The 2016 Offseason Thread

[NavLDO]

I stilll cant get over the blazers gm thought process. They struck out ONE year in free agency and so they panic and sign a bunch of mediocre players. Portland fans think that no one wants to come play for them because they are small market. I say players see how good Lillard is and eventually want to team up with him but you cant just give up 4 years because you didnt get dumpy dwight 3 days after FA starts. I dont even know what they are going to do about Harkless. They mind as well match whatever offer he gets since theyve already blown their load on a bunch of role players.

Harkless makes no sense for us. Our roster is set for now.

Ummm...you call a 6'7" guy, a 6'5" guy, an 18YO and 19YO "set"??

Quick, who's are best defending 4?? Yeah, the 6'5" guy...sorry, I don't call that "set".

Harkless makes a ton of sense: We suck on D, Moe's good on D; we have no decent 'realistic' veteran PF, Moe's a decent 'realistic' veteran PF; We have an open roster spot, Moe's a player; we are still $5.2M under the salary floor, Moe is worth more than $5.2M.

Sorry, Bum, you and I are usually on the same page, but not on this matter. Especially considering Moe is only 23, which makes him a much better trade asset in 2 years than a 33YO Duds, IF we chose to trade him.

Chriss, nor Bender have played a SINGLE NBA game--what if Bender can't retain weight and has to stay at, or is better at, the 3? Or what if saintEscaton is right and Chriss is garbage? Now it's 2018, Tucker's long gone, Dudley is 33, and we still don't have a PF, other than the NEW rookie we just drafted because the other two didn't pan out.

I know, a lot of 'if's, but still, why not grab good defending PF with versatility to play the 3?? What if Warren never progresses, again, Tucker is gone, we have a 33YO Dudley, etc. Oh look, there's Moe, ready to jump in at the 3.

I think he makes a ton of sense for us, and fits in with our 'youth' build.

[bwgood77]

You need to look at the situation. We have seven guards under contract ... Bledsoe, Knight, Booker, Ulis, Barbosa, Goodwin, Jenkins

There is no way Goodwin earns minutes over Knight, Booker, or Barbosa at the SG nor Bledsoe at PG. Barbosa has more PG experience and Ulis is a far better floor general than Goodwin. He is not going to get any minutes unless someone gets injured. In fact, he is worse than Jenkins.

http://bkref.com/tiny/l8Ro6

Why would the Suns keep him over Jenkins? They have Jenkins under contract for two years on the cheap with team options both years. That's $1M savings for a better player. Or they could sign Kuric for two years on the cheap with a team option for the second year. People need to get real with Archie's potential. Sure he is athletic but he doesn't defend or shoot well. It doesn't make sense to keep him. Especially when he gets easily disgruntled over playing time.

Are you in my head brah?

I think it is almost guaranteed that the Suns have given Archie's agent permission to join them in a search for a trade. They have probably already told him what they want in return (I am thinking late first, early second, backup sf, etc).

So you think Archie can net us similar to what IT did?

[NavLDO]

Our guard rotation is still too big with all these players needing playing time. Even though Ulis replaces Price's spot doesn't mean he will get minutes although I hope he does. I see Bled, Knight, and Booker all getting 32 minutes each and that is both guard spot minutes for the whole game. Maybe mins are cut some for Ulis for 8-10 mins or so but as far as I see, Goodwin nor Barbosa are gonna see the floor. Goodwin may complain about his time meaning we have another cancer to deal with for the year like we have the past couple years. I just hope to see both Archie and Tucker or Chandler sent in a package for a heavily protected first or to a team with a high second (Nets).

How many saw us starting our 4th string PG (Goodwin) last year for 12 games??? Naw, I think Ulis gets plenty of burn this year, as will Barbosa and Jenkins.

[bigfoot]

This is just silly. Goodwin was a raw prospect when we drafted him. I'm sure McDonough knew that Archie won't be very productive for the duration of his rookie contract. Suns, like every team in the league have 15 roster spots. There is a place for Archie on this team. He deserves another chance.

Who is he going to get a chance over? Ulis/bledsoe/knight/booker or barbosa? Archie is done here. A.) hes not that good and b.) he at least deserves a chance to play somewhere else if we arent going to use him. Id much rather fill that spot with a guy like kuric from summer league, cheaper and he actually has an NBA skill thats useful.

True, but he shouldn't be waived. Traded? OK, but not waived. In fact, I'd send him to Prescott; if he doesn't like, tell him to get better, and 'develop' THEN we can bring him back to the big boys.

