Dwyane Wade: The Road to Respectability

[Tim_Hardawayy]

One more thought on this whole treadmill discussion, these are the versions of Wade I think could have led a decent supporting cast to a championship (think 1 star 2nd option, 1 defensive monster role player, other useful role players and good coach):

05
06
07 (healthy)
09
10
11
12

So if Riley were a perfect GM, we would have been in the Finals all of those seasons. Well, 07 is on Wade because he got injured and came back too soon. It didn't work out that way, but we did still get there in 06, 11 and 12, and 05 we were 1 game away (Wade rib injury). Basically 3 or 4 for 6, not too shabby.

13 and on, Wade wasn't good enough imo to be the best player on a typical championship team, and the loss of LeBron leaves us where we're at now. I still love Wade and would rather spend a few more years with him with little hope of rings, than swing at a stupid draft lottery that almost never pans out over a few million dollars.

[Shewasfly]

I'd agree with your definition actually. Many of the people who are on here fighting the good fight against becoming a treadmill team would not however. That is why they consider the Hawks & Toronto (of the past few years) treadmill.

Well, it depends. I'd argue the Hawks and Toronto were borderline treadmill teams, because they had little ability to improve themselves, and no true stars to rely on in the playoffs (lets face it, the Horfords/Teagues/Derozans/Lowry's of the world don't step their game up). On the other hand, something like the 2011 Bulls or 2012 Thunder, those were definite championship contenders who just ran into the wrong team, or didn't perform as well as they could have. (and in both cases, broke up prematurely)

And maybe that is me overrating a Rose/Durant, or underrating a Derozan/Horford. I dunno. Just the feeling I get when I watch them play.

And if you think Elton Brand and Lamar Odo would have lead us to anything...well...that's your opinion.

Never said otherwise, but those are still fairly huge free agency gets. Guys like LeBron just swapping teams in the middle of their prime in free agency used to be exceedingly rare, though the league is changing and with KD doing it as well, it might become more common.

We also were extremely close to getting Tracy McGrady, he only chose Orlando over us because we could only do a sign and trade and he was able to get slightly more money from the Magic, and while he wasn't a superstar at the time, he turned into one shortly after (and then injuries quickly ended that).

I don't think we're going to not be able to attract anybody, but I'm not going to underestimate the value Wade had in our ability to attract FAs, and even keep developing players motivated and happy. I do think we will be at a disadvantage going forward if we let Wade walk though. Nobody is going to believe our "family and loyalty" lies anymore.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

I don't think we're going to not be able to attract anybody, but I'm not going to underestimate the value Wade had in our ability to attract FAs, and even keep developing players motivated and happy. I do think we will be at a disadvantage going forward if we let Wade walk though. Nobody is going to believe our "family and loyalty" lies anymore.

Short term, absolutely. Long term, not likely, people have short memories and ultimately teams, agents and players all understand just how much of a business this really is.

It was already pointed out, but the Zo situation, while clearly not the same as this one, did end a bit messily. And he still wound up with a happy reunion with our team anyways, pretending like all is well and nothing ever happened.

And if you ever needed proof positive that no matter what happens, money, winning and the right situation/location trumps all, look at Dan Gilbert. What he did in 2010 is about a billion times worse than Riley and Wade quibbling over dollars.

[vanhowell]

[Shewasfly]

I don't think we're going to not be able to attract anybody, but I'm not going to underestimate the value Wade had in our ability to attract FAs, and even keep developing players motivated and happy. I do think we will be at a disadvantage going forward if we let Wade walk though. Nobody is going to believe our "family and loyalty" lies anymore.

Short term, absolutely. Long term, not likely, people have short memories and ultimately teams, agents and players all understand just how much of a business this really is.

It was already pointed out, but the Zo situation, while clearly not the same as this one, did end a bit messily. And he still wound up with a happy reunion with our team anyways, pretending like all is well and nothing ever happened.

And if you ever needed proof positive that no matter what happens, money, winning and the right situation/location trumps all, look at Dan Gilbert. What he did in 2010 is about a billion times worse than Riley and Wade quibbling over dollars.

Yes but the idea is for 2017 right? Thats about as short term as you can get. Poor treatment of Wade (or perceived poor treatment, if you feel paying him under his market value again isn't actually poor treatment) can and will have negative consequences on the off season we claim we're willing to treat him poorly to prep for. Thats why I just feel like so many of the arguments here don't add up.

That is generally the debate being had here (by me anyway). Not so much over what's going on behind the scenes as much as the hypocrisy and disrespect of Heat fans towards Wade. I just think it'd be better for some to say "I think he's too old and I don't care for him anymore" than to pretend he's doing anything wrong with wanting money the market says he deserves and history says our franchise owes him, if not out of previous sacrifice then out of respect.

