The Official Lin Net Thread

[MrDollarBills]

Enough with the Lin vs. Harden (or any other star) comparisons. The last Lin thread was locked due to derailment and this one will be too if people can't stay on topic.

As Rich said intimated in the OP, those who cannot talk about Lin without resorting to bashing other posters will be dealt with.

This goes for those who support, dislike, or attempt to instigate/bait others into a discussion about Lin.

Stop derailing the thread and bringing up topics that aren't relevant or worthy of discussion.

-NyCe

can I still ask Prok where he's getting his RAPM numbers from? i assumed we were getting RAPM single and multi metrics from the same source because I don't see where he got the negative numbers from

[tweet]https://twitter.com/JerryEngelmann/status/746377998102847492[/tweet]
Multi-year RAPM:
O: 0.01/ D: 0.89/ T: 0.91

Single-year RAPM:
O: -0.76/ D: 0.92/ T: 0.16

I've always supported multi-year RAPM over single-year but to each his own.

yeah so you and I are getting it from the same source (i also go for multi year but will look at both)

RAPM:
Harden - +4.28
Lin - (-0.91)

^^where did he get that negative from? The moment I saw him posting that I was like ok yeah Harden is easily superior to Lin but the dude is not a negative player in the slightest according to RAPM. That was just weird.

[TinmanZBoy]

for lin to be really good, any coach has to tolerate his TO issues... he will turn the ball over, but he will make a lot more plays that a star player usually makes... Lin can't subdue his aggressiveness, that's essential for his scoring and play making...

[steady]

Lin must know Nets will lose vast majority of games this year, it’s going to be interesting to see him handle this. He hates losing. He really hates it. It won’t be as bad as Lakers’ year because he at least believes in the system and the coach in Brooklyn. But man.

He is used to winning. Of the four teams (Knicks, Rockets, Lakers, Hornets) that Lin has played substantial minutes for, none of the them were expected to go to the playoffs, and all but the Lakers did.

In Charlotte, after MKG went down, Charlotte was expected to be 25th in the League last year, they ended up being tied for 3rd in terms of wins in Eastern Conference. The year Lin joined the Rockets, they were expected to be 21st in the League even after Harden joined, and they made the playoffs and were seen as one of up and coming new teams.

Both teams also went through huge roster overhauls the year Lin signed. Hornets changed their entire direction offensively, and added 6 new rotation players: Batum, Lin, Lee, Kaminsky, Lamb, Hawes. Rockets did an even more complete roster tear down and build up the year Lin arrived, with only 3 players left from their prior roster.

So Lin is used to teams going through roster overhauls, but he is used to winning with those teams. It has just worked out that way, he has been very lucky/blessed. So this year will be a new experience for him. If everything breaks RIGHT for them, the Nets will win about 30 games. Man.
M
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I would definitely be in Barclays if I still lived in Brooklyn though. Just to see what Lin and Atkinson put together. Atkinson’s system seems good based on what we’ve seen in summer league, and the young guys seem to have bought in. That’s a good first step.

Los Angeles was soul-sapping. Lin's played for losing teams before, but never for one where losing was not only the team culture, but it's mandate. Any time he started tying the score, he'd get benched. Jeremy and Ed Davis started teaming up and putting on a scoring show. Coach Scott finally made sure they were never on the court at the same time.

Charlotte was also considered a losing team, but at least they wanted to win. It was a good place for Jeremy. He knew they had already invested in their point guard for the long term, but if they wanted to win, he wanted to help. He was used as sort of a Swiss army knife. If the starter's shots weren't falling, he'd be brought in to score in the paint. If the starters were getting smothered by the defense, he'd be brought in to draw off the defense. If Batum was out, Jeremy would be brought in to distribute and set Kemba up to score. If the other team was scoring too much, Coach Clifford would bring him in to defend whichever guard was putting up the most shots.

I know Jeremy was comfortable there. Charlotte gave him the opportunity to retool his shot release, knowing he'd be a little less consistent scoring outside the paint until he got the new release locked in. But I don't think Jeremy would be content in a safe and comfortable role for long. Sooner or later he'd want to test himself again.