1) Goodwin can not be sent to the D-League unless both he and the players association agree with the assignment. I don't see Archie agreeing to that assignment.

2) What team needs Archie in a trade? Who is going to give up even a second round pick for a below average guard?

3) Do we want an unhappy player, and he has shown it in the past, around the team destroying the culture Watson is trying to create.

4) If you can't trade him or send him to D-League what are the options.

[NavLDO]

I was a fan of the Harkless idea until we drafted two PFs. Not sure I want to sign a guy longterm at that position anymore.

Dudley seems like the perfect stopgap.

That's funny you say it like that. I was a fan of the Harkless idea for a defensive wing and think of him more as a small forward, and thought he could basically alternate with Warren depending on whether we needed more offense or defense, but once we got Dudley, who is primarily more of another wing, I didn't want him. I know Dudley is going to start at 4 and could provide another good stretch guy who can shoot though. And he's a little scrappy defensively.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=moe%20harkless%20position

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1949/moe-harkless

SF 1 Evan Turner
2 Jake Layman
3 Luis Montero
PF 1 Al-Farouq Aminu
2 Meyers Leonard
3 Moe Harkless
4 Noah Vonleh

He's 6' 8.75", 220--he's versatile. Kind of like how I see Warren at 6'8.25" 220, probably best suited as a SF, but hell, if we're trotting out 6'7" Dudley for PF, to me Warren/Harkless are better fits.

[bwgood77]

Our guard rotation is still too big with all these players needing playing time. Even though Ulis replaces Price's spot doesn't mean he will get minutes although I hope he does. I see Bled, Knight, and Booker all getting 32 minutes each and that is both guard spot minutes for the whole game. Maybe mins are cut some for Ulis for 8-10 mins or so but as far as I see, Goodwin nor Barbosa are gonna see the floor. Goodwin may complain about his time meaning we have another cancer to deal with for the year like we have the past couple years. I just hope to see both Archie and Tucker or Chandler sent in a package for a heavily protected first or to a team with a high second (Nets).

How many saw us starting our 4th string PG (Goodwin) last year for 12 games??? Naw, I think Ulis gets plenty of burn this year, as will Barbosa and Jenkins.

Well I hope you're wrong, because if you are right it would likely mean we have faced injuries to Bledsoe and Knight again. If Knight is traded maybe, but I don't think he will be. At least not soon. I wouldn't mind Ulis getting some minutes if he earns them and handles the ball better than Knight against NBA competition.

[NavLDO]

Are you in my head brah?

I think it is almost guaranteed that the Suns have given Archie's agent permission to join them in a search for a trade. They have probably already told him what they want in return (I am thinking late first, early second, backup sf, etc).

So you think Archie can net us similar to what IT did?

Yeah...ummm, no. We'd be lucky to get a 2019 2nd. He either needs to be pkg'd, or EDIT: "respectfully invite him to join" the D-League to get minutes. We can always bring him up, if needed.

[bwgood77]

Who is he going to get a chance over? Ulis/bledsoe/knight/booker or barbosa? Archie is done here. A.) hes not that good and b.) he at least deserves a chance to play somewhere else if we arent going to use him. Id much rather fill that spot with a guy like kuric from summer league, cheaper and he actually has an NBA skill thats useful.

True, but he shouldn't be waived. Traded? OK, but not waived. In fact, I'd send him to Prescott; if he doesn't like, tell him to get better, and 'develop' THEN we can bring him back to the big boys.

1) Goodwin can not be sent to the D-League unless both he and the players association agree with the assignment. I don't see Archie agreeing to that assignment.

2) What team needs Archie in a trade? Who is going to give up even a second round pick for a below average guard?

3) Do we want an unhappy player, and he has shown it in the past, around the team destroying the culture Watson is trying to create.

4) If you can't trade him or send him to D-League what are the options.

I agree with not waiving him unless you want to give that roster spot to someone else. If you've guaranteed him this year, it doesn't make sense to waive him as that would be like flushing money down the toilet. I mean in this case that money doesn't seem to hold a lot of value, but if they picked up the team option surely they won't waive him just to waive him.

[NavLDO]

Who is he going to get a chance over? Ulis/bledsoe/knight/booker or barbosa? Archie is done here. A.) hes not that good and b.) he at least deserves a chance to play somewhere else if we arent going to use him. Id much rather fill that spot with a guy like kuric from summer league, cheaper and he actually has an NBA skill thats useful.

True, but he shouldn't be waived. Traded? OK, but not waived. In fact, I'd send him to Prescott; if he doesn't like, tell him to get better, and 'develop' THEN we can bring him back to the big boys.

