RealGM Top 100 LIST- 2014

[Blackmill]

To be clear on this only the end is from Pelton (at least in this article), the line of thinking is my interpretation of the why and explained by me.

There was a longer version of this post but I'm tired and can't articulate well enough. The gist is exponential was used carelessly, for ease of use and I guess wrongly (brain definitely frazzled at this time, but even when clear the maths depth of understanding isn't where it would need to be). Sorry. The underlying point (from my original post and my understanding of others using this broad line of reasoning) is probably most clearly derived from the 10 SRS (without better 10 SRS) versus the 5 SRS probability and the clearly non-linear relationship. I think that would indicate how the difference between a (positive) 5 team's chances and (positive) 6's chances would be less than the gap between a 6 and a 7 (and so on). That said, as I am often at pains to point out in (in other threads) this isn't a game of individuals, so even had I been able to articulate that point correctly I don't know enough about the distribution of available (minute-) quality to properly understand how much the team level principle applies to individuals in reality, and competition - as has been alluded to, clearly matters.

Sorry again for any lack of clarity above or now.

Well, an exponentially increasing probability of winning as srs increases would suggest Pelton's claim, but how was the probability of winning derived from srs?

Was it based on historical results? Most probability distributions wouldn't give the exponential quality.

That said, it occurs to me that a linearly increasing affect of player impact on winning games (let's generalize to winning playoff series) could have an exponentially increasing affect on winning the championship just because multiple series are played.

[Dr Positivity]

Random ATL thought:

David Robinson’s career tends to get cut off at his injury season. Players are typically judged by primes and his gaudy stats from 94-96 were never the same after he came back. Sometimes even though he won 2 rings he gets treated like the ringless Barkley and Malone cause he didn’t do it as alpha.

Something that pops out is that 98 and 99 Robinson is still 1ST in the league in WS/48 and BPM. He’s also 3rd in PER both years. He gets voted 7th and 12th in MVP. Overall these are still elite seasons. Especially 98 where his per 36 of 23/11/3/3 is right up there with his early prime of 90-93. Considering the value of experience and improved skills a decent case can be made 98 Robinson is a better player than 90-93. Because he played 39mpg per rookie Duncan is close in some raw stats, but the per 36 numbers and advanced stats paint a fairly clear player that Robinson is still then best player on that team. However they don’t win that year, and instead do in 99 where Robinson goes down to 16/10 to Duncan’s 22/11, while Robinson still rates ahead in WS/48, PER and BPM, it’s fair call TD the alpha by this point especially by the playoffs. So Robinson’s goes down as 2nd banana only. In early 2000s he goes on to post pretty strong advanced stats still, before the wheels health wise come off.

Now consider the case of Kobe playing with Pau. 2010 is considered an undisputed alpha year by the media. However by advanced stats it’s the one where he declined. His WS/48 is above .196 every year from 00-09 including .208 and .206 in 08 and 09 and falls to .160 in 2010. His BPM is above 4.2 every year from 00-09 and at 5.4 and 4.5 in 08 and 09 and falls to 3.5 in 2010. His PER is above 23 every year from 01-09 including 24.2 and 24.4 in 08 and 09 and goes to 21.7 in 2010. It’s been noted the Lakers are unique among teams with such an undisputed best player where advanced stats favours the 2nd best. Pau is ahead in WS/48 in 08, in WS/48 and BPM in 09 and PER, WS/48 and BPM in 10.

So should Robinson 98-99 be rated that much less than 09-10 Kobe? While Kobe was awesome in those years, so was Robinson. He scored less points but he was an elite defender and still put up offensive production. Advanced stats are useful to help get away from the media’s biases towards PPG towards valuing other parts of the game, and they suggest Robinson was still a major part of 99 team as seen by leading it in PER, WS/48 and BPM (finishing ahead of either 10 Pau or Kobe in those stats, by the way), and they suggest Kobe over Pau in 2010 is far from undisputed. The same line of thought could be used to compare Robinson’s seasons like 00 to 02 to 11 to 13 Kobe, the points per game favor Kobe, but the advanced stats favor Robinson.

