Welcome Okafor: Thread 2

[Ericb5]

Greg Monroe was better in his rookie season than Okafor was in his rookie season also. But that's not the point. The point is no-defense Centers are NOT valuable. If we lose Embiid to injury, Okafor is not an adequate replacement and whatever he provides can be easily replicated by Greg Monroe (available for free) Nik Vucevic (likely available) or Enes Kanter (easily obtainable).

Or you can actually trade Andrew Bogut for nothing.
Oh and one thing i learned from this board: As a rookie if you are disliked by some guys here then you will never improve and always be what you are as a rookie.
Oh and to say Monroe is better as a rookie is purly lying

Since you're being a bit disrespectful by calling me a liar. I'll put it to you very simple, junior. Go check the stats.

Lloyd, would you not concede that Okafor is more talented than Kanter or Monroe?

Despite the fact that you think he is in the same category as those two, I don't think either of them are anywhere near the talent as Okafor.

Okafor doesn't just have a knack for scoring, he has SPECIAL scoring ability and potential. In the right situation he could be one of the top scorers in the league.

On the defensive and rebounding side he is young and has the potential to get better. Aldridge and Nowitzki are two guys that come to mind. They rebound and defend at respectable levels, and they were poor in those areas early.

He isn't good enough in those areas today, but at the very least he should be given 3 years from college to improve in those areas before he is written off.


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[BullyKing]

I lean Democrat, so that hurts a bit.

I figured it would. I've previously said that you were one of my favorite posters here and I definitely respect your basketball knowledge/analysis. I just wish it was your pre-Okafor pick persona.

Naaa. Whatever persona I had before Okafor is the same now. You just don't agree with me now as much as you may have agreed with me in the past. You are a different kind of fan than me, that's all. I'm critical of MY teams players as well as other team's players. I think you take it personally when someone says something negative about a player on the team. I'm now a bad and obnoxious fan because I'm critical of Okafor and won't let up.

I get it. This is a community board and you open yourself up to attacks if you are antagonistic to the common thought. I get it and I'm fine with it. Just don't name call without substance. Tell me why I'm wrong about Okafor without saying your "Donald Trump" or "he's only 19". That don't mean shi...

I really don't take it personally when someone is critical of a player on the Sixers. I think plenty of guys on the Sixers stink and have no problem saying so. My issue is that I do think you've changed your persona in the sense that opinions are now facts. That is what I was debating with your opinion about Korkmaz. You're entitled to your opinion on him, in fact I respect your opinion on him. But it's the idea that your opinion of him, which is necessarily based on somewhat limited information, is gospel. Maybe you were always like that but I don't remember it that way. And maybe its semantics but its not a persuasive style. I'd equally bristle at someone saying Korkmaz is a surefire starter.

Your post above is a good example - you construct this false choice between us as "different" kinds of fans because as you see it, you can be real about things and I take it personally. While this narrative might make you feel better, it's not actually based on anything. It's not that people could validly hold different opinions but rather someone could only disagree with you because they lack the ability to see things as they really are. It's that classic narcissistic trait that led to the Trump comparisons. It's not the content of your posts that bother me, it's the repetition and unnecessarily acerbic style. Look at how I am with PhillyNJ (or whatever the hell his name is) on the T & T Board. I am constantly commenting on how ridiculous it is the extent to which he overvalues Sixers players. I hate extremism on both poles.

And for Okafor, I'm not here to tell you he's a good defender right now. He's not. But I think he is not as hopelessly bad as portrayed for two reasons. First is that I think defense was a relatively new concept to him last year. Seems pretty clear to me that he spent his entire development working on offensive moves that made his reputation. Add to that the stories that he was basically told not to foul in the past to avoid foul trouble and it's not surprising that he looked lost on that end. The second point is there are some positive attributes including actual on-ball defense. So there's at least something to work with. To me, his two main problems are 1. being totally clueless on pick and roll defense and 2. low rebounding rate. Since he was a good offensive rebounder in college, he seems to have some idea of how to anticipate rebounds, which makes me think his defensive problems relate to positioning. That it something that can be improved. I have more long term concerns about his pick and roll defense but I hope the impact of that can be mitigate by having the other defensive pair in that scenario not be a complete sieve in his own right like Ish Smith.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/nba-pm-the-truth-about-rookie-defense/

[ET Da Gawd]

Greg Monroe averaged 9 and 7 his rookie year in 28 MPG.