He knows what he's facing in Brooklyn. But Atkinson worked tirelessly to help him survive during Linsanity, and now Jeremy wants to do everything he can to help Atkinson survive and thrive. They may both flame out -- but not for lack of giving it everything they have to give.
.

Yeah the fact that they have this friendship going way back is cool. Did you see the Snapchat video Lin posted from Summer League of KA on sidelines - with Lin commenting in video about the "rookie coach" and how he is showing good form in his pacing the sidelines.

[PG13]

I feel sick of discussing abt Haren and lets back to topic. Things get worse for nets as TJones got signed. Nets roster won't get much chance. Even Lin was replaced by rondo or some mid level pg it's not much different.

Is Nets GM going to sign L.Stephenance?

I don't know where you got the idea of signing those guys. The Nets are trying to build a culture by bringing in high character guys. T Jones and Lance don't qualify. T. Jones stomped on a homeless guy for heaven's sake.

[m40]

I feel sick of discussing abt Haren and lets back to topic. Things get worse for nets as TJones got signed. Nets roster won't get much chance. Even Lin was replaced by rondo or some mid level pg it's not much different.

Is Nets GM going to sign L.Stephenance?

I don't know where you got the idea of signing those guys. The Nets are trying to build a culture by bringing in high character guys. T Jones and Lance don't qualify. T. Jones stomped on a homeless guy for heaven's sake.

I see your point... what is the next possible high character guys that Nets can sign? or it is about the final roster for coming season?

[cn0gd]

for lin to be really good, any coach has to tolerate his TO issues... he will turn the ball over, but he will make a lot more plays that a star player usually makes... Lin can't subdue his aggressiveness, that's essential for his scoring and play making...

I think he is much improved last season, those mind bogging change mind in mid-air give up a layup/floater/jumper for a pass, dont remember seeing it last yr, correct me if i am wrong. probe much better, drive into a crowd a lot less, and he learn ways to solved it eventually. irrc last yr about half of his TOs come from loose force pass, another half from got hit/strip while driving? anyone can make a video about all of his TOs then we can count the types with exact number.

biggest concern is still his 3p shooting, he have to kill the big man switch on him, or opponent can always switch on him then his offense is dead. in PO Heat figured out switched Haslem on him but he banked in a flute, that wont happen everyday.

[Travers]

this isnt soccer, its basketball. and talent is the first, second, and third most important thing.

its not a coincidence that Lebron/curry made the last 2 finals. or that lebron has made it to 6 finals in a row. or that durant/westbrook were in the conference finals.

there is a reason we won 21 games last year and it wasnt chemistry. it was lack of talent.

See the success LBJ gets and the struggles Melo has been, you will know the difference.
Teamwork, chemistry and coaching is as important as talent, every great player mentioned that, every great coach and great team proved that. Or you think you know more than those great players and coaches, or you think you know more about basketball than Gregg Popovich.

Lebron is much better then carmello. lebron is a multi time MVP and a top 2 player. any team lebron goes to is an instant contender.

Gregg popovich has had tim duncan for 19 years. pop is a great coach but lets see how he does without one of the 10 best players of all time.

teamwork and chemistry go a long way, im not denying that. but they dont go as far as they do in soccer, where you have 11 guys on the team. in the Nba you have 5, one guy influences the game much more. talent goes much further.

teamwork wont turn a 20 win team into a good team. you need talent.

[m40]

See the success LBJ gets and the struggles Melo has been, you will know the difference.
Teamwork, chemistry and coaching is as important as talent, every great player mentioned that, every great coach and great team proved that. Or you think you know more than those great players and coaches, or you think you know more about basketball than Gregg Popovich.

Lebron is much better then carmello. lebron is a multi time MVP and a top 2 player. any team lebron goes to is an instant contender.

