The 2016 Offseason Thread

[NavLDO]

......., but my "freaking the **** out on people" regarding Dragic had nothing to do with how he looked as a player, but blah tee blah tee blah blah blah

you just couldn't help yourself could you ? ...
Bombs away


Haven't we learned by now to take McMully's comments blah, blah, blah

Id say the FO is really eyeballing Chriss, Bender, and likely Williams to see if these guys can actually contribute sooner than later.

LOL...nope, couldn't help myself. You should know enough about me by now, Frank! I see you couldn't, either!

On the latter point, I agree. Surely one of them has to be a better option than 6' 7" Duds...at least for any length of time. Other team wants to go 'small-ball', sure, but when they start two 6' 10"+ 240+ guys in down low...mmm...I'll take my chances with Williams or Chriss. Maybe even Bender if he beefs up a bit...

[LukasBMW]

I don't think it makes any business sense for the Suns to move Archie. Remember, he's still younger than Kris Dunn, Buddy Heild, and Denzel Valentine.

Which is EXACTLY why he should be playing in summer league. I mean, what could be more important then getting a chance to prove to the coaches that you deserve playing time this year BEFORE training camp begins and you get less attention.

Booker beat him out fair and square last year. This year he needs to beat out Bledsoe/Knight/Booker/Ulis/Barbosa for minutes. That's not gonna be easy.

I want him to succeed and I think he still has a ton of potential, but I question his intelligence and decision making.

I agree with everything else you said.

[Qwigglez]

I don't think it makes any business sense for the Suns to move Archie. Remember, he's still younger than Kris Dunn, Buddy Heild, and Denzel Valentine.

Which is EXACTLY why he should be playing in summer league. I mean, what could be more important then getting a chance to prove to the coaches that you deserve playing time this year BEFORE training camp begins and you get less attention.

Booker beat him out fair and square last year. This year he needs to beat out Bledsoe/Knight/Booker/Ulis/Barbosa for minutes. That's not gonna be easy.

I want him to succeed and I think he still has a ton of potential, but I question his intelligence and decision making.

I agree with everything else you said.

Honesty Archie had the perfect opportunity last year to show what he's capable of and he didn't capitalize on it. If we can negotiate a contract extension with him around maybe 4mil a year then I'd be happy to keep him. I just think he needs to find an opportunity elsewhere now because it's clear he isn't part of our future with the way we've been utilizing him.

[lilfishi22]

I don't think it makes any business sense for the Suns to move Archie. Remember, he's still younger than Kris Dunn, Buddy Heild, and Denzel Valentine.

Which is EXACTLY why he should be playing in summer league. I mean, what could be more important then getting a chance to prove to the coaches that you deserve playing time this year BEFORE training camp begins and you get less attention.

Booker beat him out fair and square last year. This year he needs to beat out Bledsoe/Knight/Booker/Ulis/Barbosa for minutes. That's not gonna be easy.

I want him to succeed and I think he still has a ton of potential, but I question his intelligence and decision making.

I agree with everything else you said.

Honesty Archie had the perfect opportunity last year to show what he's capable of and he didn't capitalize on it. If we can negotiate a contract extension with him around maybe 4mil a year then I'd be happy to keep him. I just think he needs to find an opportunity elsewhere now because it's clear he isn't part of our future with the way we've been utilizing him.

+1

I think he's lost his luster with the front office. Not because he's not talented or doesn't have potential but I just think we've given him opportunities to shine, he's been awfully inconsistent and I don't think the front offices wants to continue this experiment unless we can get him for a good deal.

[thamadkant]

Goodwin produced good numbers similar to Bledsoe when he got 30 plus minutes... But still he got sat down when Price got back from injury... And thats mainly because Watson wanted shooting.


So people saying Goodwin didnt show promise are absolutely judging him using Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan barometers... Which is BS.

[bigfoot]

Goodwin produced good numbers similar to Bledsoe when he got 30 plus minutes... But still he got sat down when Price got back from injury... And thats mainly because Watson wanted shooting.


So people saying Goodwin didnt show promise are absolutely judging him using Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan barometers... Which is BS.

Check Goodwin's career 3 point shooting percentage. There is no way he can play guard in the NBA with such a poor three point shooting percentage. Unless he has fixed his shooting the Suns would be best to cut ties and find a different backup. I've gotten a sense from Archie's tweets and demeanor last year that he is the remaining problem child on the team.

[rsavaj]

Goodwin played 13 games as a starter, averaging 35 mpg

He put up 16 ppg, which is the good news.

Here's why he doesn't get those minutes regularly: he shot 41% from the field, including 29% from three. He averaged 4.4 apg, which was mostly nullified by 3.6 TOs.