[kayess]

Random ATL thought:

David Robinson’s career tends to get cut off at his injury season. Players are typically judged by primes and his gaudy stats from 94-96 were never the same after he came back. Sometimes even though he won 2 rings he gets treated like the ringless Barkley and Malone cause he didn’t do it as alpha.

Something that pops out is that 98 and 99 Robinson is still 1ST in the league in WS/48 and BPM. He’s also 3rd in PER both years. He gets voted 7th and 12th in MVP. Overall these are still elite seasons. Especially 98 where his per 36 of 23/11/3/3 is right up there with his early prime of 90-93. Considering the value of experience and improved skills a decent case can be made 98 Robinson is a better player than 90-93. Because he played 39mpg per rookie Duncan is close in some raw stats, but the per 36 numbers and advanced stats paint a fairly clear player that Robinson is still then best player on that team. However they don’t win that year, and instead do in 99 where Robinson goes down to 16/10 to Duncan’s 22/11, while Robinson still rates ahead in WS/48, PER and BPM, it’s fair call TD the alpha by this point especially by the playoffs. So Robinson’s goes down as 2nd banana only. In early 2000s he goes on to post pretty strong advanced stats still, before the wheels health wise come off.

Now consider the case of Kobe playing with Pau. 2010 is considered an undisputed alpha year by the media. However by advanced stats it’s the one where he declined. His WS/48 is above .196 every year from 00-09 including .208 and .206 in 08 and 09 and falls to .160 in 2010. His BPM is above 4.2 every year from 00-09 and at 5.4 and 4.5 in 08 and 09 and falls to 3.5 in 2010. His PER is above 23 every year from 01-09 including 24.2 and 24.4 in 08 and 09 and goes to 21.7 in 2010. It’s been noted the Lakers are unique among teams with such an undisputed best player where advanced stats favours the 2nd best. Pau is ahead in WS/48 in 08, in WS/48 and BPM in 09 and PER, WS/48 and BPM in 10.

So should Robinson 98-99 be rated that much less than 09-10 Kobe? While Kobe was awesome in those years, so was Robinson. He scored less points but he was an elite defender and still put up offensive production. Advanced stats are useful to help get away from the media’s biases towards PPG towards valuing other parts of the game, and they suggest Robinson was still a major part of 99 team as seen by leading it in PER, WS/48 and BPM (finishing ahead of either 10 Pau or Kobe in those stats, by the way), and they suggest Kobe over Pau in 2010 is far from undisputed. The same line of thought could be used to compare Robinson’s seasons like 00 to 02 to 11 to 13 Kobe, the points per game favor Kobe, but the advanced stats favor Robinson.

Come on dude, PPG! Kobe was the leading scorer on a championship team, OF COURSE he's better than D-Rob who was only part of Duncan's supporting cast!

[LA Bird]

in 99 where Robinson goes down to 16/10 to Duncan’s 22/11, while Robinson still rates ahead in WS/48, PER and BPM, it’s fair call TD the alpha by this point especially by the playoffs. So Robinson’s goes down as 2nd banana only.

He scored less points but he was an elite defender and still put up offensive production. Advanced stats are useful to help get away from the media’s biases towards PPG towards valuing other parts of the game, and they suggest Robinson was still a major part of 99 team as seen by leading it in PER, WS/48 and BPM

The irony in this being that the bias towards PPG is what has built this perception of Duncan as the alpha of the team even though Robinson's impact on defense is far superior at this stage. If you are to rank 1998/99 Robinson ahead of 2010 Kobe because scoring is not that important, why is it a given assumption that he was only the 2nd banana on the Spurs? Duncan is a better scorer but in terms of non box score impact, he is lagging considerably behind Robinson:

Playoffs on-off (1998 and 1999 combined, 26 games total)
Robinson: +15.5 On, -13.9 Off, +29.5 Net
Duncan: +7.7 On, +12.5 Off, -4.7 Net

[Lucky707]

I really enjoy the RealGM Top 100 lists ... I understand this is the Player Comparisons board but can I suggest that one be done for TEAMS as well? A "Top 50" teams of all-time lists would be quite interesting even though I have no idea how you would rank some of the 60s Celtics squads.

[RCM88x]

I'd be willing to participate.

[Quotatious]

I'd be willing to participate.

