'15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[ronnymac2]

I don't think I have an official vote, but these would be my choices.

POY:

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Draymond Green
4. Steph Curry
5. Russell Westbrook

SUPER HM: Kawai Leonard

In the end, a weaker year than expected. I think this version of James has been the worst version of James since maybe 2011. I think 2012-2015 James could do exactly what he did this season (REG SEA and playoffs). But what he did this season was still super impressive. Usual numbers in the REG SEA with very good defense. Ramped it up in the playoffs (ITO MPG, offensive rebounding aggression, playing the PF, moving off-ball in certain lineups, deferring to Love and Kyrie's scoring in other lineups, defensive motor/focus, etc.). Just the ultimate utility player. He's the best ever. Even with the severely declined off-the-dribble leaping and inconsistent jumper, he was dominant this year. I don't think he should work on his jumper this summer. Just stay in shape and keep the weight down. Cardio is more important for the functions CLE needs him for now anyway.

Durant is a murderer. Probably slightly less of an offensive player than his teammate, but much better defensively. His defensive rebounding is strong (late in the REG SEA, didn't he put up a crazy string of games with 30/10/5?). His defense at the PF has greatly improved, which is huge. A defensive SF/PF hybrid who hits 3's is probably the most powerful player archetype in the current NBA metagame. Durant adds super efficient scoring on superstar USG%. His USG% in the playoffs was perfect for what OKC needed. In the playoffs, he wasn't making as many shots as we're accustomed to seeing, but that's OK. Superstars need to take shots, not make shots (to an extent!).

Draymond is somebody who I was seriously considering as a GOAT peak player in NBA history earlier this season. Anybody reading this may stop now and say Ronnymac, you've said some crazy **** in the past, but you were somewhat reasonable, what happened Ronnymac? Why aren't you reasonable anymore? Life trauma? Drugs?

No, it's none of that. I was having interesting convos with people on here, and I began to let go of my nonsensical distrust of plus/minus numbers. Lego my ego. Green was a new player archetype: a DPOY PF/C hybrid who brings 7 assists per game and 40 percent 3-point shooting and elite handles. Could lock up man-vs-man in the post with his girth and quick hands. Just an insane player.

I saw his USG% can be limited in a playoff setting, and not in a way where the defense needs to be super focused on him. It's not major adjustments. Slight penalty for GM5 as well (very slight). Dray obviously can improve going forward of course. But I've seen enough where I think maybe his offense needs some tweaks, mainly in regards to decision-making. Also, become a better shooter. Just want to say Dray had one of the best GM 7's in playoff history in the final game of the season.

Curry gets penalized a bit for the missed time as well. But really, it comes down to this...I don't have enough information to determine whether Curry's game can be neutralized in the playoffs to the extent that he no longer has GOAT offensive impact in a series. 2015 was questionable. 2016...all honesty, I don't think he was 100% with the legs, and considering Curry dominates with timing and precision and balance and cognition as opposed to his frame and strength, a leg injury that takes away even 10% of the timing of his movements would horribly affect his game. He might have been healthy (and scorching hot) vs. OKC for the final 3 games, and then his body began acting up again throughout the finals. We'll never know. I'm not making excuses for him, but what I'm saying is that I simply cannot determine if his GOAT offensive impact is resilient enough in the playoffs. He was truly poor in the finals. Injury and/or a wrinkle in his game? Not enough information.

Still, great season for Curry.

Taking Westbrook over Leonard was hard. Leonard is the aforementioned SF/PF archetype with low turnovers, star-level volume, and iso mid-post moves. Elite free throw shooter, too. I just like Westbrook more for the offense. Westbrook is undisciplined on defense though. He needs to improve that to get up higher.

DPOY:

1. Draymond Green
2. Kawai Leonard
3. Hassan Whiteside

ROY:

1. Karl-Anthony Towns
2. Kristaps Porzingis
3. Justise Winslow

HM: Nikola Jokic, Myles Turner

6th Man:

1. Andre Iguodala
2. Manu Ginobili
3. Tristan Thompson

MIP:

1. CJ McCollum
2. Will Barton
3. Ian Mahinmi

Not enough information to determine COY and EOY.

[Doctor MJ]

How do you consider the job Pop did in the playoffs? Did you think he was outcoached or do you consider it a case where they were lucky to be where they were with any other coach so the fact they were upset doesnt bother you as much.

Also If they have a style that yields itself well to overachieving in the regular season but they cant keep up the pace, which was GOAT team in any other year GS wasnt playing, how do you evaluate it?

Personally from a perspective level I think pop's stubborn lack of adjustments until the very end was indicative of his flaws that he comes up with good plans often but he sticks to things like glue. If something isnt working with the plan he is hesitamt to change it. OKC seemed to find lineups that Pop couldnt counter and for a team that SRS wise should have been a big favorite, I consider it a disappointment, that they couldnt make the WCF.