Gregg popovich has had tim duncan for 19 years. pop is a great coach but lets see how he does without one of the 10 best players of all time.

teamwork and chemistry go a long way, im not denying that. but they dont go as far as they do in soccer, where you have 11 guys on the team. in the Nba you have 5, one guy influences the game much more. talent goes much further.

teamwork wont turn a 20 win team into a good team. you need talent.

Agree. A typical team with good teamwork is raptors - when there are no "super star" but with a very good result. Look at how bad NYK performance was in recent years. They have big good names but nothing to produce. LAL with Kobe, Howard, Nash, bababa but that year was horrible for LAL. Teamwork doesn't guarantee a champion but without teamwork it is not likely to enter PO.

[hood30]

for lin to be really good, any coach has to tolerate his TO issues... he will turn the ball over, but he will make a lot more plays that a star player usually makes... Lin can't subdue his aggressiveness, that's essential for his scoring and play making...

truest word ever spoken about Lin...Nets fan needs to understand that Lin is turnover prone..I just hope this is something Atkinson already know about Lin since he saw Linsanity first hand and will give him some space...Even during Linsanity, Lin averaged about 5 turnovers per game.

The problem Lin had on his previous team's coaches, McHale and Scott..the 2 were very strict with Lin and could not accept Lin's turnovers..Of course, every coach has tolerance level on turnovers....

Mike D'Antoni tolerance for Lin's turnover was very high..He would always encourage Lin after he turned the ball over...Guys like McHale and Scott would quickly sub Lin out after a few turnovers...Because of that, Lin would constantly look over his shoulder after every mistake.

Even with the fact that he recorded less turnover this year, but that was simply because he handled the ball less than previous year and spent a lot of time playing SG with Kemba and Batum playing PG...Batum played less PG but still shared ball-handling duty with Lin.

[TinmanZBoy]

who is the more famous lin in NYC

jeremy lin or lin-Manuel Miranda?

[cn0gd]

Lebron is much better then carmello. lebron is a multi time MVP and a top 2 player. any team lebron goes to is an instant contender.

Gregg popovich has had tim duncan for 19 years. pop is a great coach but lets see how he does without one of the 10 best players of all time.

teamwork and chemistry go a long way, im not denying that. but they dont go as far as they do in soccer, where you have 11 guys on the team. in the Nba you have 5, one guy influences the game much more. talent goes much further.

teamwork wont turn a 20 win team into a good team. you need talent.

Agree. A typical team with good teamwork is raptors - when there are no "super star" but with a very good result. Look at how bad NYK performance was in recent years. They have big good names but nothing to produce. LAL with Kobe, Howard, Nash, bababa but that year was horrible for LAL. Teamwork doesn't guarantee a champion but without teamwork it is not likely to enter PO.

guys dont forget the Hawks. 2 seasons ago they surprised everyone, by then horford milsap korver teague none were close to superstar talent, they were among those "he is good but meh that's it" guys, yet they all been voted in allstar and team snatch Eastern conference top seed. Kenny Atkinson was right there as assistant coach for player development.

[ChokeFasncists]

for lin to be really good, any coach has to tolerate his TO issues... he will turn the ball over, but he will make a lot more plays that a star player usually makes... Lin can't subdue his aggressiveness, that's essential for his scoring and play making...

I think he is much improved last season, those mind bogging change mind in mid-air give up a layup/floater/jumper for a pass, dont remember seeing it last yr, correct me if i am wrong. probe much better, drive into a crowd a lot less, and he learn ways to solved it eventually. irrc last yr about half of his TOs come from loose force pass, another half from got hit/strip while driving? anyone can make a video about all of his TOs then we can count the types with exact number.

biggest concern is still his 3p shooting, he have to kill the big man switch on him, or opponent can always switch on him then his offense is dead. in PO Heat figured out switched Haslem on him but he banked in a flute, that wont happen everyday.

A lot of his TOs came from charging too. Cliff and Silas helped him a great deal.

His three point shooting will surely improve from last season getting used to the form change.