1) Goodwin can not be sent to the D-League unless both he and the players association agree with the assignment. I don't see Archie agreeing to that assignment.

2) What team needs Archie in a trade? Who is going to give up even a second round pick for a below average guard?

3) Do we want an unhappy player, and he has shown it in the past, around the team destroying the culture Watson is trying to create.

4) If you can't trade him or send him to D-League what are the options.

Ah, didn't know that. Welp, pkg'd, then, and if not, keep him on the roster until next year; see if he gets better. But seriously, if he's smart, he'd agree to the D-league, or, as I just mentioned, trade him for a 2nd Rd player in 2019...or maybe 2024 is more realistic...

[lilfishi22]

I was thinking Goodwin as more of depth at PG than SG. Sadly, I think he might be better suited for PG with his handles. But you tell me, since I haven't seen enough to say I'm providing expert opinion on this, but Goodwin's shot is so broken, I think him slashing inside and dishing or getting fouled is his best move...

Goodwin is a lot closer to an SG than a PG. His handles to me are shaky, his playmaking is fairly pedestrian and he can't really create his own shot with any consistency unless it's a line drive. Right now, he's a pure slashing SG. You swing the ball to him where the defense is weak or not established and he can surprise defenders with his quick first step and strong drive but that's pretty much the only situation you can put him in right now where he can be remotely useful. My feeling is that his shot is broken. He's had close to three seasons to work on his shot with one of the best shooters in NBA history (Hornacek), yet he still can't find a spot on the court he is halfway consistent at.

This is just silly. Goodwin was a raw prospect when we drafted him. I'm sure McDonough knew that Archie won't be very productive for the duration of his rookie contract. Suns, like every team in the league have 15 roster spots. There is a place for Archie on this team. He deserves another chance.

I don't think we need to do anything drastic like waiving him but I feel like the front office has probably seen enough of Archie. He hasn't been productive because he hasn't found any consistency and while he's shown promise, promise is not enough when your only skill is driving to the hoop but you can't convert at the foul line. I'm not against giving Goodwin another year/chance but let's face it, he's not an unknown quantity any longer. He's about the same age as most soph/seniors coming out of college now and he's been under the close eye and scrutiny of our coaching staff throughout his 3 years with us. Perhaps he makes a big jump next season or perhaps he'll see improvement with another team. Either way, looking at the moves our front office has made, they don't seem to have much confidence in him.

[bwgood77]

I was a fan of the Harkless idea until we drafted two PFs. Not sure I want to sign a guy longterm at that position anymore.

Dudley seems like the perfect stopgap.

That's funny you say it like that. I was a fan of the Harkless idea for a defensive wing and think of him more as a small forward, and thought he could basically alternate with Warren depending on whether we needed more offense or defense, but once we got Dudley, who is primarily more of another wing, I didn't want him. I know Dudley is going to start at 4 and could provide another good stretch guy who can shoot though. And he's a little scrappy defensively.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=moe%20harkless%20position

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/1949/moe-harkless

SF 1 Evan Turner
2 Jake Layman
3 Luis Montero
PF 1 Al-Farouq Aminu
2 Meyers Leonard
3 Moe Harkless
4 Noah Vonleh

He's 6' 8.75", 220--he's versatile. Kind of like how I see Warren at 6'8.25" 220, probably best suited as a SF, but hell, if we're trotting out 6'7" Dudley for PF, to me Warren/Harkless are better fits.

I don't know what you are arguing with me or why your proof is how a fantasy site lists him on a depth chart (it even says G/F right after his name). I know he's played PF, but he's pretty much just a versatile defender, and probably more of a wing defender who can also guard point guards. Portland plays so small he's their PF.

I"d rather have Dudley at PF because he shoots 42% from 3 and can open up the floor. I liked Harkless as a role player to come in and guard unstoppable wings, and that is all I'd really want for him to do had we signed him, to come in and play minutes when Warren sat..and maybe play a little PF. But we are not going to sign at this point.

I mentioned him before considering if we did sign a guy like him, we would for sure trade Tucker, and that was before signing Dudley. Moe could guard opposing PFs better than Dudley, but I certainly wouldn't want Moe as our starting PF. That just gives us a PF that can't shoot and puts a young guy ahead of two rookies we just drafted. Makes no sense. Dudley is playing a role right now and will have no problem going to the bench at some point when hopefully one or both of our rookie PFs develop..it may not be until near the end of Dudley's deal, which is fine, but Moe is also still in the developmental stage.