As lorak has mentioned in the Other thread Kanter played a lot of minutes and was barely engaged in many pick and rolls. That's like having james harden's assignment not move off the ball. They also could have went smaller with aldridge and kawhi at the 4 to force kanter to guard leonard or keep him off the floor together.

Pop had many options, it was like a man who has a bunch of keys and is trying to open a door to get him into the next room but when the first key kind of fits he spends a ton of time jigging it to no avail until quickly trying to go through random ones at the last minute. Yeah he cant get to all of them at once and he still might not get to the right key in time but it certainly gives him a better chance than hoping that the one that kind offits will fit.

My philosophy, as I've shared before, is that I judge guys more by the moves they make that lead to success than the things that don't work out. While there are coaches that were totally in over there heads, and there are coaches that have weaknesses that can be seen simply by how they always coach, I don't believe I can really judge effectively the difference between being outcoached and simply having the weaker side of the matchup.

I'll add that with this off-season, with the Cavs coming out on top, unless you're willing to call Lue the best coach in the game, we can literally second guess every coach. I'm known as a pro-Kerr guy, but I second guessed him the moment it became clear he was content to let LeBron keep working until he found his rhythm. Does that make Kerr a worse coach that some guy not in that position who putatively would have done better? Perhaps, but I can't make that call.

[Doctor MJ]

Pop is GOAT? I hope you are not serious, not after season, when he again was exposed in the playoffs. He shouldn't be in anyone's top 3 this year.

What's your GOAT coaching list look like lorak?

[Doctor MJ]

Here's an unofficial vote for me. Interested to see people's thoughts on it:

POY
1. LeBron James
2. Steph Curry
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kawhi Leonard
5. Russell Westbrook

HM: Paul, Green, Irving, Lowry, Klay

Well and good to say that 2 games shouldn't be more important than an entire season, but literally you can argue easily that LeBron was more impressive than Curry in each of the 4 rounds of the playoffs. Hard for me to overlook that.

But so much of that is LeBron playing easier competition and Curry hitting a wet spot on the floor. Of course you can treat the injury in a myriad of ways, but the statement overlooks (see what I did there?) the larger picture of the entire season and the odds a player helps his team win more.

Totally respect that you're not letting small sample size sway you but to me that weaker competition thing is hard to hold on to win LeBron looks better than Curry by a good margin when the two team's actually face each other.

LeBron to me pretty easily had the best post-season out of everyone, and we know that he's the textbook example of a guy who now saves it until it matters. Very tough to go against him.

As I say that, I do think that what Curry did in the RS is north of anything LeBron could do. But whatever the reason why Curry fell short of that in the playoffs, he fell short of that in the playoffs and so it's not quite his year.

OPOY
1. Steph Curry
2. LeBron James
3. Russell Westbrook

This is interesting. So Steph's offense is still better than James (by a little?) but LJ makes it up on defense in POY. What's the thinking here? Westbrook also catches my eye given your past problems with him (and my advocacy of his value), where you have him over a player like Durant who I assume you also find wildly more portable.

That's definitely the thinking re: Curry & James, and as usual you're I think raising eyebrows at the convenience of splitting the difference. I'm open to arguments to change my mind, but while I agree that eyebrows should be raised, obviously LeBron is a better defender than Curry.

Westbrook vs Durant. Obviously you're right that Durant is more portable, but in terms of impact this year on offense I don't really have any reason to see Durant being clearly above Westbrook. The utterly massive efficiency edge he's had in the past is considerably smaller now and Westbrook is the more active offensive player scoring aside. There's also the matter that while I'm critical of Westbrook's tendency to ballhawk as a defender, this does in fact help the team's offense.

DPOY
1. Kawhi Leonard
2. Draymond Green
3. Rudy Gobert

In short: Green has more of a defensive brain, higher defensive usage, better rim protector and can successfully guard all kinds of players. Leonard falls just behind in all areas -- why give Leonard the nod here?

I may change my mind, but Kawhi has a couple things:

1) I do see him as the better man defender and I see him as an incredible ballhawk in his ability to get steals without getting his team's defense burned.

2) I've always been concerned about how dependent Green is on being a walking mismatch. He isn't built like a traditional 4/5 and that at times causes problems. Against most teams the mismatch has more pros than cons, but seeing him against OKC over a series I really felt like it was no fluke that GS has had issues with long opponents, and the odds that a major contender will be long going forward is pretty good. Kawhi on the other hand plays the 3 in a way where there isn't really anything "tween" about him. I don't really see him having poor matchups, it's just that his ability to dominate goes down against better competition like pretty much everyone else does.

[HeartBreakKid]

Safe to say GSW is a shoe in for executive of the year next season .