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State of the Roster

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Re: State of the Roster 

Post#61 » by tmorgan » Tue Jul 5, 2016 8:29 am

yitur wrote:I think your bench could be fun

Ellenson
Leuer
Johnson
Bullock
Smith

That 5 could be a run&gun lineup that has good spacing good perimeter defense and bad interior defense. Could give the spark you need from time to time.


That's the plan, I imagine. Ish is a tempo guy, and all of those players (if Ellenson gets run) are tempo players. It could be pretty sweet.

I don't tihnk SVG will do a full 5 man sub very often, though. Maybe. If this new unit plays well together.
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Re: State of the Roster 

Post#62 » by whitehops » Wed Jul 6, 2016 2:24 am

i've been meaning to post about this and maybe i'll make a thread about it one day but i love SVG's vision for this roster and how pretty much every move since day one has followed that vision.

versatility has been the #1 priority and even having a "stretch 4" isn't good enough. guys like tolliver/ilyasova can be useful in spacing the floor but that's pretty much all they provide. when you have 4's that can not only shoot but also put the ball on the floor (to attack closeouts mainly) it creates a lot of problems for the defense. this year we are guaranteed to have that at all times since morris/harris/leuer/ellenson can all do that reasonably well. we even have the flexibility to play leuer at center and have five players on the floor that can both shoot and drive.

in tyronn lue's postgame conference after game four he said a lot of complimentary things about the pistons, most of which i take with a grain of salt, but he had one specific quote about our roster that stood out to me. you can see it from 1:25-2:05:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIsLFnnF_tw[/youtube]


i know none of our guys are the best shooters (shout out to Todd!) but since we don't have a superstar perimeter player that can create offense it is more important for us to have a bunch of guys that can create offense in different ways. our offense will still revolve around the reggie/drummond pick and roll since they are both very good at it but having a bunch of versatile players around that isn't going to be easy for defenses. i think it's safe to say we have SVG's vision now, it's just about our young guys improving. everyone is locked up for the next three years so they should have plenty of time to do that.
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Re: State of the Roster 

Post#63 » by coordinator0 » Thu Jul 7, 2016 8:11 pm

So, the update:

PG: Reggie Jackson / Ish Smith / Lorenzo Brown
SG: Kentavious Caldwell-Pope / Reggie Bullock / Michael Gbinije
SF: Marcus Morris / Stanley Johnson / Darrun Hilliard
PF: Tobias Harris / Jon Leuer / Henry Ellenson
C: Andre Drummond / Aron Baynes / Boban Marjanovic

The roster now stands at 15 players under (or soon to be) contract. By my sheet, which is linked below, the Pistons have roughly just over $2.5 million in cap space. That's assuming Mayo's earlier report that Blake has been renounced as well as Anthony and Bairstow being released is true. They're also around $8 million under the luxury tax with Drummond's extension included so they're pretty safe in that regard. The cap hits in the first year for Smith and Leuer are just estimates at this point, and nobody knows how much of his draft slot Ellenson has or will sign for yet. I think it's safe to say Gbinije is only getting a minimum contract but that's still up in the air as well.

With all that in mind the only "easy" move the Pistons have left to open up cap space is cutting Lorenzo Brown and his unguaranteed contract. If they do that there will be roughly $3.6 million in cap space available. Of course Brown may very well end up keeping his roster spot as the third point guard since that's pretty much the only move left Detroit would make. Not a ton of space to absorb someone decent in a trade even with Brown cut, and it seems pretty unlikely Bullock or Hilliard would go out in one unless a rotation-quality combo guard is coming back. Still plenty of point guards left on the market though and it seems like things are drying up a bit for money being handed out.

I should also mention that the Pistons still have the room exception to use as well. Off the top of my head it's something like $2.898 million for the first season and then whatever it goes up to for the season(s) after if it's for more than one year. I'm pretty sure Zaza Pachulia, Seth Curry, and DeWayne Dedmon were signed using it so decent (or at least intriguing) players have come off the board via that route this summer.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DWFeG156MPjSSd3aOjewz5WzQbc6AiWOqgrOHc2TebM/edit?usp=sharing
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Re: State of the Roster 

Post#64 » by coordinator0 » Fri Jul 8, 2016 11:51 pm

I had to make a correction to the sheet.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q50

Unlike first round picks, who have a scale salary (see question number 49), second round picks do not have any specific salary restrictions. They may sign for any amount from the minimum to the maximum, but players who last to the second round of the draft seldom command more than the minimum salary.

