Teletovic, Leuer, West, Williams much of a muchness, they get to play as a starter maybe 13 / 6 type and then move out of that position within 12-18 months.

So the main curveball would be if Knight or Chandler get moved, which would really open up alot of options with different directions.

batter up

[lilfishi22]

Newsflash...Booker was the only one on the court who could play at the time. See what KD did his first year shooting with little to zero talent.

Booker was a rookie having to adjust to different looks frequently. The last thing I am worried about is Booker's shooting. So you rather start a PG guard over a SG that is better and younger and being portrayed as the future of the Suns.

And just because you are saying something doesn't make it so...."Knight should start whether you want to hear it or not." Too much.

You guys pencil in his greatness because "he was a first option rookie." So?

Now you're comparing him to Kevin Durant? You don't think that's a little much?

O.J. Mayo had a pretty good rookie year, too. Perspective.

Knight is currently better than Booker. All I have to do is cite numbers in order to prove it.

Yeah you would think with the way he is being talked up as a surefire franchise player, Book was at least on par with rookie Kyrie/Tyreke both who were above replacement when baptized by fire with no one else to carry the load. But he wasn't and besides his 30 point bursts and aggregate scoring milestones wasn't all that more impressive than rookie Lavine,who is widely considered an inferior prospect due to his lack of BBIQ. "But he's 19 the sky is the limit, look at KD's early struggles he will have a similar career trajectory. Dat eyetest tho"

I loooove me some Booker but you and Dant are 100% correct. As good as Booker has been, his numbers are hardly historic. Is it special for his draft class? For sure. But let's not confuse the best rookie we've drafted since Amare with some of the best rookies post-Lebron.

Knight has his flaws but he's still a better player than Booker is right now. That may change as soon as the middle of next season but fact is, there is a lot about the NBA, the grind, the nuances and the competition that Booker still needs to experience, understand and fight through. These are aspects of the game that Knight has learn from by being around the game for the past 5 seasons.

[saintEscaton]

Just for the board. Rhetorical. Why do you guys act as if you really have to be some defensive of god to play in the NBA? Anyone with half of a brain knows MOST defense is based off of reputation and favoritism. Curry and Klay reaches on every play. With them its good D, with Booker or other non-stars its a foul.

I swear most of the times Booker is like "what the hell do you want me to do?"

Not worried.

Excuses excuses. Booker has to earn his no calls. I'm more concerned about his off ball rotational awareness and hopefully he learns when to fight over the top or go under screens, taking the right angle so he isn't brushed squarely