Lebron stat padding 2014 finals

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Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#1 » by HakeemIsTheGOAT » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:21 am

dont get me wrong, i like bron as both a player and a person. i only want to get the full picture here cuz ive heard many credible posters here call Lebron's 2014 playoff runs as one of his best so i assume this performance doesnt trivialise him any way as this article claims

http://nobodytouchesjordan.blogspot.com/2014/09/section-13-lebron-doesnt-have-enough.html

Games 3-4-5
Lebron scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) being down 15+
Leonard scored 27 of his 71 points (38%) being up 15+
Leonard outscored Lebron 44-30 in non-blowout situations

Leonard 23.7 ppg on 69%
LeBron 27.0 ppg on 55%
(Leonard 14% more efficient)

And again, Lebron stats were heavily padded in garbage time, in non blowout situations Leonard outscored him

Leonard 9.3 rpg
LeBron 7.7 rpg

Leonard 2.0 spg
LeBron 1.7 spg

Leonard 2.0 bpg
LeBron 0.7 bpg

Leonard 2.3 apg with 1.7 TOpg
LeBron 4.7 apg with 3.7 TOpg
Leonard had a slightly better ast:TO ratio

Through games 3-4-5, Leonard scored much more efficiently (and more in non blowout situations) and outrebounded, outstole, and outblocked Lebron with a better ast:TO ratio

Game 3
Lebron had 14 points and 0 TO in first quarter, then 8 points and 7 TOs for the last 3 quarters. LeBron had 22-5-7-5 with 7 TOs on 64%, Wade had 22-4-2-2 with 5 TOs on 67%. But over the last 3 quarters, LeBron had 8 points and 7 TOs to Wade's 20 points and 3 TOs. The Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 without LeBron, after Wade subbed in for him, from the 5:00 to 1:00 mark of the 3rd quarter, but even with that help LeBron still lost.

Game 4
Lebron had 9 points in first half and the Heat were blown out by 19 at halftime. He padded his stats from there, and he did not score on Leonard in the first half.

Game 5
Lebron had 1 FG in 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5. Then he did not score again until the Heat were down 21 with 4:40 in the 3rd. LeBron shot 1-6 against Leonard this game.

Leonard clearly outplayed Lebron over the final 3 games, even with Lebron padding his stats, and Lebron failed to score consistently until after his teams were getting blown out. LeBron did not play well in the 2014 Finals after Game 2, he only padded his stats. LeBron's 2014 Finals was a repeat of the 2011 Finals after Game 2, the only differences being that LeBron's teammates disappeared along with him, and LeBron padded his stats to save face. So any notion that LeBron had an "amazing" series, and still lost because of his teammates is false. LeBron failed his team over the Final 3 games, and that's why he lost. He did not contribute offensively or defensively. The Spurs did have great offensive execution in this series, but a lot of that had to do with the poor defensive leadership of LeBron, who got exposed by Kawhi Leonard. Remember, this is the same Spurs team that went 7 games against a top 10 worst defense in the league, the 8-seed Mavericks. They were far from an invincible team.

In those last 3 games, Leonard outrebounded, outblocked, outstole Lebron, scored MUCH more efficiently (14% FG higher than Lebron) and Lebron committed more than twice as many turnovers. In Game 3, LeBron had 14 points in the 1st quarter, then 8 points and 7 turnovers in the last 3 quarters. In Game 4, LeBron had 9 points in the first half, and they were blown out by 19 at that point, from where he padded his stats

The reason the Heat lost the 2014 Finals is because
of their pathetic defense. If the defensive leader, who was
supposedly 2nd place in DPOY and "guards 1-5"
isn't playing defense, how do you expect the rest of the
Heat to follow suit? Getting outplayed in the last
3 games by a role player doesn't help your team AT ALL.

Also, whereas Lebron could never guard Leonard, Leonard held Lebron to 1-6 shooting in Game 5 when he guarded him. In Game 5 Lebron had 1 FG in the 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5, and never scored again until the Spurs were up 21 with 4:40 left in the 3rd - definition of stat padding and not delivering when it mattered. In the 4 combined Heat losses, Lebron scored 48% of his points when the Spurs were up 15+. Definitely not delivering the numbers when he needed to.


