04 Pistons

[Bigmagicfan82]

I think the blueprint that Orlando is following is that of the 2004 Pistons team that won the championship. Both teams relied heavy on depth and defense. Also neither team had that go to guy but had a collective attack. Also take a look at this.

Ben Wallace vs Bismack Biyombo: Both players have had similar careers. Prior to his Pistons' days Wallace was more of a journey man. He was always come considered a good rebounder and shot blocker that was limited offensively. He got a chance to play in Orlando and made a name for himself and went on to sign with the Pistons where he became known for his defense and rebounding. Biyombo is the same in that he had not such a great start to his careers in Charlotte. Last season with the Raptors he got a chance to start in the playoffs and made a name for himself. Like Wallace he is an undersized center (both he and Wallace are 6'8") that are very athletic and are known for defense, rebounding, and hustling.

Rasheed Wallace vs Serge Ibaka: I am in no way saying that Ibaka is as good as Wallace offensively. But both are PF that can play center, protect the rim, and have a jump shot that can extend out to 3 point range.

Tayshaun Prince vs Aaron Gordon: In 2004 Prince was known more for his length and defense. Same with Gordon. If you look at Prince's eFG% and pts per game they were very similar to that of Aaron Gordon. The only difference is that Gordon shot better from 2pt range and Prince shot better from 3pt range.

Rip Hamilton vs Evan Fornier: Both players are long shooting guards that can score. If you look at Hamilton's numbers and Fornier's number they were very similar. Hamilton scored more points but also had a higher usage rate as compared to Fornier. Their per 36 minutes numbers are:
Rip Hamilton 17.9 pts 4.0 ast 3 rbs
Evan Fornier 17.0 pts 3.0 ast 3.2 rbs

Chauncey Billups vs Elf Payton: Both were/are big pg that use physical abilities to get into the paint. Where there games are different is that Payton is more of a passer while Billups was more of a scoring pg. Interestingly enough, in that 2003-04 season that the Pistons won, Billups attempted 1.7 3 pointers per game (Payton attempted 1.3). Billups shot significantly better from 3 but Payton shot better from 2.

Mehmet Okur vs Nikola Vucevic: both were 7 foot shooting big men not really know as rim protectors. Okur. Vuc averaged more points which is expected because he had a higher usage rate. Here are Okur's and Vuc's per 36:

Okur: 15.5 pts 9.6 rbs 1.6 ast 1.4 blks .463 fg% .378 3pt% .472 2pt%

Vuc: 20.9 pts 10.2 rbs 3.2 ast 1.2 blks .510 fg% .222 3pt% .512 2pt%

In this case Vuc is a better version of Okur. We all expect Vuc to go the bench. As such, Vuc's usage percent will go down and his numbers will be more in line with Okur.

If you are going to try and duplicate something, it is not a bad idea to bring someone in that was a part of that. The team tried to recruit hard Chauncey Billups to be on the coaching staff. So instead they brought in Corliss Williams, who was apart of that 2004 Pistons championship team.

It seems to me that the 04 Pistons is the blueprint. What do you guys think?

[Trailbreaker]

Seeing that Pistons team win the Finals was amazing. Makes me wish we kept Billups and Wallace on the Magic in the first place.

[Nyce_1]

Corliss Williamson was also the 6th man for that team; now assistant coach for our guys.

Scott Perry was in that front office; now assistant GM for our organization.

Though it wasnt with the championship team, Chad Forcier was an assistant coach with the Pistons from 2001-2003; meaning he worked with RIP, Chauncey (would've been even more huge if he accepted coaching gig), and then 2-time DPoY Ben Wallace.

[Xatticus]

The correlate between Wallace and Biyombo is really interesting. Beyond that, I wouldn't draw too much from this sort of comparison, for a few reasons. The NBA just isn't very similar to what it was at that time.

What Detroit did offensively really isn't viable anymore. Hamilton and Billups both got to the free throw line far more frequently than anyone on this Orlando team does. Even so, that Detroit team would be one of the very worst offenses in today's NBA. I like Payton, but Billups was a vastly superior player at that time than Payton is now.