To say that he played near Bledsoe's level would require underrating Bledsoe and overrating Archie to a significant degree.

[bwgood77]

Goodwin played 13 games as a starter, averaging 35 mpg

He put up 16 ppg, which is the good news.

Here's why he doesn't get those minutes regularly: he shot 41% from the field, including 29% from three. He averaged 4.4 apg, which was mostly nullified by 3.6 TOs.

To say that he played near Bledsoe's level would require underrating Bledsoe and overrating Archie to a significant degree.

41% from jump shots or 41% overall including when he drove to the basket? (which is what he usually does so if those are included 41% is horrendous).

[rsavaj]

Goodwin played 13 games as a starter, averaging 35 mpg

He put up 16 ppg, which is the good news.

Here's why he doesn't get those minutes regularly: he shot 41% from the field, including 29% from three. He averaged 4.4 apg, which was mostly nullified by 3.6 TOs.

To say that he played near Bledsoe's level would require underrating Bledsoe and overrating Archie to a significant degree.

41% from jump shots or 41% overall including when he drove to the basket? (which is what he usually does so if those are included 41% is horrendous).

overall

[bwgood77]

I don't think it makes any business sense for the Suns to move Archie. Remember, he's still younger than Kris Dunn, Buddy Heild, and Denzel Valentine. This offseason the Suns essentially get a free pass on letting him set the market for his services. Additionally, the FO gets to see how he responds to his upcoming restricted free agency every single day this season. Why move him now when he's still young, he's a RFA after this year, and we have his bird rights?

I don't think he's about to take a huge leap, but why not keep him around? Are a couple of second round picks really more valuable? Archie has proven that he has the athleticism to play in the NBA, he just needs to learn to shoot and develop a sense of the game. There's still time for that.

Moving Archie now would be like selling equity in a company before they even go to market. Trading him for a second is dumb.

The only way we move him is if he gets nasty in the locker room or as a favor to his agent.

What you say makes sense to some extent, but he is very likely to not get ANY minutes at all, and if they have decided they didn't want to match an offer next offseason because a guard with a 1.2 ast to turnover ratio, with 41% shooting and 29% from 3 isn't worth keeping around and he's had three years.

As for if a second or two are more worth it, they could be. I mean I'd already much rather have Ulis. Draymond Green was selected at 35 and Deyonta Davis at 31. Picks are worth a ton now because number of years in the league determines max salary and those kind of picks if you can nail them, could turn into 1 million per year contracts or less.

[NavLDO]

Is there a reason why we aren't throwing money at Moe Harkless?? I get that he's not some 'fantastic' RFA, but boy, would I feel a lot better about our PF position if we could sign him. He's only 23, and could at least be a 12/6 guy, I'd bet, with 26-28 mpg.

At 6'9" with a 7' Wingspan, he could be a great fit at PF or even SF for stretches. We still need to spend $5.2M (assuming we keep Williams and Jenkins), and after some of the FA signings I've seen, I'd be fine with taking a chance and offering him 3yr/$36M. Is that an overpay?? Maybe, but if we give him solid minutes, and until Chriss/Bender are ready to take the reins, which appears to be a couple of years away, Harkless would be still just 25 and easily tradable on that contract. And the Blazers are pretty much 'over the barrel' and I doubt they'd match that...or even 4yr/$50M...I don't care. I bet there's a way to structure it to make it very difficult for the Blazers to match.

Thoughts???

[lilfishi22]

Goodwin produced good numbers similar to Bledsoe when he got 30 plus minutes... But still he got sat down when Price got back from injury... And thats mainly because Watson wanted shooting.


So people saying Goodwin didnt show promise are absolutely judging him using Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan barometers... Which is BS.

No one is judging him through the lens of a Kobe or Jordan...

For a guard that was drafted at the end of the 1st round and having 3 seasons to prove himself, showing promise isn't going to get teams clamouring to sign him.

[MrMiyagi]

Is there a reason why we aren't throwing money at Moe Harkless?? I get that he's not some 'fantastic' RFA, but boy, would I feel a lot better about our PF position if we could sign him. He's only 23, and could at least be a 12/6 guy, I'd bet, with 26-28 mpg.

At 6'9" with a 7' Wingspan, he could be a great fit at PF or even SF for stretches. We still need to spend $5.2M (assuming we keep Williams and Jenkins), and after some of the FA signings I've seen, I'd be fine with taking a chance and offering him 3yr/$36M. Is that an overpay?? Maybe, but if we give him solid minutes, and until Chriss/Bender are ready to take the reins, which appears to be a couple of years away, Harkless would be still just 25 and easily tradable on that contract. And the Blazers are pretty much 'over the barrel' and I doubt they'd match that...or even 4yr/$50M...I don't care. I bet there's a way to structure it to make it very difficult for the Blazers to match.