[Travers]

for lin to be really good, any coach has to tolerate his TO issues... he will turn the ball over, but he will make a lot more plays that a star player usually makes... Lin can't subdue his aggressiveness, that's essential for his scoring and play making...

I think he is much improved last season, those mind bogging change mind in mid-air give up a layup/floater/jumper for a pass, dont remember seeing it last yr, correct me if i am wrong. probe much better, drive into a crowd a lot less, and he learn ways to solved it eventually. irrc last yr about half of his TOs come from loose force pass, another half from got hit/strip while driving? anyone can make a video about all of his TOs then we can count the types with exact number.

biggest concern is still his 3p shooting, he have to kill the big man switch on him, or opponent can always switch on him then his offense is dead. in PO Heat figured out switched Haslem on him but he banked in a flute, that wont happen everyday.

A lot of his TOs came from charging too. Cliff and Silas helped him a great deal.

His three point shooting will surely improve from last season getting used to the form change.

I would say it's very reasonable that Lin had high turnover rate in Knicks:

1. He was inexperienced as a rookie back in 2012.
2. He was playing up tempo game which will commit more turnover with more risky passes.
3. PG's usage rate in MDA's system is much higher and results in more turnovers.
4. He was not familiar with his teammates, system, and actually never practice with them before.
5. As the 1st Asian American "scrub" with national popularity, every opponent was bringing their A game facing Lin, and mission to stop Linsanity adding further motivation.

MDA knows these, and had said that his turnover rate will come down with more experience. But would always a bit high in his up tempo system.

[m40]

I think he is much improved last season, those mind bogging change mind in mid-air give up a layup/floater/jumper for a pass, dont remember seeing it last yr, correct me if i am wrong. probe much better, drive into a crowd a lot less, and he learn ways to solved it eventually. irrc last yr about half of his TOs come from loose force pass, another half from got hit/strip while driving? anyone can make a video about all of his TOs then we can count the types with exact number.

biggest concern is still his 3p shooting, he have to kill the big man switch on him, or opponent can always switch on him then his offense is dead. in PO Heat figured out switched Haslem on him but he banked in a flute, that wont happen everyday.

A lot of his TOs came from charging too. Cliff and Silas helped him a great deal.

His three point shooting will surely improve from last season getting used to the form change.

I would say it's very reasonable that Lin has high turnover rate in Knicks:

1. He was inexperience as a rookie in 2012.
2. He was playing up tempo game which will commit more turnover with more risky passes.
3. PG's usage rate in MDA's system is much higher and result in more turnovers.
4. He was not familiar with his teammates, system, and actually never practice with them before.
5. As the 1st Asian American "scrub" with national popularity, every opponent was bringing their A game facing Lin, and mission to stopping Linsanity adding further motivation.

MDA knows these, and always said that his turnover rate will come down with more experience. But would always a bit high in his up tempo system.

People expects Lin in 2012 to be MJ - first 5 or 6 games scoring and assist with all time the best record in NBA history while better to be zero TO. Lin fans are realistic to expect he will improve his TO issue over years while haters want him to be Stephen curry right now or never start him for good.

[gafun]

for lin to be really good, any coach has to tolerate his TO issues... he will turn the ball over, but he will make a lot more plays that a star player usually makes... Lin can't subdue his aggressiveness, that's essential for his scoring and play making...

Or, If lin or any other player can help the team to win, any coach will tolerate his TO issues.

[jbeachboy]

give lin 30 minutes a game.

[gafun]

give lin 30 minutes a game.

Good plan - Average 7 mins/quarter and 9 mins in 4th.