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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#2 » by mysticOscar » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:37 am

I was highly critical of Lebron in '14 finals....and it was clear that his stats overstated his impact because he was actually quite passive. I remember getting into massive back and forth on another forum at the time with some of his die hard defenders who keeps pushing there narrative with those empty stats. However, he more than made up for it in the '15 and '16 finals
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#3 » by The High Cyde » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:35 am

His team didn't show up while the other team played with flamethrowers. Having said that, he still played quite well.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#4 » by Colbinii » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:43 pm

LeBron could have put up nearly 50 PPG in that series and the Heat would have still lost.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#5 » by JordansBulls » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:14 pm

mysticOscar wrote:I was highly critical of Lebron in '14 finals....and it was clear that his stats overstated his impact because he was actually quite passive. I remember getting into massive back and forth on another forum at the time with some of his die hard defenders who keeps pushing there narrative with those empty stats. However, he more than made up for it in the '15 and '16 finals

Lebron didn't start playing in those games 3 and 4 until the Heat were down by 20+. And by then the Spurs already knew they had them were they wanted them and thus could not chip there way back into those games.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#6 » by mischievous » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:17 pm

It was a good series by Lebron, but if one were to call it a great one then you're putting too much emphasis on his ts%. It neglects to mention that him getting cramps in game 1 cost them a good shot at that game. He failed to get teammates involved and he had little impact on defense. Sometimes i wander how many people watched that full series and just read the box score claiming he couldn't have done better.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#7 » by LA Bird » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:36 pm

HakeemIsTheGOAT wrote:dont get me wrong, i like bron as both a player and a person.

Says the Kobe fan who put "stat padding" in the title and started off straight away on a negative note.

The reason the Heat lost the 2014 Finals is because of their pathetic defense. If the defensive leader, who was supposedly 2nd place in DPOY and "guards 1-5" isn't playing defense, how do you expect the rest of the Heat to follow suit?

There is a bunch of strawman in here.
> LeBron was not 2nd place in DPOY and 2014 was one of his weaker defensive seasons
> Being able to guard 1-5 would not have stopped the Spurs' 3 point barrage regardless
> LeBron had a -15.4 defensive on-off and Miami were a pathetic 130.5 DRtg without him

The series is kind of overrated by some because of LeBron's TS% but it's not as bad as that blog would make you think.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#8 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:20 pm

I mean, people realize that that Spurs team was better over the course of the playoffs than any Jordan-led team, right? It was probably the single greatest Finals performance of any team, ever. Maybe the greatest single series of all time.

He ran into a sleeping giant. That's it. What was he supposed to do?
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#9 » by Colbinii » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:35 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:I mean, people realize that that Spurs team was better over the course of the playoffs than any Jordan-led team, right? It was probably the single greatest Finals performance of any team, ever. Maybe the greatest single series of all time.

He ran into a sleeping giant. That's it. What was he supposed to do?

He was suppose to guard 5 guys at once while putting up 40 PPG.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#10 » by kabstah » Tue Jul 26, 2016 2:57 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:I mean, people realize that that Spurs team was better over the course of the playoffs than any Jordan-led team, right? It was probably the single greatest Finals performance of any team, ever. Maybe the greatest single series of all time.

He ran into a sleeping giant. That's it. What was he supposed to do?

He was suppose to guard 5 guys at once while putting up 40 PPG.

The crazy thing is that even if he did that, Miami still loses (maybe by 5 points per game rather than 15).

Oh and the blog that the OP linked is the same one that was brought up here:
viewtopic.php?p=45627261#p45626245
PC board hardly ever unanimously agrees on anything, but this time everyone agreed that this Jordan stan did not in fact know what he was talking about.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#11 » by Gus Fring » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:23 pm

Sad. For some reason the general thought on this finals is that LeBron destroyed Leonard and Leonard only got fmvp because "He was the guy on the winning team that defended LeBron" when in reality Leonard did a fantastic job against LeBron on both ends of the floor.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#12 » by Quotatious » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:44 pm

Gus Fring wrote:Sad. For some reason the general thought on this finals is that LeBron destroyed Leonard and Leonard only got fmvp because "He was the guy on the winning team that defended LeBron" when in reality Leonard did a fantastic job against LeBron on both ends of the floor.

No, Leonard's defense in those finals is extremely overrated. 28.2 ppg on 67.9% TS against a top 3 defensive team is phenomenal. LeBron was more efficient than usual, with higher scoring average than usual, so Kawhi shouldn't get any credit for his defense. He didn't limit LBJ's volume OR efficiency.

When Kawhi really played great defense on LeBron was in 2013 finals. 2014, though? Not really.

Leonard did a hell of a job on offense, scoring even more efficiently (although obviously not nearly on the same volume) as James, though. I would say LeBron's defense was poor in that series, as far as guarding Kawhi.