It ended a year ago. We'll probably do another one next year, though (it seems like doing this thing every 3 years has become a tradition - we had this project in 2008, 2011, 2014, so it seems like the next one will be in 2017).

[Pablo Novi]

I've just run into this thread; and would be honored to be allowed to participate.

The OP Post / 2014 RealGM GOAT List is THE best I've ever seen (except mine, lol).
My only/biggest criticism of it:
There are 5.5 Centers in the Top 9. (5 Centers plus TD, half-PF, half-Center); that, imo, is WAY too many.
In my GOAT list, in every successive set of 5 players (#s 1-5, #s 6-10, etc), I have one player from each of the 5 positions.

imo, any other "system" (which means EVERY NBA (/ABA/NBL) GOAT list I've ever seen (in 57 years of "rabid" fan-hood; 1960-2016) is unfairly biased towards the Center position - it's a 5-man game; and players from ALL 5 positions contribute relatively equally. Sure, Centers, and big-men generally, contribute more on Defense; but wing players are doing considerably more running (and cutting) on both Offense and Defense - that counts for a lot too. I don't have exact figures, but I bet comparing the averages of the GOAT Top 100, the Centers, and big-men, tend to have the longest careers for this exact reason - the stress of the additional effort (and collisions with bigger players) tends to cut wing-players' careers shorter.

P.S. I didn't see the post immediately before mine - so, let me re-phrase myself:
I'd be honored to participate WHENEVER this great board organizes its next discussion of the GOAT 100.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I've just run into this thread; and would be honored to be allowed to participate.

The OP Post / 2014 RealGM GOAT List is THE best I've ever seen (except mine, lol).
My only/biggest criticism of it:
There are 5.5 Centers in the Top 9. (5 Centers plus TD, half-PF, half-Center); that, imo, is WAY too many.
In my GOAT list, in every successive set of 5 players (#s 1-5, #s 6-10, etc), I have one player from each of the 5 positions.

imo, any other "system" (which means EVERY NBA (/ABA/NBL) GOAT list I've ever seen (in 57 years of "rabid" fan-hood; 1960-2016) is unfairly biased towards the Center position - it's a 5-man game; and players from ALL 5 positions contribute relatively equally. Sure, Centers, and big-men generally, contribute more on Defense; but wing players are doing considerably more running (and cutting) on both Offense and Defense - that counts for a lot too. I don't have exact figures, but I bet comparing the averages of the GOAT Top 100, the Centers, and big-men, tend to have the longest careers for this exact reason - the stress of the additional effort (and collisions with bigger players) tends to cut wing-players' careers shorter.

P.S. I didn't see the post immediately before mine - so, let me re-phrase myself:
I'd be honored to participate WHENEVER this great board organizes its next discussion of the GOAT 100.

It's based off of impact mostly.

What I mean is like, if you replaced, for example, A good defensive guard with an average joe, generally the difference will be less than a good defensive center with an average joe, and the difference increases as the players get better.

Generally centers are more important to defense while not being less, at least much less important on offense, though I think best offensive guards>best offensive big men, but generally the difference isn't as high.

[Dr Positivity]

If you only go after 1970, the distribution of bigs to perimeter players is more balanced. The top 10 would be Jordan, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, Magic, Hakeem, Bird, Garnett, Kobe. A decent case can be made the 50/60s were made to be more center-driven as the lack of shooting/spacing, made it more important on both ends to have a towering presence controlling the rim area

[SactoKingsFan]

I've just run into this thread; and would be honored to be allowed to participate.

The OP Post / 2014 RealGM GOAT List is THE best I've ever seen (except mine, lol).
My only/biggest criticism of it:
There are 5.5 Centers in the Top 9. (5 Centers plus TD, half-PF, half-Center); that, imo, is WAY too many.
In my GOAT list, in every successive set of 5 players (#s 1-5, #s 6-10, etc), I have one player from each of the 5 positions.

Don't like this idea at all. We should rank players based on who we think was the most impactful and provided the most career value. If only 1 player from a position can be included in each set of 5 players, then we have to leave 3 of Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem and DRob out of the top 15 (all are in my top 15) and one wouldn't even be in top 25.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Pablo Novi]

Having been actively trying to make NBA GOAT Lists for 50+ years; I feel like I have so much to say (and contribute?) that it makes more sense (to me anyway) to start a new thread in which to lay out all my (meta-)thinking (for your review, of course).