[carey]

True, but Barbosa is essentially n a one year deal, Knight may potentially be traded, or Bledsoe could blow out his knee...AGAIN...I can see both sides of the argument, but unless McD plans on bringing in more talent, and we need the roster space (which even with Williams and Jenkins, we still only have 14), I see no reason to waive him. Part of a trade pkg??? Sure, but no need to waive him at this point.

Inaccurate. With those 2 we have zero roster spots open which is why Jenkins pushed back his Team Option deadline.

Bledsoe/Barbosa/Ulis
Knight/Booker/Goodwin/Jenkins
Tucker/Warren/Bender
Dudley/Chriss
Len/Chandler/Williams

[bwgood77]

True, but Barbosa is essentially n a one year deal, Knight may potentially be traded, or Bledsoe could blow out his knee...AGAIN...I can see both sides of the argument, but unless McD plans on bringing in more talent, and we need the roster space (which even with Williams and Jenkins, we still only have 14), I see no reason to waive him. Part of a trade pkg??? Sure, but no need to waive him at this point.

Inaccurate. With those 2 we have zero roster spots open which is why Jenkins pushed back his Team Option deadline.

Bledsoe/Barbosa/Ulis
Knight/Booker/Goodwin/Jenkins
Tucker/Warren/Bender
Dudley/Chriss
Len/Chandler/Williams

He pushed back his team option so we could sign someone else and complete our roster?

[SideSwipe]

Given what I have seen in SL anyone else interested in seeing a Bledsoe, Tucker, Bender, Len, Chandler lineup? Bender has attacked the perimeter well on closeouts and drive-by's. Hes far from a complete defensive player, but his length and mobility are overcoming a lot of his weaknesses (strength, position, angles, posture)

It would be fun to watch offenses try to score against that lineup. The added extra height would complicate things for opposing offense as well. It might be even more fun with Booker at the point. 6'7", 6'5", 7'1", 7'1" 7'1"

[bwgood77]

Given what I have seen in SL anyone else interested in seeing a Bledsoe, Tucker, Bender, Len, Chandler lineup? Bender has attacked the perimeter well on closeouts and drive-by's. Hes far from a complete defensive player, but his length and mobility are overcoming a lot of his weaknesses (strength, position, angles, posture)

It would be fun to watch offenses try to score against that lineup. The added extra height would complicate things for opposing offense as well. It might be even more fun with Booker at the point. 6'7", 6'5", 7'1", 7'1" 7'1"

Well they'd have to hold teams to about zero points per possession to come out ahead.

[SideSwipe]

Given what I have seen in SL anyone else interested in seeing a Bledsoe, Tucker, Bender, Len, Chandler lineup? Bender has attacked the perimeter well on closeouts and drive-by's. Hes far from a complete defensive player, but his length and mobility are overcoming a lot of his weaknesses (strength, position, angles, posture)

It would be fun to watch offenses try to score against that lineup. The added extra height would complicate things for opposing offense as well. It might be even more fun with Booker at the point. 6'7", 6'5", 7'1", 7'1" 7'1"

Well they'd have to hold teams to about zero points per possession to come out ahead.

nah that's why Bled or Booker are in there.....Hero Ball!!!!! Make it rain. Booker has been working the oop skills recently, so I am sure he could figure it out.

[carey]

He pushed back his team option so we could sign someone else and complete our roster?

So he'd at least have a shot to stick. Otherwise he probably would have been cut this week. The further away it is the better the chance of someone being moved or something happening that would allow him to stay on the team. He could be the 15th of course, but we're awful thin at PF and I would guess we won't carry 7 guards.

[NavLDO]

True, but Barbosa is essentially n a one year deal, Knight may potentially be traded, or Bledsoe could blow out his knee...AGAIN...I can see both sides of the argument, but unless McD plans on bringing in more talent, and we need the roster space (which even with Williams and Jenkins, we still only have 14), I see no reason to waive him. Part of a trade pkg??? Sure, but no need to waive him at this point.

Inaccurate. With those 2 we have zero roster spots open which is why Jenkins pushed back his Team Option deadline.

Bledsoe/Barbosa/Ulis
Knight/Booker/Goodwin/Jenkins
Tucker/Warren/Bender
Dudley/Chriss
Len/Chandler/Williams

Ah, well, math was never my strong suit! Must've counted without Williams before, then thought later I did count him...who knows...

[OGBAH]

Why haven't we signed LooooUuuu yet

[TheFire]

I was listening to Coro yesterday and he said Warren grew to 6'9''. Hard to believe someone who's almost 23 would have another growth spurt, but I though that was interesting. I think he will play more minutes at PF than either Bender or Chriss will.