[Prokorov]

Harden is light years better than lin is an exaggeration. Harden is an elite scorer but he is not an elite team player like Lin. He is like a poor man's Kobe. He has all the offensive talent but is not willing to play defense which he is more than capable. When the leader of the team does not trusts his teammates on the offensive end and then expects them to play defense for him. No way the team is going to get near a championship(finals). As for Lin a veteran point guard, he is looking to elevate both the defensive and offensive end of the team's play by being an unselfish pass first point guard and put everything on the line on defense. Playing unselfish will be contagious! Gonna to be fun to watch! Go Nets go!!

its not an exaggeration. by every measure he is leaps and bounds better... whether its offense, playmaking, or impact. again, this isnt my opinion, these are the facts.

by basicall all statistical measures both volume and advanced Harden is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Lin. even if you use Lins PER36 stats:


*** VOLUME STATS ***

Points:
Harden - 29.0
Lin - 16.1

Rebounds:
Harden - 6.1
Lin 3.2

Assists:
Harden - 7.5
Lin - 3.0

Steals:
Harden - 1.7
Lin 1.0

Turnovers:
Harden - 4.6
Lin - 2.6

*** ADVANCED STATS ***

PER:
Harden - 25.3
Lin - 13.8

TS %:
Harden - 59.8
Lin - 53.4

Assist%:
Harden - 35.4%
Lin - 18.6%

Points Per Possession:
Harden: 1.15
Lin: 1.02

eFG%:
Harden - 51.2%
Lin - 46.4%

*** IMPACT STATS ***

RAPM:
Harden - +4.28
Lin - (-0.91)

RPM:
Harden - +4.39
Lin - (-0.83)

ORPM:
Harden - +5.37
Lin - (-0.65)

DRPM:
Harden - (-0.98)
Lin - (-0.18)

Win Shares:
Harden - 13.3
Lin - 3.5

Defensive Win Shares:
Harden - 2.6
Lin - 2.3


So please, dont give me this anecdotal stuff that lin is anywhere near harden in any aspect. As Shown, with facts (you dont seem to like using those) Harden is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Lin whether you go by raw volume stats, whether you go advanced stats, percentages, and efficiency with normalize volume, and, despite you implying lin having a higher impact on winning, Harden is MUCH better when it comes to impact stats... In fact, it might be the biggest size difference of any area... meaning hardens biggest advantage over lin is his impact on winning....

Harden is 13th in RAPM, Lin is 106th (and a negative RAPM)
Harden is 15th in RPM, Lin is 206th (and a negative RPM)

Harden is top 10 in the NBA in:
Points
PER
WS
TS%
Assist %
Assists
ORPM
eFG%

Lin is top ten in.... nothing. there are only 2 areas where lin isnt worse... Defensive RAPM (where lin is still a negative himself) and Turnovers. Everything else is a landslide for harden.


So please. dont direct your responses to me, its not me you are arguing with, its the facts that you are arguing with.

I have gotten critisim in this thread for lumping all lin fans together. if you are a Lin fan now is a chance to show you are not a riddiculous, unbiased troll fanboy.

It is so riddiculous to compare that if someone started a thread for "lin vs. harden" on the player comparison board they might get perma-banned

Can you link me to where you got Lin's RAPM stats? I just checked "the spreadsheet" and Lin shows positive across the board in multi year and in single year he was only a negative on ORAPM (-0.76)

yea it was +.91 not -.91

either way, enormous gap between he and harden in RAPM and all the impact stats

[Prokorov]

Edit: per mods, not responding to m40 anymore.

[Prokorov]

gee, gotta skip all those text walls about Lin vs Harden. beating a dead horse is not fit to describe it already, gotta replace it with a mammoth fossil.

they had different position different roll in the team all along, how can you compare? coming season they may have similar roll, then we will see. if you want to find out who is better so badly, wait for them match up head to head, like Yao vs Shaq long time ago. stats will always tell only part of the story, worst part, part of story A mix with part of story B, maybe more, the other guy can always argue the rest of story missed by stats, if both side try to convince the other side, it will never end. stats certainly can help, just dont solely rely on it. just remember every professional basketball coach watch tapes.

IMO video analysis +some stats is much more enjoyable and easier for everyone to understand what happens, anyone?

thats like saying you cant say lebron is better then marquis teague because they have different roles.

Harden is so much better then lin it doesnt matter what the roles are. its not close. harden is a mvp calibur top 5-10 player. lin is an average nba player