Here's the name of the new thread:
Pablo's Version Of How To Build A Quality NBA / ABA / NBL GOAT Top 50 List

and here's the link to page 1:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1465646&p=48731162#p48731162

[Dr Positivity]

I'm going to start a self-project where I go through the All-Time list with these thoughts

- Ring counting is overrated especially when the player is rated "the man" by the media. Finals as the man or championship as one of the next best players on a team are also rated as overrated

- Points per game is overrated

The opposite of these rules is therefore underrated. Elite seasons in non Finals years, or elite non points per game value

So here is my take on the top 10 players, who were the same on both ESPN's All Time List and the last RealGM top 100

Michael Jordan

Underrated reasons: From 87-90 has one of the greatest 4 year statistical stretches in history but in non-Finals seasons. One of the best non-points per game SGs of all time due to his historically good defense for a SG, rebounding, assists, efficiency.

Overrated reasons: Leads the NBA in scoring 10 times, all time points per game leader. 6 championship rings as undisputed Alpha. Scoring leader all 6 times.

Analysis: I lean overrated due to the immense combination of titles and PPG, including 6x the Ultimate Combo of both the PPG leader and the Alpha on a champion (which I think has happened only 2 other times post shot clock in 71 Kareem and 00 Shaq). The 87-90 stretch would rate as underrated but it's only 4 years.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Underrated reasons: Most of his greatest seasons in the 70s came without a title or Finals appearances. Went on to 6 titles but most of those are credited as Magic Johnson alpha seasons, with that being egregious in 1980. Strong in non-scoring areas as a rebounder, passing, efficiency and making many All-Defense teams for a C not typically placed with the great anchors.

Overrated reasons: The NBA’s all time leading scorer and finished top 5 in PPG 10 times, 6 championships and 10 Finals even if some of them weren’t as the guy. Both scoring leader and Alpha champion in 71.

Analysis: Slightly underrated. While his lack of titles in the 70s plays against him, his title count, Finals appearances and being the points king play in his favor. I'm leaning underrated because his underrated reasons are titled towards his prime and his overrated reasons are tilted towards his post-prime.

Lebron James

Underrated reasons: Historically elite non-points per game player for his position with efficiency, defense, passing, rebounding. Has lost in the Finals 4 times and didn’t make the Finals in arguably his two greatest statistical seasons in 2009 and 2010.

Overrated reasons: While only leading the league once, he has been top 5 in PPG the last 12 seasons including top 2 or 3 most of them. Has relatively few seasons in his prime where he didn’t make the Finals.

Analysis: Neutral. Strong PPG and titles/Finals player, though the historic 2009 and 2010 seasons get diluted due to not making the Finals.

Magic Johnson

Underrated reasons: Low points per game reliance compared to other stars at this level, he only finished top 10 once and it was 10th. Very strong in other stats including assists, rebounding, efficiency, steals.

Overrated reasons: Makes the Finals 9 of his first 12 seasons and wins 5 championships most as the man and in one he wasn't in 1980 he stole the show with his series clincher in 1980. Doesn’t make an All-Defensive team.

Analysis: Neutral. Gets a lot of legacy points for his titles but his non-PPG statline is enormous.

Wilt Chamberlain

Underrated reasons: Doesn’t win the title or make the Finals for many of his prime years and is blamed for some of them. Always one of the best rebounders in history and the second half of his career his excellence in non points per game stats in rebounding, defense, passing could be overlooked compared to the decline in points.

Overrated reasons: He leads the league in PPG 7 straight years and is top 5 for a few after and has some of the most media recognized points per game records

Analysis: Slightly underrated, early Wilt has high PPG but high other stats and isn't winning titles, probably about neutral, where I lean underrated is how Lakers Wilt is possibly underrated for being one of the great non-PPG centers of all time statistically, wins 1 title

Larry Bird

Underrated reasons: All time great non-points per game producer for his position with rebounding, assists, steals and makes All-Defense teams. 3 of his greatest statistical seasons in 85, 87, 88 he doesn’t win a title.