Get this Lloyd dude outta here lol, Monroe doesnt even have 1/5 of Okafors offensive game. They both bad defenders, Okafor only had 1 year though. Lots of fans on here dislike big men scoring on Isos, would prefer airhead alley catchers with no offensive skillsets...very weird days on this board lately

[Los5782]

See in that Keith Pompey article he mentions Okafor being at 257lbs , that'd be amazing if accurate.

[LloydFree]

Greg Monroe averaged 9 and 7 his rookie year in 28 MPG.

Rookie years:

Greg Monroe: OBPM 1.4, DBPM 1.0, BPM 2.5, VORP 2.5
Jahlil Okafor : OBPM -2.6, DBPM -1.5, BPM -4.1, VORP -0.8

[kriss73]

Greg Monroe averaged 9 and 7 his rookie year in 28 MPG.

Rookie years:

Greg Monroe: OBPM 1.4, DBPM 1.0, BPM 2.5, VORP 2.5
Jahlil Okafor : OBPM -2.6, DBPM -1.5, BPM -4.1, VORP -0.8

Monroe's rookie advanced stats are very similar to KAT's ones.

So,maybe, is one year a too short sample size to make great future projections?
This could be the lesson in my opinion.

[Kolkmania]

I really hate conversations that end up with some list of "advanced metrics" without any context. Yes, Okafor was a bad defender. Yes, he didn't grab many defensive rebounds. But playing besides Nerlens Noel, being surrounded by guards who can't defend a lamppost and a lack of off-ball movement affect these stats.

Nerlens Noel 2014/2015: OBPM -3.7, DBPM 4.5, BPM 0.8, VORP 1.6, WS 4.0
Nerlens Noel 2015/2016: OBPM -2.7, DBPM 3.4, BPM 0.7, VORP 1.3, WS 3.0

Nearly every stat declined in comparison with Nerlens' rookie year. Does that make him a worse player than a year ago? No, he was put in a worse situation. Advanced stats are great tools to support arguments, just throwing them on the table without any context is worthless.

[PhilasFinest]

Greg Monroe averaged 9 and 7 his rookie year in 28 MPG.

Rookie years:

Greg Monroe: OBPM 1.4, DBPM 1.0, BPM 2.5, VORP 2.5
Jahlil Okafor : OBPM -2.6, DBPM -1.5, BPM -4.1, VORP -0.8

Monroe's rookie advanced stats are very similar to KAT's ones.

So,maybe, is one year a too short sample size to make great future projections?
This could be the lesson in my opinion.

Probably because both KAT and Monroe's teams won close to 30 games those years.

The Sixers won 10.

I like using advance stats, and you will see me reference them fairly often in my posts.....but losing games tends to lower them. Using them as the sole comparison in players doesn't exactly tell the whole story. This past years Sixer team was arguably one of the most pathetic NBA rosters ever constructed.

[rzzzzz]

I like using advance stats, and you will see me reference them fairly often in my posts.....but losing games tends to lower them. Using them as the sole comparison in players doesn't exactly tell the whole story. This past years Sixer team was arguably one of the most pathetic NBA rosters ever constructed.

stats are useful, but only if you don't go into them with an agenda, and you make an honest effort to eliminate extraneous variables. i'm still more persuaded by Pop's tweet about Okafor from a year ago. looking forward to what he will show us this season, coming in more fit, and motivated by all the new talent.

[ET Da Gawd]

Greg Monroe averaged 9 and 7 his rookie year in 28 MPG.

Rookie years:

Greg Monroe: OBPM 1.4, DBPM 1.0, BPM 2.5, VORP 2.5
Jahlil Okafor : OBPM -2.6, DBPM -1.5, BPM -4.1, VORP -0.8

VORP SLORP MORP....Monroe has 0 moves on the block outside of his classic left spin...He was slow as molasses at Gtown, Advanced stats do not account for actual skill a player has

[LongLiveHinkie]

Yep. Shows you how relevant those stats are. No one who knows anything about basketball could watch Monroe as a rookie and Okafor as a rookie and think Monroe had a better rookie season.

[76ers]

When will we ever learn that advanced stats NEED some sort of context...? Good lord.

[ProcessDoctor]

Greg Monroe averaged 9 and 7 his rookie year in 28 MPG.