Overall, LeBron had a great series. Setting an all-time record (only KD averaged 25+ ppg on 65+% TS in a finals series in NBA history, if I recall correctly), is an impressive accomplishment on its own. "Stat padding" is a really dumb criticism, because if he didn't play well, the Heat would've gotten swept in a brutal fashion. I think it was more about the Spurs playing best team basketball ever, rather than the Heat being really that terrible, though. Spurs being so great made the Heat look so bad, but I would still bet that Miami beats any other NBA team that year, in a playoff series, and many great teams from other seasons would've looked bad against the 2014 Spurs.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#13 » by Quotatious » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:51 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:I mean, people realize that that Spurs team was better over the course of the playoffs than any Jordan-led team, right? It was probably the single greatest Finals performance of any team, ever. Maybe the greatest single series of all time.

He ran into a sleeping giant. That's it. What was he supposed to do?

He was suppose to guard 5 guys at once while putting up 40 PPG.

Some people even criticize him for the 2009 ECF, simply because his team lost...People really have some absurdly high standards for the man.

I totally agree with Spaceman.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#14 » by RSCD3_ » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:55 pm

Quotatious wrote:
Gus Fring wrote:Sad. For some reason the general thought on this finals is that LeBron destroyed Leonard and Leonard only got fmvp because "He was the guy on the winning team that defended LeBron" when in reality Leonard did a fantastic job against LeBron on both ends of the floor.

No, Leonard's defense in those finals is extremely overrated. 28.2 ppg on 67.9% TS against a top 3 defensive team is phenomenal. LeBron was more efficient than usual, with higher scoring average than usual, so Kawhi shouldn't get any credit for his defense. He didn't limit LBJ's volume OR efficiency.

When Kawhi really played great defense on LeBron was in 2013 finals. 2014, though? Not really.

Leonard did a hell of a job on offense, scoring even more efficiently (although obviously not nearly on the same volume) as James, though. I would say LeBron's defense was poor in that series, as far as guarding Kawhi.

Overall, LeBron had a great series. "Stat padding" is a really dumb criticism, because if he didn't play well, the Heat would've gotten swept in a brutal fashion. I think it was more about the Spurs playing best team basketball ever, rather than the Heat being really that terrible, though. Spurs being so great made the Heat look so bad, but I would still bet that Miami beats any other NBA team that year, in a playoff series, and many great teams from other seasons would've looked bad against the 2014 Spurs.


This same argument could go to say lebron shouldnt get any credit for his defense in the 2012 finals, while kevin durant went off, lebron had other responsibilities elsewhere, partially due to conserve energy. Lebron's efficiency and volume was higher against non kawhi defenders also. So should kawhi get blamed for other of lebron defenders in a similair way that lebron is blamed offensively because his teammates didnt foot the bill?

In my opinion there very similar critiques. Kawhi played good on both ends

Edit: Found the NBAWOWY

On Court Defense 100.3 DRTG
Off Court Defense 116.3 DRTG

Net DRTG: -16.0
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#15 » by Quotatious » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:09 pm

RSCD3_ wrote:This same argument could go to say lebron shouldnt get any credit for his defense in the 2012 finals, while kevin durant went off, lebron had other responsibilities elsewhere, partially due to conserve energy. Lebron's efficiency and volume was higher against non kawhi defenders also. So should kawhi get blamed for other of lebron defenders in a similair way that lebron is blamed offensively because his teammates didnt foot the bill?

In my opinion there very similar critiques. Kawhi played good on both ends

Well, I never said I thought LeBron's 1 on 1 defense against Durant in '12 finals was great. I don't think it was. Durant was hitting a lot of tough contested jumpers against both LeBron and Battier, but I also felt like LeBron could've guarded him a bit more tightly, a lot of times (he didn't want to do it to avoid foul trouble, which is understandable, and the Heat were winning even with Durant scoring as many points as he actually did, so there was no need to tighten up his defense).

LeBron's team defense was much better in '12 finals than '14 finals, though, as far as I can remember (particularly in terms of rotating - but that has something to do with the fact that OKC didn't play as well as SAS as a team, didn't move the ball as well, relied so much more on isolating their stars - Durant and Westbrook, which is the total opposite of the way 2014 Spurs played). In general, 2012 LeBron was considerably superior defensively to 2014 LeBron, so it's not a surprise for me.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#16 » by Arman_tanzarian » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:23 pm

Read up on the blog's title and his accompanying YT page. His whole life mission is to make sure "Nobody Touches Jordan". Spurs put up a near 120 ORTG that series. Most of it was a blow out. Lebron was not without his faults. I thought his defense was hella weak that season but Miami failed and his teammates didn't show up. They looked like a core that went to 4 finals in a row.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#17 » by Gus Fring » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:39 pm

Quotatious wrote:
Gus Fring wrote:Sad. For some reason the general thought on this finals is that LeBron destroyed Leonard and Leonard only got fmvp because "He was the guy on the winning team that defended LeBron" when in reality Leonard did a fantastic job against LeBron on both ends of the floor.