Interior defenders aren't the dominant force that they were at that time. Elite defensive bigs have to be able to switch onto smaller players and defend away from the basket. Most modern offenses can easily exploit a defense that camps a big under the basket. What made Wallace so special at that time almost certainly wouldn't in the current NBA. Additionally, the perimeter defenders on that Detroit team were probably quite a bit better than this Orlando team.

I liked Wallace a lot in that heart and hustle season and really didn't want to see him go. The Euphoria of acquiring Grant Hill certainly mitigated the loss of a few fan favorites that summer. Still, as much as I liked Wallace, I never would've imagined he would become the dominant force that he did. I really like the Wallace/Biyombo comparison.

Given Dumars track record, I look back at that iteration of Detroit as nothing more than catching lightnight in a bottle.

[LBPTarHeel27]

Good intentions. Love the optimism and outlook. But wayyyyyy too soon to compare.

[Bensational]

I love this comparison, and I think that's exactly the kind of mould we're looking to build.

And our bench will be much more potent offensively than than Detroit team.

[Bensational]

Given Dumars track record, I look back at that iteration of Detroit as nothing more than catching lightnight in a bottle.

True.

Scott Perry, one of our execs, was also a part of Dumars' team during that run. Actually, Perry and Lloyd have come from elite defensive teams (Pistons and Thibs' Bulls).

[Darth Magic]

I think the blueprint that Orlando is following is that of the 2004 Pistons team that won the championship. Both teams relied heavy on depth and defense. Also neither team had that go to guy but had a collective attack. Also take a look at this.

Ben Wallace vs Bismack Biyombo: Both players have had similar careers. Prior to his Pistons' days Wallace was more of a journey man. He was always come considered a good rebounder and shot blocker that was limited offensively. He got a chance to play in Orlando and made a name for himself and went on to sign with the Pistons where he became known for his defense and rebounding. Biyombo is the same in that he had not such a great start to his careers in Charlotte. Last season with the Raptors he got a chance to start in the playoffs and made a name for himself. Like Wallace he is an undersized center (both he and Wallace are 6'8") that are very athletic and are known for defense, rebounding, and hustling.

Rasheed Wallace vs Serge Ibaka: I am in no way saying that Ibaka is as good as Wallace offensively. But both are PF that can play center, protect the rim, and have a jump shot that can extend out to 3 point range.

Tayshaun Prince vs Aaron Gordon: In 2004 Prince was known more for his length and defense. Same with Gordon. If you look at Prince's eFG% and pts per game they were very similar to that of Aaron Gordon. The only difference is that Gordon shot better from 2pt range and Prince shot better from 3pt range.

Rip Hamilton vs Evan Fornier: Both players are long shooting guards that can score. If you look at Hamilton's numbers and Fornier's number they were very similar. Hamilton scored more points but also had a higher usage rate as compared to Fornier. Their per 36 minutes numbers are:
Rip Hamilton 17.9 pts 4.0 ast 3 rbs
Evan Fornier 17.0 pts 3.0 ast 3.2 rbs

Chauncey Billups vs Elf Payton: Both were/are big pg that use physical abilities to get into the paint. Where there games are different is that Payton is more of a passer while Billups was more of a scoring pg. Interestingly enough, in that 2003-04 season that the Pistons won, Billups attempted 1.7 3 pointers per game (Payton attempted 1.3). Billups shot significantly better from 3 but Payton shot better from 2.

Mehmet Okur vs Nikola Vucevic: both were 7 foot shooting big men not really know as rim protectors. Okur. Vuc averaged more points which is expected because he had a higher usage rate. Here are Okur's and Vuc's per 36:

Okur: 15.5 pts 9.6 rbs 1.6 ast 1.4 blks .463 fg% .378 3pt% .472 2pt%

Vuc: 20.9 pts 10.2 rbs 3.2 ast 1.2 blks .510 fg% .222 3pt% .512 2pt%

In this case Vuc is a better version of Okur. We all expect Vuc to go the bench. As such, Vuc's usage percent will go down and his numbers will be more in line with Okur.