Also unlike first round picks, teams do not receive a salary cap exception specifically for their second round picks. These players must be signed using cap room or an available exception (see question number 25), such as the Minimum Salary exception or the Mid-Level exception. It is most common for a second round pick to receive the minimum salary and be signed using the Minimum Salary exception. However, since the Minimum Salary exception limits contracts to two seasons, it is not uncommon for teams to use a portion of their Mid-Level exception in order to sign the player for three seasons. This gives the team full Bird rights at the end of the contract, and avoids the Gilbert Arenas provision (see question number 45).

Unsigned second round draft picks do not have a cap hold.


So for Detroit to sign Gbinije they have to use their remaining cap space or what would likely be a portion of the room exception. I'm thinking they would want him on a 3-year deal though, like they did with DInwiddie and Hilliard, so using cap space is more likely.

If Brown is cut and assuming Gbinije gets a minimum contract, the Pistons could have a rough maximum of just over $3 million in cap space. Which is basically the same amount as the room exception, so if the team signs a different point guard it will probably be with that. Seems like Lorenzo might have a solid chance at securing the last roster spot though. The third point guard spot is the only one open and up for grabs without a trade happening.
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Re: Re: Re: State of the Roster 

Post#65 » by Pharaoh » Sat Jul 9, 2016 7:44 am

coordinator0 wrote:I had to make a correction to the sheet.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q50

Unlike first round picks, who have a scale salary (see question number 49), second round picks do not have any specific salary restrictions. They may sign for any amount from the minimum to the maximum, but players who last to the second round of the draft seldom command more than the minimum salary.

Also unlike first round picks, teams do not receive a salary cap exception specifically for their second round picks. These players must be signed using cap room or an available exception (see question number 25), such as the Minimum Salary exception or the Mid-Level exception. It is most common for a second round pick to receive the minimum salary and be signed using the Minimum Salary exception. However, since the Minimum Salary exception limits contracts to two seasons, it is not uncommon for teams to use a portion of their Mid-Level exception in order to sign the player for three seasons. This gives the team full Bird rights at the end of the contract, and avoids the Gilbert Arenas provision (see question number 45).

Unsigned second round draft picks do not have a cap hold.


So for Detroit to sign Gbinije they have to use their remaining cap space or what would likely be a portion of the room exception. I'm thinking they would want him on a 3-year deal though, like they did with DInwiddie and Hilliard, so using cap space is more likely.

If Brown is cut and assuming Gbinije gets a minimum contract, the Pistons could have a rough maximum of just over $3 million in cap space. Which is basically the same amount as the room exception, so if the team signs a different point guard it will probably be with that. Seems like Lorenzo might have a solid chance at securing the last roster spot though. The third point guard spot is the only one open and up for grabs without a trade happening.


The bolded part is incorrect mate. There is something called the Minimum Player Exception which is what we would use to sign Benji & what teams use all the time to sign any player to any level of the minimum (cost depends on years of service)
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Re: Re: Re: State of the Roster 

Post#66 » by coordinator0 » Sat Jul 9, 2016 1:23 pm

Pharaoh wrote:The bolded part is incorrect mate. There is something called the Minimum Player Exception which is what we would use to sign Benji & what teams use all the time to sign any player to any level of the minimum (cost depends on years of service)



Right, but the minimum salary exception can only be signed for up to two years. It's the same reasoning as why the Pistons aren't just going to use a portion of the room exception. That's not what the new regime has done with their previous second round picks and if they were as high on Gbinije as they said (saw him as a first round player) I highly doubt they break from now. Not all teams use the minimum exception to sign minimum contracts, and the Pistons are one of them who haven't (and aren't over the cap anyways).