No, Leonard's defense in those finals is extremely overrated. 28.2 ppg on 67.9% TS against a top 3 defensive team is phenomenal. LeBron was more efficient than usual, with higher scoring average than usual, so Kawhi shouldn't get any credit for his defense. He didn't limit LBJ's volume OR efficiency.

When Kawhi really played great defense on LeBron was in 2013 finals. 2014, though? Not really.

Leonard did a hell of a job on offense, scoring even more efficiently (although obviously not nearly on the same volume) as James, though. I would say LeBron's defense was poor in that series, as far as guarding Kawhi.

Overall, LeBron had a great series. Setting an all-time record (only KD averaged 25+ ppg on 65+% TS in a finals series in NBA history, if I recall correctly), is an impressive accomplishment on its own. "Stat padding" is a really dumb criticism, because if he didn't play well, the Heat would've gotten swept in a brutal fashion. I think it was more about the Spurs playing best team basketball ever, rather than the Heat being really that terrible, though. Spurs being so great made the Heat look so bad, but I would still bet that Miami beats any other NBA team that year, in a playoff series, and many great teams from other seasons would've looked bad against the 2014 Spurs.


It's pretty tough to keep a 100% focused LeBron from scoring 28 a game in the finals which is basically his career average, so i'm not gonna fault him for that. The main thing Kawhi did against LeBron and the Heats offense that was great was how he limited his ability to facilitate. The Heat desperately needed LeBron to create opportunities but Kawhi took away many of LeBrons initial options which usually left him in the late shot clock either having to drive right into Duncan and Splitter, try create a shot for himself 1 on 1 against what was usually Kawhi or Danny Green, or just pass out to another player to try and figure it out. Kawhi's ability to be a hound on D not just against LeBron but against the Heats whole offense really slowed down and mucked up the decision making for the Heat, that's why it seemed like they couldn't score and why LeBron averaged 4.7 assists and 3.7 turnovers which are both much worse than his career averages.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#18 » by kayess » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:50 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:I mean, people realize that that Spurs team was better over the course of the playoffs than any Jordan-led team, right? It was probably the single greatest Finals performance of any team, ever. Maybe the greatest single series of all time.

He ran into a sleeping giant. That's it. What was he supposed to do?


I remember you had an epic post pretty much eviscerating double standards about LeBron's greatness after game 2 of that series, it was pretty funny.

To answer your question: he obviously should have shot as much as Kobe Bryant, defended was well as Kobe Bryant, willed his team to win as much as Kobe Bryant

He also shouldn't have cramped up in the first game.

Unless he didn't miss from the field and didn't miss any rotations and made the right pass everytime, then yes obviously he could've played better. Maybe he could've shot more during crucial stretches - but he scored 20 in a quarter and the Spurs actually increased their lead. That doesn't exactly scream "shoot more" to me - if the intent behind it was to get his teammates going I don't blame him at all.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#19 » by Bruh Man » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:57 pm

HakeemIsTheGOAT wrote:dont get me wrong, i like bron as both a player and a person. i only want to get the full picture here cuz ive heard many credible posters here call Lebron's 2014 playoff runs as one of his best so i assume this performance doesnt trivialise him any way as this article claims

http://nobodytouchesjordan.blogspot.com/2014/09/section-13-lebron-doesnt-have-enough.html

Games 3-4-5
Lebron scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) being down 15+
Leonard scored 27 of his 71 points (38%) being up 15+
Leonard outscored Lebron 44-30 in non-blowout situations

Leonard 23.7 ppg on 69%
LeBron 27.0 ppg on 55%
(Leonard 14% more efficient)

And again, Lebron stats were heavily padded in garbage time, in non blowout situations Leonard outscored him

Leonard 9.3 rpg
LeBron 7.7 rpg

Leonard 2.0 spg
LeBron 1.7 spg

Leonard 2.0 bpg
LeBron 0.7 bpg

Leonard 2.3 apg with 1.7 TOpg
LeBron 4.7 apg with 3.7 TOpg
Leonard had a slightly better ast:TO ratio

Through games 3-4-5, Leonard scored much more efficiently (and more in non blowout situations) and outrebounded, outstole, and outblocked Lebron with a better ast:TO ratio

Game 3
Lebron had 14 points and 0 TO in first quarter, then 8 points and 7 TOs for the last 3 quarters. LeBron had 22-5-7-5 with 7 TOs on 64%, Wade had 22-4-2-2 with 5 TOs on 67%. But over the last 3 quarters, LeBron had 8 points and 7 TOs to Wade's 20 points and 3 TOs. The Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 without LeBron, after Wade subbed in for him, from the 5:00 to 1:00 mark of the 3rd quarter, but even with that help LeBron still lost.