Thoughts???

Pass. I don't think we need to add anyone else unless we unload someone in the process.

As for my 2 cents on Archie: I still really like him, but it's a crowded roster.

(I don't know what the depth chart will look like, i'm just trying to demonstrate the general breakdown)
Bledsoe/Barbosa/Ulis
Knight/Booker/Archie
PJ/TJ/Bender
Dudley/Chriss/Williams
Chandler/Len

The two most obvious guys to be moved are Chandler and PJ. They're on reasonable deals and could contribute for contending teams. Unless a deal involves Knight or Bledsoe where we don't get a guard in return, I just don't see where Archie will get his minutes.

[sunshoopjunky]

Is there a reason why we aren't throwing money at Moe Harkless?? I get that he's not some 'fantastic' RFA, but boy, would I feel a lot better about our PF position if we could sign him. He's only 23, and could at least be a 12/6 guy, I'd bet, with 26-28 mpg.

At 6'9" with a 7' Wingspan, he could be a great fit at PF or even SF for stretches. We still need to spend $5.2M (assuming we keep Williams and Jenkins), and after some of the FA signings I've seen, I'd be fine with taking a chance and offering him 3yr/$36M. Is that an overpay?? Maybe, but if we give him solid minutes, and until Chriss/Bender are ready to take the reins, which appears to be a couple of years away, Harkless would be still just 25 and easily tradable on that contract. And the Blazers are pretty much 'over the barrel' and I doubt they'd match that...or even 4yr/$50M...I don't care. I bet there's a way to structure it to make it very difficult for the Blazers to match.

Thoughts???

I have no problem with him but I think you could do pretty well with a few of the free agent SF left on the market at JD level or less contracts

http://hoopshype.com/2016/07/11/nba-free-agency-2016-small-forwards/
Prince, Jones, Miller and Butler would not hurt us and have the potential to be huge should we make the playoffs.

[bwgood77]

Is there a reason why we aren't throwing money at Moe Harkless?? I get that he's not some 'fantastic' RFA, but boy, would I feel a lot better about our PF position if we could sign him. He's only 23, and could at least be a 12/6 guy, I'd bet, with 26-28 mpg.

At 6'9" with a 7' Wingspan, he could be a great fit at PF or even SF for stretches. We still need to spend $5.2M (assuming we keep Williams and Jenkins), and after some of the FA signings I've seen, I'd be fine with taking a chance and offering him 3yr/$36M. Is that an overpay?? Maybe, but if we give him solid minutes, and until Chriss/Bender are ready to take the reins, which appears to be a couple of years away, Harkless would be still just 25 and easily tradable on that contract. And the Blazers are pretty much 'over the barrel' and I doubt they'd match that...or even 4yr/$50M...I don't care. I bet there's a way to structure it to make it very difficult for the Blazers to match.

Thoughts???

I thought we might, but after signing Dudley I don't think we will. It makes sense though as the is a defensive guy who can guard 1-4. I think Sarver actually for once might be extremely excited about youth. He never really seemed to be until Booker broke out and then he really wanted Chriss but I'm sure most everyone in the FO liked both Chriss and Bender, so he, like us, probably wants to see a lot of the young guys because now he realizes that fans can be excited about a young stud like Booker even if it isn't quickly leading to wins. Finally he has seen it first hand and can fully embrace it from a "pleasing the fan" standpoint, and then to somewhat appease those who yearn for the yesteryear can have some players they recognize in Dudley and Barbosa.

I'm happy with the off season regardless. Harkless might have made more sense than Dudley for many reasons (age, defense, upside, etc) but Dudley for others that will be really important for our young guys. You have vets to learn from in Dudley, Tucker and Chandler, a team leader paying for team workouts in Bledsoe, and you've put a good atmosphere and support system around our young guys. After the cluster of either roster logjams or punk dissatisfied players putting a cloud over the team, it is something that is important.

Of course, Harkless can still be matched as well. I'm kind of surprised Brooklyn hasn't offered him one yet, but they probably figure they need some shooting and more help at the guard spots, particularly after Crabbe and Tyler Johnson got matched. I'm definitely surprised that no one has offered him a contract yet.

[sunshoopjunky]

I don't think it makes any business sense for the Suns to move Archie. Remember, he's still younger than Kris Dunn, Buddy Heild, and Denzel Valentine.