Rookie years:

Greg Monroe: OBPM 1.4, DBPM 1.0, BPM 2.5, VORP 2.5
Jahlil Okafor : OBPM -2.6, DBPM -1.5, BPM -4.1, VORP -0.8

VORP SLORP MORP....Monroe has 0 moves on the block outside of his classic left spin...He was slow as molasses at Gtown, Advanced stats do not account for actual skill a player has

I understand if you dislike advanced stats for certain player qualities, but I disagree with the idea that player skill (i.e. crossover, post moves, etc.) holds more value compared to advanced stats when assessing players. I mean, Melo has a sick pillup jumper, AI had the best crossover of all time. How come those didn't translate to championships? Sure, advanced stats don't tell the whole picture, but I don't think they should be undervalued because of that. You can view several lists of the greatest players of all time, and I assure you advanced stats would provide further data/evidence to support most of those lists. All advanced stats have done is provide actual evidence to support an individual player's contributions to winning basketball games relative to everyone else.

[Dave321]

All I hear about are trades with Boston. I think any trade would have to include Boston's 2017 pick with Brooklyn swap rights.

[ET Da Gawd]

Rookie years:

Greg Monroe: OBPM 1.4, DBPM 1.0, BPM 2.5, VORP 2.5
Jahlil Okafor : OBPM -2.6, DBPM -1.5, BPM -4.1, VORP -0.8

VORP SLORP MORP....Monroe has 0 moves on the block outside of his classic left spin...He was slow as molasses at Gtown, Advanced stats do not account for actual skill a player has

I understand if you dislike advanced stats for certain player qualities, but I disagree with the idea that player skill (i.e. crossover, post moves, etc.) holds more value compared to advanced stats when assessing players. I mean, Melo has a sick pillup jumper, AI had the best crossover of all time. How come those didn't translate to championships? Sure, advanced stats don't tell the whole picture, but I don't think they should be undervalued because of that. You can view several lists of the greatest players of all time, and I assure you advanced stats would provide further data/evidence to support most of those lists. All advanced stats have done is provide actual evidence to support an individual player's contributions to winning basketball games relative to everyone else.

Using Adv stats that have lots of it's variables include team success are going to make any and every player on last years tank roster look bad, its poor thinking to really use take those stats to heart. Terrible offensive wings, terrible defensive wings, small ass backcourt who cant shoot or drive & you wonder why Noel & Okafor Adv stats look buns? Common sense, if I'm at work testing software on an unstable infrastructure intentionally, would I be mad at the software not performing well? No, I'd look at the base of where things are installed. Our team was buns on purpose but you love to throw out all the adv stats to make him look bad? You have league pass I'm guessing, how can you think monroe had a better rookie year? How can you look at Jahlil play, esp compared to the droves and droves of bum ass bigmen in this league and say he's no good???? My brain cannot comprehend a majority of this boards line of thinking

[ProcessDoctor]

VORP SLORP MORP....Monroe has 0 moves on the block outside of his classic left spin...He was slow as molasses at Gtown, Advanced stats do not account for actual skill a player has

I understand if you dislike advanced stats for certain player qualities, but I disagree with the idea that player skill (i.e. crossover, post moves, etc.) holds more value compared to advanced stats when assessing players. I mean, Melo has a sick pillup jumper, AI had the best crossover of all time. How come those didn't translate to championships? Sure, advanced stats don't tell the whole picture, but I don't think they should be undervalued because of that. You can view several lists of the greatest players of all time, and I assure you advanced stats would provide further data/evidence to support most of those lists. All advanced stats have done is provide actual evidence to support an individual player's contributions to winning basketball games relative to everyone else.

Using Adv stats that have lots of it's variables include team success are going to make any and every player on last years tank roster look bad, its poor thinking to really use take those stats to heart. Terrible offensive wings, terrible defensive wings, small ass backcourt who cant shoot or drive & you wonder why Noel & Okafor Adv stats look buns? Common sense, if I'm at work testing software on an unstable infrastructure intentionally, would I be mad at the software not performing well? No, I'd look at the base of where things are installed. Our team was buns on purpose but you love to throw out all the adv stats to make him look bad? You have league pass I'm guessing, how can you think monroe had a better rookie year? How can you look at Jahlil play, esp compared to the droves and droves of bum ass bigmen in this league and say he's no good???? My brain cannot comprehend a majority of this boards line of thinking