Overrated reasons: Wins 3 titles as the man and makes 5 Finals in a shorter prime than many. The 81 season, otherwise on the low end of his prime stats and including a shaky Finals statistically, is elevated by his championship. Finishes top four in points per game 4 straight years.

Analysis: Neutral. Like Magic his legacy leans on titles but he does have tons of non-PPG value and doesn't win the title in some mega seasons.

Bill Russell

Underrated: One of the least reliant on points per game of superstar, and defense, rebounding and assists combination gives him historic non-PPG value for a C.

Overrated reasons: Wins 11 titles and makes 12 Finals making him the king of championship value and giving him minimal seasons underrated for success reasons.

Analysis: Neutral with being on one end of the statistical split and the other end of the title valuing.

Tim Duncan

Underrated reasons: Only finishes top 5 in points per game once and elite non PPG value in defense, rebounding, passing. Has several of his best seasons seasons where he doesn’t make the Finals, including perhaps a candidate for his peak in 2002.

Overrated reasons: 5 championships and 6 Finals and usually considered the Alpha for the first four, perhaps too much over Robinson in 99 and Manu in 05.

Analysis: Neutral to slightly overrated. The rings help him a lot although he has a lot of value outside of points.

Shaquille O’Neal

Underrated reasons: Decent non PPG value in rebounding, assists, passing, efficiency, above average defensive career

Overrated: 4 championships and 6 Finals. Strong points per game career finishing top 3 8 straight years and top 4 9 times. Scoring leader and alpha champion in 2000.

Analysis: Slightly overrated as he has both a PPG friendly career and a lot of rings and titles success. Good non scoring value but lower than a lot of players in this top ten.

Hakeem Olajuwon

Underrated reasons: All time great non-PPG center with elite defense and steal/block great rebounding, passing. Many of his greatest seasons in his stretch from 87-93 lacked Finals appearances and general success, including possibly his peak in 93.

Overrated reasons: Finished top 4 in points per game four straight seasons (93-96) including top 3 in his title years and led the 94 and 95 playoffs in scoring. 2 titles and 3 Finals appearance. Gap between him and his teammates on 94 champions is perceived to be as high as anyone’s.

Analysis: Neutral. Legacy is helped a ton by 94 and 95 titles as the man but his 87-93 stretch is a great underrated candidate with crazy non PPG stats on non contending teams.

Overall analysis:

I don’t see anything hugely egregious in the rankings. These guys have been gone over with a fine toothed comb through the years so I guess that's not too surprising. I would claim Jordan fits the profile of overrated the most but since in the media he's a relatively unchallenged GOAT that could bring him down a notch or two and make him still a #1 contender. Shaq maybe fits the most of the other candidates. I'd probably pick Wilt as the most underrated, followed by Kareem. Both not winning championships a lot of years in their prime tends to underplay those seasons. In net this would suggest Wilt and Kareem are undervalued as GOAT contenders

Edit: 11-21 on ESPN's top 100 (I went to 21 since it includes KG)

Kobe Bryant

Underrated reasons: Two of his best seasons (2006 and 2007) came on non contending teams, solid passing and defense

Overrated reasons: Very PPG friendly player finishing top 5 12 times and leading twice, 3rd all time in scoring. 5 rings and 7 Finals.

Analysis: Overrated, nobody's legacy gets more out of points and rings combo

Oscar Robertson

Underrated reasons: No titles as the man with 1 title, 2 Finals. Excellent all around stats with passing, rebounding, efficiency. All of his best seasons came without making the Finals.

Overrated reasons: PPG friendly finishing top 5 9 times and 1st once, although in a small league.

Analysis: Underrated due to lack of titles/Finals as the man combined with strong non PPG value, overweighing that he is a high PPG player.

Jerry West

Underrated reasons: Only 1 title as the semi-man, elite combination of rebounding, assists, efficiency, defense for a guard.

Overrated reasons: Makes 9 Finals and is top 5 in scoring 6 times including leading once, would’ve been top 5 a few more times if he got banged up less and qualified. Some massive playoff scoring lines.

Analysis: Neutral to slightly underrated, has more team success than Oscar with the Finals appearances but on the whole is still short compared to many stars in titles as the man and has a strong non PPG statline.