Which is EXACTLY why he should be playing in summer league. I mean, what could be more important then getting a chance to prove to the coaches that you deserve playing time this year BEFORE training camp begins and you get less attention.

Booker beat him out fair and square last year. This year he needs to beat out Bledsoe/Knight/Booker/Ulis/Barbosa for minutes. That's not gonna be easy.

I want him to succeed and I think he still has a ton of potential, but I question his intelligence and decision making.

I agree with everything else you said.

I really feel like he would have been a great fit on the Bulls prior to them blowing up the team. I am not sure what team he could really crack the rotation on now. Maybe Miami, Detroit, Minnesota?

[NavLDO]

Is there a reason why we aren't throwing money at Moe Harkless?? I get that he's not some 'fantastic' RFA, but boy, would I feel a lot better about our PF position if we could sign him. He's only 23, and could at least be a 12/6 guy, I'd bet, with 26-28 mpg.

At 6'9" with a 7' Wingspan, he could be a great fit at PF or even SF for stretches. We still need to spend $5.2M (assuming we keep Williams and Jenkins), and after some of the FA signings I've seen, I'd be fine with taking a chance and offering him 3yr/$36M. Is that an overpay?? Maybe, but if we give him solid minutes, and until Chriss/Bender are ready to take the reins, which appears to be a couple of years away, Harkless would be still just 25 and easily tradable on that contract. And the Blazers are pretty much 'over the barrel' and I doubt they'd match that...or even 4yr/$50M...I don't care. I bet there's a way to structure it to make it very difficult for the Blazers to match.

Thoughts???

I have no problem with him but I think you could do pretty well with a few of the free agent SF left on the market at JD level or less contracts

http://hoopshype.com/2016/07/11/nba-free-agency-2016-small-forwards/
Prince, Jones, Miller and Butler would not hurt us and have the potential to be huge should we make the playoffs.

But the thing is with Harkless is that he has the length that Duds doesn't have to play PF, and these other FAs are all, to me, a tier or two down AND offer no upside as a PF.

I'm really looking at our gaping hole at PF, not the 3-4 guys that could play SF, and TRY to play PF. I'd rather bring in Bass or Lee, TBH.

[NavLDO]

Is there a reason why we aren't throwing money at Moe Harkless?? I get that he's not some 'fantastic' RFA, but boy, would I feel a lot better about our PF position if we could sign him. He's only 23, and could at least be a 12/6 guy, I'd bet, with 26-28 mpg.

At 6'9" with a 7' Wingspan, he could be a great fit at PF or even SF for stretches. We still need to spend $5.2M (assuming we keep Williams and Jenkins), and after some of the FA signings I've seen, I'd be fine with taking a chance and offering him 3yr/$36M. Is that an overpay?? Maybe, but if we give him solid minutes, and until Chriss/Bender are ready to take the reins, which appears to be a couple of years away, Harkless would be still just 25 and easily tradable on that contract. And the Blazers are pretty much 'over the barrel' and I doubt they'd match that...or even 4yr/$50M...I don't care. I bet there's a way to structure it to make it very difficult for the Blazers to match.

Thoughts???

I thought we might, but after signing Dudley I don't think we will. It makes sense though as the is a defensive guy who can guard 1-4. I think Sarver actually for once might be extremely excited about youth. He never really seemed to be until Booker broke out and then he really wanted Chriss but I'm sure most everyone in the FO liked both Chriss and Bender, so he, like us, probably wants to see a lot of the young guys because now he realizes that fans can be excited about a young stud like Booker even if it isn't quickly leading to wins. Finally he has seen it first hand and can fully embrace it from a "pleasing the fan" standpoint, and then to somewhat appease those who yearn for the yesteryear can have some players they recognize in Dudley and Barbosa.

I'm happy with the off season regardless. Harkless might have made more sense than Dudley for many reasons (age, defense, upside, etc) but Dudley for others that will be really important for our young guys. You have vets to learn from in Dudley, Tucker and Chandler, a team leader paying for team workouts in Bledsoe, and you've put a good atmosphere and support system around our young guys. After the cluster of either roster logjams or punk dissatisfied players putting a cloud over the team, it is something that is important.

Of course, Harkless can still be matched as well. I'm kind of surprised Brooklyn hasn't offered him one yet, but they probably figure they need some shooting and more help at the guard spots, particularly after Crabbe and Tyler Johnson got matched. I'm definitely surprised that no one has offered him a contract yet.

But that's why I like Harkless--he's young and will be movable if he ends up not fitting, and I don't think the Blazers could match a properly pieced together offer. IDK, to me, Harkless, like you said, brings some legit defense, and would prevent rushing Chriss/Bender out there if Duds goes down (he is 31), and would prevent forcing PF down Len's throat again OR having our 6'5" Tucker try to bang down low with other legit PFs.