If you are going to try and duplicate something, it is not a bad idea to bring someone in that was a part of that. The team tried to recruit hard Chauncey Billups to be on the coaching staff. So instead they brought in Corliss Williams, who was apart of that 2004 Pistons championship team.

It seems to me that the 04 Pistons is the blueprint. What do you guys think?

Very good observation and I agree for the most part. I also like the comparison between Payton and Billups. Billups was the type of point guard you could give the ball to in crunch time and trust to score or make the right play. Which is why I both love and feel let down by this off season. I love the moves we have made but for me we are handcuffing ourselves by sticking with Payton as our point guard right now. This team screams for a scoring guard and we dont seem to be making a move for one. But I agree that the comparrisons between both teams are striking.

[Bigmagicfan82]

Joe Dumars' description of why he hired Larry Brown as head coach:

"I knew that we needed a coach that would be a perfectionist, who was going to be on the guys, who was going to push. But do it with some level of humanity."

Tell me that doesn't sound like Frank Vogel?

https://youtu.be/rZ12-J5OTxw

[MasterGMer]

Not even close.

To me, it is just a wishful thinking.

[tiderulz]

The correlate between Wallace and Biyombo is really interesting. Beyond that, I wouldn't draw too much from this sort of comparison, for a few reasons. The NBA just isn't very similar to what it was at that time.

What Detroit did offensively really isn't viable anymore. Hamilton and Billups both got to the free throw line far more frequently than anyone on this Orlando team does. Even so, that Detroit team would be one of the very worst offenses in today's NBA. I like Payton, but Billups was a vastly superior player at that time than Payton is now.

Interior defenders aren't the dominant force that they were at that time. Elite defensive bigs have to be able to switch onto smaller players and defend away from the basket. Most modern offenses can easily exploit a defense that camps a big under the basket. What made Wallace so special at that time almost certainly wouldn't in the current NBA. Additionally, the perimeter defenders on that Detroit team were probably quite a bit better than this Orlando team.

I liked Wallace a lot in that heart and hustle season and really didn't want to see him go. The Euphoria of acquiring Grant Hill certainly mitigated the loss of a few fan favorites that summer. Still, as much as I liked Wallace, I never would've imagined he would become the dominant force that he did. I really like the Wallace/Biyombo comparison.

Given Dumars track record, I look back at that iteration of Detroit as nothing more than catching lightnight in a bottle.

add to that, Detroit probably had top-5 players (at the time) at every position except for Prince.

[tiderulz]

Joe Dumars' description of why he hired Larry Brown as head coach:

"I knew that we needed a coach that would be a perfectionist, who was going to be on the guys, who was going to push. But do it with some level of humanity."

Tell me that doesn't sound like Frank Vogel?

https://youtu.be/rZ12-J5OTxw

sounds like Vogel, absolutely doesnt sound like Brown

[Bensational]

The correlate between Wallace and Biyombo is really interesting. Beyond that, I wouldn't draw too much from this sort of comparison, for a few reasons. The NBA just isn't very similar to what it was at that time.

What Detroit did offensively really isn't viable anymore. Hamilton and Billups both got to the free throw line far more frequently than anyone on this Orlando team does. Even so, that Detroit team would be one of the very worst offenses in today's NBA. I like Payton, but Billups was a vastly superior player at that time than Payton is now.

Interior defenders aren't the dominant force that they were at that time. Elite defensive bigs have to be able to switch onto smaller players and defend away from the basket. Most modern offenses can easily exploit a defense that camps a big under the basket. What made Wallace so special at that time almost certainly wouldn't in the current NBA. Additionally, the perimeter defenders on that Detroit team were probably quite a bit better than this Orlando team.

I liked Wallace a lot in that heart and hustle season and really didn't want to see him go. The Euphoria of acquiring Grant Hill certainly mitigated the loss of a few fan favorites that summer. Still, as much as I liked Wallace, I never would've imagined he would become the dominant force that he did. I really like the Wallace/Biyombo comparison.

Given Dumars track record, I look back at that iteration of Detroit as nothing more than catching lightnight in a bottle.

add to that, Detroit probably had top-5 players (at the time) at every position except for Prince.