Game 4
Lebron had 9 points in first half and the Heat were blown out by 19 at halftime. He padded his stats from there, and he did not score on Leonard in the first half.

Game 5
Lebron had 1 FG in 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5. Then he did not score again until the Heat were down 21 with 4:40 in the 3rd. LeBron shot 1-6 against Leonard this game.

Leonard clearly outplayed Lebron over the final 3 games, even with Lebron padding his stats, and Lebron failed to score consistently until after his teams were getting blown out. LeBron did not play well in the 2014 Finals after Game 2, he only padded his stats. LeBron's 2014 Finals was a repeat of the 2011 Finals after Game 2, the only differences being that LeBron's teammates disappeared along with him, and LeBron padded his stats to save face. So any notion that LeBron had an "amazing" series, and still lost because of his teammates is false. LeBron failed his team over the Final 3 games, and that's why he lost. He did not contribute offensively or defensively. The Spurs did have great offensive execution in this series, but a lot of that had to do with the poor defensive leadership of LeBron, who got exposed by Kawhi Leonard. Remember, this is the same Spurs team that went 7 games against a top 10 worst defense in the league, the 8-seed Mavericks. They were far from an invincible team.

In those last 3 games, Leonard outrebounded, outblocked, outstole Lebron, scored MUCH more efficiently (14% FG higher than Lebron) and Lebron committed more than twice as many turnovers. In Game 3, LeBron had 14 points in the 1st quarter, then 8 points and 7 turnovers in the last 3 quarters. In Game 4, LeBron had 9 points in the first half, and they were blown out by 19 at that point, from where he padded his stats

The reason the Heat lost the 2014 Finals is because
of their pathetic defense. If the defensive leader, who was
supposedly 2nd place in DPOY and "guards 1-5"
isn't playing defense, how do you expect the rest of the
Heat to follow suit? Getting outplayed in the last
3 games by a role player doesn't help your team AT ALL.

Also, whereas Lebron could never guard Leonard, Leonard held Lebron to 1-6 shooting in Game 5 when he guarded him. In Game 5 Lebron had 1 FG in the 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5, and never scored again until the Spurs were up 21 with 4:40 left in the 3rd - definition of stat padding and not delivering when it mattered. In the 4 combined Heat losses, Lebron scored 48% of his points when the Spurs were up 15+. Definitely not delivering the numbers when he needed to.


if this is wrong, i ask that you inform me y

I see nothing wrong here. Spurs would have won the year before as well if not for a miraculous ray Allen 3.
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Re: Lebron stat padding 2014 finals 

Post#20 » by Arman_tanzarian » Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:24 pm

Quotatious wrote:
RSCD3_ wrote:This same argument could go to say lebron shouldnt get any credit for his defense in the 2012 finals, while kevin durant went off, lebron had other responsibilities elsewhere, partially due to conserve energy. Lebron's efficiency and volume was higher against non kawhi defenders also. So should kawhi get blamed for other of lebron defenders in a similair way that lebron is blamed offensively because his teammates didnt foot the bill?

In my opinion there very similar critiques. Kawhi played good on both ends

Well, I never said I thought LeBron's 1 on 1 defense against Durant in '12 finals was great. I don't think it was. Durant was hitting a lot of tough contested jumpers against both LeBron and Battier, but I also felt like LeBron could've guarded him a bit more tightly, a lot of times (he didn't want to do it to avoid foul trouble, which is understandable, and the Heat were winning even with Durant scoring as many points as he actually did, so there was no need to tighten up his defense).

LeBron's team defense was much better in '12 finals than '14 finals, though, as far as I can remember (particularly in terms of rotating - but that has something to do with the fact that OKC didn't play as well as SAS as a team, didn't move the ball as well, relied so much more on isolating their stars - Durant and Westbrook, which is the total opposite of the way 2014 Spurs played). In general, 2012 LeBron was considerably superior defensively to 2014 LeBron, so it's not a surprise for me.


His and Battier's ball denial was key in the series. That KD however was so good off the dribble that he was making shots from everywhere.
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