I feel like some posters realize how cutthroat that would sound to say after all he has done for us, so they are doing this song and dance where they act like he's being so horrible to us. But then they just end up saying things about him and his legacy even more cutthroat. I will say, there are some who genuinely do want Wade to stay and still trashing him. I think that camp is just so used to Wade bowing and being a team player, anything else is a personal affront to them. I think Riley is in that second boat.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Yes but the idea is for 2017 right? Thats about as short term as you can get. Poor treatment of Wade (or perceived poor treatment, if you feel paying him under his market value again isn't actually poor treatment) can and will have negative consequences on the off season we claim we're willing to treat him poorly to prep for. Thats why I just feel like so many of the arguments here don't add up. I just think it'd be better to say "I think he's too old and I don't care for him anymore" than to pretend he's doing anything wrong with wanting money the market says he deserves.

I feel like some posters realize how cutthroat that would sound after all his sacrifice, so they are doing this song and dance where they act like he's being so horrible to us. But then they just end up saying things about him and his legacy even more cutthroat.

I don't know what exactly anyone's grand plan is, unless they spell it out. But not wanting to keep Wade might not just be about 2017 and getting another free agent, it might be the thought that they'd rather just endure crappy lottery seasons now, instead of clinging to hope for a couple more years with Wade until the inevitable fall. I can sympathize with that take even if I don't agree with it, because even the staunchest Wade supporter would have to admit we're probably going to go through some lottery seasons once he moves on unless we get really lucky with our player development.


I hate using other teams as examples, as the different situations and variables often sour the comparison, but just for the sake of it, let's look at the Mavericks versus the Celtics.

Now the Mavs obviously never had an issue keeping Dirk anyways because both parties had an easier time agreeing on money, but let's set that aside... what we're looking at is the Mavs trying to give Dirk a chance to compete when he was well past his prime. They did it, but with teams that had no hope at winning a championship, and he got some meaningless playoff trips out of it and now the Mavs are headed towards an awful season with Harrison Barnes as their big catch.

The Celtics could have clung to hope with KG/Pierce, like the Mavs did with Dirk, but they chose instead to cash in their chips. It worked out fairly well with them, as they have a nice mix of young talent on their roster, and did attract Horford, although I'd argue they are still somewhat far from being a true contender because they're still missing the biggest piece, a superstar.

The general point stands though, some people want to ride out the stars last years, make meaningless playoff trips, and worry about the rebuild at the end (Dallas). Some want to acknowledge when they are no longer a true championship contender, cash in their chips, and start the rebuild right away, so they are closer a few years down the line (Boston).

My opinion, neither model is really right. Neither team imo is actually THAT close to a ring, because both are missing the biggest piece (a once in a generation star in the prime of their career), and there really is no solid model to getting that piece.

[jagz]

Waiting for Wade to make his decision is starting to bother me.
No, not a Miami fan by any means, but I expected Wade to finish out his career in Miami.
Denver, really? That doesn't it seem like it would be right even if they're offering more money.

I don't think he's thinking rationally. He has every reason to be upset at management, but I hope he stops and thinks about the fact that the Miami Heat are more than the front office. The Heat are also the fans, the uniform (his uniform-- it's basically a team logo), the AAA, the city and Wade County.

He also should think about what the cost is of legacy. Not just his Heat Lifer legacy, but his individual legacy in the twilight of his career. He's built up more than enough goodwill in Miami that if his game suddenly craters, his reputation will remain intact. That's not the case with another team. If he declines precipitously or becomes an walking injury report again, their fan base, the NBA fan base at large and the media will see it as them having paid $50 M to a washed-up Wade....

None of this absolves the Heat as a franchise for how they've dealth with him, especially if he leaves. Forget about money and years for a moment. One of the dominant narratives of Wade's career has been that he has always been underappreciated. Miami is supposed to be the exception-- the one team, the one place, the one group of fans that gives him proper recognition. Instead, what the Heat have done in the way they have handled him is to institutionalize that narrative, in effect saying we don't really value him that highly either.

[Hallstar]

Waiting for Wade to make his decision is starting to bother me.
No, not a Miami fan by any means, but I expected Wade to finish out his career in Miami.
Denver, really? That doesn't it seem like it would be right even if they're offering more money.

I don't think he's thinking rationally. He has every reason to be upset at management, but I hope he stops and thinks about the fact that the Miami Heat are more than the front office. The Heat are also the fans, the uniform (his uniform-- it's basically a team logo), the AAA, the city and Wade County.

He also should think about what the cost is of legacy. Not just his Heat Lifer legacy, but his individual legacy in the twilight of his career. He's built up more than enough goodwill in Miami that if his game suddenly craters, his reputation will remain intact. That's not the case with another team. If he declines precipitously or becomes an walking injury report again, their fan base, the NBA fan base at large and the media will see it as them having paid $50 M to a washed-up Wade....