Like it said in the CAP FAQ I quoted signing a player for three seasons gives the team full Bird Rights and they avoid the Arenas provision. That's significant, especially when a team has the cap space to just sign the player to a minimum contract outright.
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Re: State of the Roster 

Post#67 » by Kilo » Sat Jul 9, 2016 1:45 pm

Gbinije should get a 3 yr deal, but 3rd year should be TO with low or no guarantee. I don't think we sign anybody else. Lorenzo Brown's contract isn't guaranteed until January 10th, same day 10-day contracts are made available. We'll probably sign Benji and use the rest on a couple league minimum, low guarantee deals to camp players so we can cut them after camp and use them as assigned players to Grand Rapids. Summer Leaguer Bachynski could be a candidate for this type of deal, however he's reportedly looking at serious Euroball offers.
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Re: State of the Roster 

Post#68 » by mercury » Sat Jul 9, 2016 1:47 pm

Based on what SVG said at the PC it sounds like they are definitely looking to give Leuer some time at the 5 "with the trend of all of these small ball lineups". I would be surprised if Baynes was still around after the deadline... so he may be the main backup until February to build trade value.
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Re: State of the Roster 

Post#69 » by hoophabit » Sat Jul 9, 2016 2:10 pm

mercury wrote:Based on what SVG said at the PC it sounds like they are definitely looking to give Leuer some time at the 5 "with the trend of all of these small ball lineups". I would be surprised if Baynes was still around after the deadline... so he may be the main backup until February to build trade value.


Very possible if the right trade is there. I don't think anything too immediate is in the works as I expect they'll want to see just what they have before shaking things up any more. Of course, SVG/Bower may see it differently.
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Re: State of the Roster 

Post#70 » by Kilo » Sat Jul 9, 2016 2:48 pm

One thing about trading Baynes - not sure our salary structure could fit in an equal or bigger longer term contract back. I think we could look for an expiring as a position of need or just for a couple future second rounders (make up the ones we traded away for Mook and Reggie). We don't have second rounders in 2018 and 2020 now IIRC. So Baynes for a second rounder in each of those drafts would make some sense. I don't think we could get a first for him as an expiring without full bird rights.
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Re: State of the Roster 

Post#71 » by coordinator0 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:52 pm

According to the cap sheets of Bobby Marks and Albert Nahmad the Pistons signed Jon Leuer to a declining contract while Ish Smith will be paid a flat $6 million per season. Here's their breakdowns of Jon's contract:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/teams/det/salary
http://heathoops.com/salary-index/free-agent-tracker/

2016: $10,991,957
2017: $10,497,319
2018: $10,002,681
2019: $9,508,043

Which means right now Detroit is $1,143, 289 below the cap. Releasing Brown gets them to $2,158,985, but the cap space needed to sign Gbinije to a 3-year minimum deal lowers that amount to $1,615,514. Unless a trade is made that's how much the Pistons have to sign a point guard if they want to replace Brown, although using the room exception is more likely. Contracts signed with that exception can be a maximum of $2,898,000 and only two years in length at the most. It can be split and portioned among multiple players, but since Detroit only has one roster spot open (disregarding trades) that's not particularly relevant.
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Re: State of the Roster 

Post#72 » by coordinator0 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 10:55 pm

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Vincent_Ellis56/status/753675263628763140[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/753628870201348096[/tweet]

Makes sense, signing Gbinije was the last bit of business to attend to using what little cap space was left. Still have the room exception left to use if they don't want Brown as the third point guard the there aren't a whole lot of guys left. Here's who I have available on my sheet:

Blake, Steve
Chalmers, Mario
Cole, Norris
Cotton, Bryce
Douglas, Toney
Dinwiddie, Spencer
Farmar, Jordan
Goudelock, Andrew
Gutierrez, Jorge
Hinrich, Kirk
Larkin, Shane
Lawson, Ty
Miller, Andre
Munford, Xavier
Price, Ronnie
Sloan, Donald
Wroten, Tony

Cole or Larkin would be nice. Lawson wouldn't be bad either but he might be able to get more than $2.898 million even though the market overall is drying up.

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