And again, we still need to meet the salary floor and have a roster spot to fit--to me, Harkless makes great sense--young, decent D, PF still being a position of need--it's that or bring in another ancient dude...

[NavLDO]

Is there a reason why we aren't throwing money at Moe Harkless?? I get that he's not some 'fantastic' RFA, but boy, would I feel a lot better about our PF position if we could sign him. He's only 23, and could at least be a 12/6 guy, I'd bet, with 26-28 mpg.

At 6'9" with a 7' Wingspan, he could be a great fit at PF or even SF for stretches. We still need to spend $5.2M (assuming we keep Williams and Jenkins), and after some of the FA signings I've seen, I'd be fine with taking a chance and offering him 3yr/$36M. Is that an overpay?? Maybe, but if we give him solid minutes, and until Chriss/Bender are ready to take the reins, which appears to be a couple of years away, Harkless would be still just 25 and easily tradable on that contract. And the Blazers are pretty much 'over the barrel' and I doubt they'd match that...or even 4yr/$50M...I don't care. I bet there's a way to structure it to make it very difficult for the Blazers to match.

Thoughts???

Pass. I don't think we need to add anyone else unless we unload someone in the process.

I'm ok with that as well, but we have $5.2M to burn. Either use it to sign a good defender like Harkless at a position of need, or trade, as you mentioned, and bring in someone 'better', if we can find any suitors, that is.

[NavLDO]

Is there a reason why we aren't throwing money at Moe Harkless?? I get that he's not some 'fantastic' RFA, but boy, would I feel a lot better about our PF position if we could sign him. He's only 23, and could at least be a 12/6 guy, I'd bet, with 26-28 mpg.

At 6'9" with a 7' Wingspan, he could be a great fit at PF or even SF for stretches. We still need to spend $5.2M (assuming we keep Williams and Jenkins), and after some of the FA signings I've seen, I'd be fine with taking a chance and offering him 3yr/$36M. Is that an overpay?? Maybe, but if we give him solid minutes, and until Chriss/Bender are ready to take the reins, which appears to be a couple of years away, Harkless would be still just 25 and easily tradable on that contract. And the Blazers are pretty much 'over the barrel' and I doubt they'd match that...or even 4yr/$50M...I don't care. I bet there's a way to structure it to make it very difficult for the Blazers to match.

Thoughts???

I thought we might, but after signing Dudley I don't think we will. It makes sense though as the is a defensive guy who can guard 1-4. I think Sarver actually for once might be extremely excited about youth. He never really seemed to be until Booker broke out and then he really wanted Chriss but I'm sure most everyone in the FO liked both Chriss and Bender, so he, like us, probably wants to see a lot of the young guys because now he realizes that fans can be excited about a young stud like Booker even if it isn't quickly leading to wins. Finally he has seen it first hand and can fully embrace it from a "pleasing the fan" standpoint, and then to somewhat appease those who yearn for the yesteryear can have some players they recognize in Dudley and Barbosa.

I'm happy with the off season regardless. Harkless might have made more sense than Dudley for many reasons (age, defense, upside, etc) but Dudley for others that will be really important for our young guys. You have vets to learn from in Dudley, Tucker and Chandler, a team leader paying for team workouts in Bledsoe, and you've put a good atmosphere and support system around our young guys. After the cluster of either roster logjams or punk dissatisfied players putting a cloud over the team, it is something that is important.

Of course, Harkless can still be matched as well. I'm kind of surprised Brooklyn hasn't offered him one yet, but they probably figure they need some shooting and more help at the guard spots, particularly after Crabbe and Tyler Johnson got matched. I'm definitely surprised that no one has offered him a contract yet.

But that's why I like Harkless--he's young and will be movable if he ends up not fitting, and I don't think the Blazers could match a properly pieced together offer. IDK, to me, Harkless, like you said, brings some legit defense, and would prevent rushing Chriss/Bender out there if Duds goes down (he is 31), and would prevent forcing PF down Len's throat again OR having our 6'5" Tucker try to bang down low with other legit PFs.

And again, we still need to meet the salary floor and have a roster spot to fit--to me, Harkless makes great sense--young, decent D, PF still being a position of need--it's that or bring in another ancient dude...

And while what limited I've seen of him (again, back to the whole-I-haven't-watched=much-NBA-in-the-past-couple-of-years-thing),but what about Terrence Jones? He's a Kentucky guy, right?? But doesn't he have some off-field/locker-room issues???

He's young though; only 24.