Julius Erving

Underrated reasons: No NBA titles as the man, finishes top 5 in NBA scoring just twice. Strong all around game with defense, rebounding, passing.

Overrated reasons: In the NBA wins a title as secondary and makes the Finals as the man 3 other times. Wins 2 ABA titles and leads the league in scoring 3x, including two scoring leader and alpha on championship seasons.

Analysis: I’d lean towards underrated for NBA and overrated for ABA. Slightly underrated on the whole I guess if giving more priority to NBA.

Moses Malone

Underrated reasons: Several of his best seasons came in non Finals years including possibly his best in 82. Solid non-PPG value due to the elite rebounding.

Overrated: Has title and Finals as the man, finishes top 5 in PPG five straight years.

Analysis: Neutral to slightly overrated as a PPG friendly player with a title as the man.

Karl Malone

Underrated reasons: No title as the man. Many of his best seasons came in non Finals years. Impressive assists, efficiency, rebounding. All Defensive team member later in his career.

Overrated reasons: Relatively PPG centric career finishing top 5 13 straight years and 2nd five times. 2 Finals as the man.

Analysis: Neutral to slightly underrated due to lack of championship

Dirk Nowitzki

Underrated reasons: Didn’t win the title in some of his peak seasons, elite efficiency and spacing, only finishes top 5 in PPG twice and no higher than 4th

Overrated reasons: Unspectacular combination in non-scoring areas defensively, rebounding, assists. 1 title as the man with role players is a boon to his legacy, has a second Finals.

Analysis: Slightly overrated due to his legacy leaning on 2011 title a lot

Charles Barkley

Underrated reasons: No title, peaked statistically on non contenders in Philadelphia. Incredible efficiency plus rebounding and assists gives him good statistical production outside of PPG. Finishes top 5 in PPG 3 times and no higher than 4th.

Overrated reasons: 1 Finals as the man, questionable defense.

Analysis: Underrated due to no title, his best years coming on weaker teams, and very good ratio of non-PPG to PPG production.

John Stockton

Underrated reasons: No title, no Finals as the man, outstanding ratio of non-PPG to PPG production with his assists, efficiency, defense/steals, his peak seasons came before the Finals

Overrated reasons: 2 Finals

Analysis: Rates as underrated with a bullet by this method

David Robinson

Underrated reasons: No title or Finals as the outright man, elite non PPG production in defense, rebounding, passing, efficiency.

Overrated reasons: 2 titles and Finals, somewhat PPG friendly player who finishes top 5 in scoring three times and 1st once.

Analysis: Slightly underrated due to his non-PPG stat and not getting credit as the alpha for 99.

Kevin Garnett

Underrated reasons: No title or Finals during his Minnesota prime including missing the playoffs during one of his best years (2005). Elite non-PPG production with rebounding, assists, elite defense, quality efficiency. After 04 where he finishes 3rd in PPG, never finishes above 9th.

Overrated reasons: Has a title as the best player (though not credited for it as much as others) and another Finals.

Analysis: Underrated due to not making the Finals and limited playoff series wins overall in Minnesota, elite non PPG production.

Overall: No surprise that Kobe gets hurt the most doing this exercise, and it's not so great for Dirk and Moses either. Oscar, Barkley, Garnett, Robinson look good as players with mega statistical seasons in non Finals seasons most of their prime and Oscar could get top 10 consideration. But the real winner is Stockton who hits almost every checkmark of a low PPG player who's incredible in the other areas for his position, and lacking team success points, with no title and his only 2 Finals coming after his statistical prime. It's surprising ESPN rated him all the way at 18

[Dr Spaceman]

It will be interesting to me to see how the 2017 list plays out. The 2014 project was a huge step forward in terms of breaking open the discussion shell to include some unconventional evaluation and different methods. I think this upcoming list could see us start to accept some things that would put us very, very "out there" to the greater basketball community but more true to the work we've done over the past half-decade+.

[Gibson22]

It will be interesting to me to see how the 2017 list plays out. The 2014 project was a huge step forward in terms of breaking open the discussion shell to include some unconventional evaluation and different methods. I think this upcoming list could see us start to accept some things that would put us very, very "out there" to the greater basketball community but more true to the work we've done over the past half-decade+.