Yeah, but were they top 5 players a season or two before that? Wallace and Billups were both journeymen, Prince was a mid 1st pick (wasn't he?) and Hamilton was Jordan's failed experiment.

[eyriq]

I like this parallel. Gives us something to hope for just in case Gordon|Payton|Hezonja don't turn into franchise players

[Def Swami]

Need Payton to learn how to shoot, then sure.

[Bigmagicfan82]

That season Billups attempted 1.7 3pt shots per game and he shot .388 3pt% .396 2pt% .459 eFG%

Payton last season attempted 1.3 3pt shots per game and shot .326 3pt% .451 2pt% and .456 eFG%.

Based on that I would say Payton is just as good of a shooter at Billups was during that season. The only difference is that Billups was more clutch.

[BadMofoPimp]

Being I watched just about every game and went to a few when visiting Detroit that season, it was much more than just finding a bunch of blue collar huslte guys. They committed themselves to playing perfect basketball. Not only did they have to beat the Lakers, but they had to beat the refs. If you wathed the games, they were playing as good of error free basketball as any championship team. It took them years to get to that level with each year making it deeper into the playoffs. Most importantly, they had great team chemistry. They all knew each others games and where everyone was on the floor. Any one of those guys could be leading scorer any night of the week. Nobody cared to be lead scorer or had that ego. They all just wanted to win that badly.

[tiderulz]

The correlate between Wallace and Biyombo is really interesting. Beyond that, I wouldn't draw too much from this sort of comparison, for a few reasons. The NBA just isn't very similar to what it was at that time.

What Detroit did offensively really isn't viable anymore. Hamilton and Billups both got to the free throw line far more frequently than anyone on this Orlando team does. Even so, that Detroit team would be one of the very worst offenses in today's NBA. I like Payton, but Billups was a vastly superior player at that time than Payton is now.

Interior defenders aren't the dominant force that they were at that time. Elite defensive bigs have to be able to switch onto smaller players and defend away from the basket. Most modern offenses can easily exploit a defense that camps a big under the basket. What made Wallace so special at that time almost certainly wouldn't in the current NBA. Additionally, the perimeter defenders on that Detroit team were probably quite a bit better than this Orlando team.

I liked Wallace a lot in that heart and hustle season and really didn't want to see him go. The Euphoria of acquiring Grant Hill certainly mitigated the loss of a few fan favorites that summer. Still, as much as I liked Wallace, I never would've imagined he would become the dominant force that he did. I really like the Wallace/Biyombo comparison.

Given Dumars track record, I look back at that iteration of Detroit as nothing more than catching lightnight in a bottle.

add to that, Detroit probably had top-5 players (at the time) at every position except for Prince.

Yeah, but were they top 5 players a season or two before that? Wallace and Billups were both journeymen, Prince was a mid 1st pick (wasn't he?) and Hamilton was Jordan's failed experiment.

well, Kawhi and PG werent what they were now until they were. Curry wasnt an MVP until a couple of years ago.

Rip was always a top SG, Sheed was a journeyman because of his attitude issues but he always had the talent. Ben had the talent, no one believed in him until he was unleashed in Detroit.

[shadrock]

Good intentions. Love the optimism and outlook. But wayyyyyy too soon to compare.

I think he was more comparing the conceptual makeup of the team, not necessarily the output. Obviously that is still tbc...

[Bigmagicfan82]

Being I watched just about every game and went to a few when visiting Detroit that season, it was much more than just finding a bunch of blue collar huslte guys. They committed themselves to playing perfect basketball. Not only did they have to beat the Lakers, but they had to beat the refs. If you wathed the games, they were playing as good of error free basketball as any championship team. It took them years to get to that level with each year making it deeper into the playoffs. Most importantly, they had great team chemistry. They all knew each others games and where everyone was on the floor. Any one of those guys could be leading scorer any night of the week. Nobody cared to be lead scorer or had that ego. They all just wanted to win that badly.

Never said it would happen overnight. I am just saying that is the blueprint.