In fairness, advanced stats did have some good things to say about Okafor. Besides Landry, Okafor had the highest PER of any player on our team. So, you could argue that advanced stats tell a mixed story about Okafor. However, I don't think it's fair to say "he had crappy teammates" and that's why his advanced stats looked bad. Those same crappy teammates had better BPM and VORP than him. How is that possible if the team was so bad? Shouldn't their advanced stats look terrible as well? We can't give Okafor the benefit of the doubt regarding his numbers and then disregard how other players performed under the same circumstances. The only explanation I could think of from a pro-Okafor standpoint is that he might have made them look better, but even then, those players (i.e. Noel, Covington, Ish) all had similar advanced stats on the 14-15 Sixers squad. Like I said, maybe they don't tell the whole story, but when so many numbers point against him being a positive last season then maybe there's something to it?

[LloydFree]

Rookie years:

Greg Monroe: OBPM 1.4, DBPM 1.0, BPM 2.5, VORP 2.5
Jahlil Okafor : OBPM -2.6, DBPM -1.5, BPM -4.1, VORP -0.8

Monroe's rookie advanced stats are very similar to KAT's ones.

So,maybe, is one year a too short sample size to make great future projections?
This could be the lesson in my opinion.

Probably because both KAT and Monroe's teams won close to 30 games those years.

The Sixers won 10.

I like using advance stats, and you will see me reference them fairly often in my posts.....but losing games tends to lower them. Using them as the sole comparison in players doesn't exactly tell the whole story. This past years Sixer team was arguably one of the most pathetic NBA rosters ever constructed.

That goes for all stats, just like the counting stats you posted. I'm not really a stat guy. But when someone says something patently false like "player A is better as a rookie than player B has ever been" then you have to show its wrong by some objective measure, because my subjective view is just opinion.

[LongLiveHinkie]

You clearly have an agenda against Okafor though, and when anyone has an agenda against someone or something, it's hard to take their opinion about that subject matter seriously. I don't mean that in a contentious way, it's just a fact. It's like trying to debate Marcus Hayes about Sam Hinkie. He hates the guy, and will resort to using excuses about Turkey to defend his stance, so it's no use even debating him.

[Agnostifarian]

Okafor will have some big years by the time he's in his mid twenties. Why can't he be coached to run to pick and roll? He has great size and short quickness to set picks and he has great hands and finishing ability rolling to the basket. He's already shown the ability to hit the elbow jumper. I feel confident that his jump shooting will improve and that he can extend his range. Simmons is going to get all of these guys good looks.

I do agree that Jah is going to have to be taught how to play defense because he hasn't figured it out by himself. It's hard to believe he can look so clueless on that end of the floor.

He has to be incentivized to rebound. Goal is 800 rebounds/yr -- 10 per 80 games. We pay $5,000/rebound. That would be $4 million; Reasonable but just a start. Every rebound over 800 pays $15,000. If Jah averages 12 rebounds, he gets $6.4 million.

Let's pay $15,000 per assist and $25,000 per each steal and blocked shot. Finally, we'll pay $2,500 per point.

20 points, 10 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks

50,000 + 50,000 + 60,000 + 50,000 + 50,000

$260,000/game or about $21 million/yr

That's a deal.

You guys done arguing? Did he get traded yet?

[76ers 2020]

Okafor will have some big years by the time he's in his mid twenties. Why can't he be coached to run to pick and roll? He has great size and short quickness to set picks and he has great hands and finishing ability rolling to the basket. He's already shown the ability to hit the elbow jumper. I feel confident that his jump shooting will improve and that he can extend his range. Simmons is going to get all of these guys good looks.

I do agree that Jah is going to have to be taught how to play defense because he hasn't figured it out by himself. It's hard to believe he can look so clueless on that end of the floor.

He has to be incentivized to rebound. Goal is 800 rebounds/yr -- 10 per 80 games. We pay $5,000/rebound. That would be $4 million; Reasonable but just a start. Every rebound over 800 pays $15,000. If Jah averages 12 rebounds, he gets $6.4 million.

Let's pay $15,000 per assist and $25,000 per each steal and blocked shot. Finally, we'll pay $2,500 per point.

20 points, 10 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, 2 blocks

50,000 + 50,000 + 60,000 + 50,000 + 50,000

$260,000/game or about $21 million/yr

That's a deal.

You guys done arguing? Did he get traded yet?

Realistic targets. Numbers achieved by Kareem 4 times, KG once and that's it.