So it's official we are doing it in 2017?

[Dr Spaceman]

It will be interesting to me to see how the 2017 list plays out. The 2014 project was a huge step forward in terms of breaking open the discussion shell to include some unconventional evaluation and different methods. I think this upcoming list could see us start to accept some things that would put us very, very "out there" to the greater basketball community but more true to the work we've done over the past half-decade+.

So it's official we are doing it in 2017?

I'm not a mod so no it's not official.

We've done it in 08, 11, and 14 though so 17 makes sense. We're on a roll with enormously successful projects recently (12 RPOY, 14 Top100, 15 Peaks) and since we're off this summer the timing is good.

I probably can't run the project since I'd be running at +7 hrs relative to EST, but I'd help out if there were hints to be done. I'd nominate Trex considering how brilliant he was with the peaks project, but obviously only if it's something he wants to do.

[Quotatious]

It will be interesting to me to see how the 2017 list plays out. The 2014 project was a huge step forward in terms of breaking open the discussion shell to include some unconventional evaluation and different methods. I think this upcoming list could see us start to accept some things that would put us very, very "out there" to the greater basketball community but more true to the work we've done over the past half-decade+.

So it's official we are doing it in 2017?

I'm not a mod so no it's not official.

We've done it in 08, 11, and 14 though so 17 makes sense. We're on a roll with enormously successful projects recently (12 RPOY, 14 Top100, 15 Peaks) and since we're off this summer the timing is good.

I probably can't run the project since I'd be running at +7 hrs relative to EST, but I'd help out if there were hints to be done. I'd nominate Trex considering how brilliant he was with the peaks project, but obviously only if it's something he wants to do.

I'm willing to help or even run the whole thing if necessary, and yeah, it seems like 2017 should be the next time we do it.

[Quotatious]

I was just thinking about Shaq's career, and I'm wondering - how much (if at all) do you guys penalize him for missing so many games in the regular season throughout his career? For example - 1996 and 1997 Shaq was a better player than 2009 or 2010 Dwight, but Howard played about 30 more RS games each season, about 60 more games in two seasons...Personally, I would definitely punish Shaq for that. It's not just about how great you are, it's also about how often you are there to prove it. What's important is that Shaq was already ready for the playoffs, but I just don't think he should get a pass for missing so much time in RS. I think a great argument can be made that 2009 or 2010 Dwight brought more value to a team than 1996 or 1997 Shaq, because he stayed healthy all the time, in addition to being better on defense and on the boards.

[Dr Spaceman]

I was just thinking about Shaq's career, and I'm wondering - how much (if at all) do you guys penalize him for missing so many games in the regular season throughout his career? For example - 1996 and 1997 Shaq was a better player than 2009 or 2010 Dwight, but Howard played about 30 more RS games each season, about 60 more games in two seasons...Personally, I would definitely punish Shaq for that. It's not just about how great you are, it's also about how often you are there to prove it. What's important is that Shaq was already ready for the playoffs, but I just don't think he should get a pass for missing so much time in RS. I think a great argument can be made that 2009 or 2010 Dwight brought more value to a team than 1996 or 1997 Shaq, because he stayed healthy all the time, in addition to being better on defense and on the boards.

Yeah, I hold it against him a lot. People decry the fact he only won 1 MVP, well this is why. I think his longevity is more on par with Magic and Bird than Duncan and Garnett. I think he's near the bottom of my top 10.

[RSCD3_]

Did a quick study on popular opinion, looked up on google " top 10 greatest nba players " checked under videos and limited it to after 2015 PS and before the end of the 2016 PS

Here's the tally after 12 Random videos, 1 pt for 10, 10 pts for 1

1. Jordan 120
2. Kareem 90
3. Magic 85
4. Wilt 72
5. Russell 68
6. Bird 63
7. Kobe 42
8. LeBron 40
9. Duncan 28
10. Shaq 18

Jordan was #1 for all, Duncan was off once, Lebron and Kobe thrice each, and Shaq 4x.

This is kind of odd how nostalgia centric these random 11 were. Especially since this was 2015 season based.

Sent from my SM-T550 using RealGM mobile app