None of this absolves the Heat as a franchise for how they've dealth with him, especially if he leaves. Forget about money and years for a moment. One of the dominant narratives of Wade's career has been that he has always been underappreciated. Miami is supposed to be the exception-- the one team, the one place, the one group of fans that gives him proper recognition. Instead, what the Heat have done in the way they have handled him is to institutionalize that narrative, in effect saying we don't really value him that highly either.

Nobody really remembers Hakeem on the Raptors. Wade's legacy is secure regardless of what happens

[eddieheatfan]

Waiting for Wade to make his decision is starting to bother me.
No, not a Miami fan by any means, but I expected Wade to finish out his career in Miami.
Denver, really? That doesn't it seem like it would be right even if they're offering more money.

I don't think he's thinking rationally. He has every reason to be upset at management, but I hope he stops and thinks about the fact that the Miami Heat are more than the front office. The Heat are also the fans, the uniform (his uniform-- it's basically a team logo), the AAA, the city and Wade County.

He also should think about what the cost is of legacy. Not just his Heat Lifer legacy, but his individual legacy in the twilight of his career. He's built up more than enough goodwill in Miami that if his game suddenly craters, his reputation will remain intact. That's not the case with another team. If he declines precipitously or becomes an walking injury report again, their fan base, the NBA fan base at large and the media will see it as them having paid $50 M to a washed-up Wade....

None of this absolves the Heat as a franchise for how they've dealth with him, especially if he leaves. Forget about money and years for a moment. One of the dominant narratives of Wade's career has been that he has always been underappreciated. Miami is supposed to be the exception-- the one team, the one place, the one group of fans that gives him proper recognition. Instead, what the Heat have done in the way they have handled him is to institutionalize that narrative, in effect saying we don't really value him that highly either.

Nobody really remembers Hakeem on the Raptors. Wade's legacy is secure regardless of what happens

that's true.the only thing that he can tarnish his legacy is if he does something really dumb or outta place which i dont see him doing anyway.he is getting his statue by the bay someday either way

[walk with me]

where to start....

dwade once upon a time was one of my favorite players but i'm very disapointed to see what the last 2 days has bought us as heat fans. Wade is doing A LOT OF EXTRA nonsense in the media for a measley 5 extra million dollars per season. To any of us this is a huge amount of money but to dwade is 5 million really worth letting down 10's of thousands of fans who love you in miami? Do you really want to be in **** denver or barely making the playoffs in chicago for 5 extra M's? This dude made florida jump and he's salty at riley & mickey for not coughing up 5 extra M's?

It's really infuriating. Obvoiusly these guys play for two things. The money and to win. Wade has accomplished both so what's the hold up. Why is he making the franchise look corny in the media? Why hasn't he turned on his own agent who set him up in this position in the first place, he was ok taking those pay cuts before. Why is he upset about it now, nobody forced him to do any of that.

I really would like to see wade back but if it doesn't happen I won't even care. Dude is proving to be a total diva, something i defended him from for a while. Whether he comes back or not I can't imagine many heat fans being upset at the organization for not being able to bring him. Can't believe this dude man....

[eddieheatfan]

where to start....

dwade once upon a time was one of my favorite players but i'm very disapointed to see what the last 2 days has bought us as heat fans. Wade is doing A LOT OF EXTRA nonsense in the media for a measley 5 extra million dollars per season. To any of us this is a huge amount of money but to dwade is 5 million really worth letting down 10's of thousands of fans who love you in miami? Do you really want to be in **** denver or barely making the playoffs in chicago for 5 extra M's? This dude made florida jump and he's salty at riley & mickey for not coughing up 5 extra M's?

It's really infuriating. Obvoiusly these guys play for two things. The money and to win. Wade has accomplished both so what's the hold up. Why is he making the franchise look corny in the media? Why hasn't he turned on his own agent who set him up in this position in the first place, he was ok taking those pay cuts before. Why is he upset about it now, nobody forced him to do any of that.

I really would like to see wade back but if it doesn't happen I won't even care. Dude is proving to be a total diva, something i defended him from for a while. Whether he comes back or not I can't imagine many heat fans being upset at the organization for not being able to bring him. Can't believe this dude man....

it has been two years or offseasons with this melodrama

[Hallstar]

where to start....

dwade once upon a time was one of my favorite players but i'm very disapointed to see what the last 2 days has bought us as heat fans. Wade is doing A LOT OF EXTRA nonsense in the media for a measley 5 extra million dollars per season. To any of us this is a huge amount of money but to dwade is 5 million really worth letting down 10's of thousands of fans who love you in miami? Do you really want to be in **** denver or barely making the playoffs in chicago for 5 extra M's? This dude made florida jump and he's salty at riley & mickey for not coughing up 5 extra M's?

It's really infuriating. Obvoiusly these guys play for two things. The money and to win. Wade has accomplished both so what's the hold up. Why is he making the franchise look corny in the media? Why hasn't he turned on his own agent who set him up in this position in the first place, he was ok taking those pay cuts before. Why is he upset about it now, nobody forced him to do any of that.

I really would like to see wade back but if it doesn't happen I won't even care. Dude is proving to be a total diva, something i defended him from for a while. Whether he comes back or not I can't imagine many heat fans being upset at the organization for not being able to bring him. Can't believe this dude man....

I am at the point where I am absolutely certain promises were made that are NOT being kept. At this point, I don't want him to leave because I don't want the **** storm that will be leaked surrounding this franchise.

What this also does is throw all that family, sacrifice blah blah talk out the window. It's only "family" when the FO benefits. We can never go to another player again spouting that nonsense when everybody sees how it's rewarded.

Players will be on some FU, pay me stuff from the gate. I don't know what we told Durant, but we weren't even mentioned as a possible destination after the whale hunt.

People aren't even factoring in Riley's age. He was all set to retire if Lebron resigned, dude is NOT sticking around for some extensive rebuild and that's exactly what Wade leaving leads to. If Lebron leaves, Wade leaves, Riley is not sticking around

[walk with me]

it has been two years or offseasons with this melodrama

after he said that he didn't want to go through this all again this year lol... i mean can this dude be any more of a diva? He's been one of my favs for a while but I can't condone this behavior. Even if we did (the heat org) make a big mistake, this can still be handled behind closed doors. WIthout the rumors floating around.

I am at the point where I am absolutely certain promises were made that are NOT being kept. At this point, I don't want him to leave because I don't want the **** storm that will be leaked surrounding this franchise.

What this also does is throw all that family, sacrifice blah blah talk out the window. It's only "family" when the FO benefits. We can never go to another player again spouting that nonsense when everybody sees how it's rewarded.

Players will be on some FU, pay me stuff from the gate. I don't know what we told Durant, but we weren't even mentioned as a possible destination after the whale hunt.

you could be right but at the end of the day I just can't condone the way he's went about everything. It's been super petty and it's not a good look.

[TeK]

where to start....

dwade once upon a time was one of my favorite players but i'm very disapointed to see what the last 2 days has bought us as heat fans. Wade is doing A LOT OF EXTRA nonsense in the media for a measley 5 extra million dollars per season. To any of us this is a huge amount of money but to dwade is 5 million really worth letting down 10's of thousands of fans who love you in miami? Do you really want to be in **** denver or barely making the playoffs in chicago for 5 extra M's? This dude made florida jump and he's salty at riley & mickey for not coughing up 5 extra M's?

It's really infuriating. Obvoiusly these guys play for two things. The money and to win. Wade has accomplished both so what's the hold up. Why is he making the franchise look corny in the media? Why hasn't he turned on his own agent who set him up in this position in the first place, he was ok taking those pay cuts before. Why is he upset about it now, nobody forced him to do any of that.

I really would like to see wade back but if it doesn't happen I won't even care. Dude is proving to be a total diva, something i defended him from for a while. Whether he comes back or not I can't imagine many heat fans being upset at the organization for not being able to bring him. Can't believe this dude man....

I mean yea, 5mil is 5mil. That is a lot of money, even to DWade, and especially after taking a discount to form the heatles. If you had $100,000 wouldn't you want to add another $5,000?

He's clearly using the media as leverage in hope of increasing his pay at the destination he wants to really play for (Miami) however if they don't pay up, then he will call their bluff and nope the heck out of there.

[TroubleS0me]

smh Kade

going the Kobe route instead taking less like Duncan for a championship

[push]

Bye

[Heat_Fan_87]

D Wade ain't going anywhere

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

you guys arent winning **** with him LOL

[Hallstar]

smh Kade

going the Kobe route instead taking less like Duncan for a championship

Stop the bloody stupidity, this team wasn't winning **** when fringe role players make 10 million


Riley **** up

[gom]

Hey, people, there is an appreciation thread here:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1462694

[DamnitSon]

smh Kade

going the Kobe route instead taking less like Duncan for a championship

Stop the bloody stupidity, this team wasn't winning **** when fringe role players make 10 million


Riley **** up

what is the point of this? i love wade, all true heat fans do.

i remember his **** lil fadeaway turnaround shot vs the 76ers

the **** countless behind the head layups

how he **** up i think laetnerr with that dunk

how he destroyed varajeos knees

the 50 straight points he dropped on the pistons in the regular season

how he turned around that dallas series






etc etc

but man, it's time to get with the program. TEAM TANK.


TEAM TANK.



TEAM TANK.