Welcome Okafor: Thread 2

[lotto29]

I'll say this. If Okafor is still on the team this season then his usage percentage should go down some. Simmons will have the ball in his hands a lot. Also, Okafor's minutes may go down with Embiid and Saric joining the team. Okafor was counted on a lot to score last year plus he loves to shoot anyway. Simmons should give him easier looks and less of a chance for Okafor to hold the ball looking to score. Simmons could give him the ball where all he has to do is put it in the basket instead of scan the court and look around and hold the ball. This should cut down on his turnovers too. Simmons is looking to pass and Okafor is looking to score. The more Okafor knows if he puts himself in position to receive the ball in favorable positions then the more he will fight to get in those positions so Simmons can pass him the ball.

The problem is Okafor is a meh off ball player.

[lotto29]

why were his best games against KAT, Cousins and the Zinger? seems like he has a motivation problem playing on a 10 win team.

Yeah, see, I hate this line of reasoning.

They were a 10-win, *in part*, because Jahlil Okafor was a net-negative player. By like, *a lot*.

And he was a net negative player, among other reasons, because his poor effort and defense.

But we've reached the point where we're all just gonna talk ourselves into circles about Jahlil.

Maybe he'll play with effort this season.

Are u drunk? Lmaoo, dude, we were a 10win team because our backcourt was Ish Smith & Isaiah Canaan, our Wings are trashhhhhhh get beat 100% of the team but no one says SH*T....its weird man, this team has ass guards and SFs but Noel/Okafor get all the blame like they should guard everyone, dudes overplay the screen, dont recover hard, dont fight over the screen, poor feet sliding, no one gives 2 Fs. How Sway??

And the kid showed up again...

[Unbreakable99]

I'll say this. If Okafor is still on the team this season then his usage percentage should go down some. Simmons will have the ball in his hands a lot. Also, Okafor's minutes may go down with Embiid and Saric joining the team. Okafor was counted on a lot to score last year plus he loves to shoot anyway. Simmons should give him easier looks and less of a chance for Okafor to hold the ball looking to score. Simmons could give him the ball where all he has to do is put it in the basket instead of scan the court and look around and hold the ball. This should cut down on his turnovers too. Simmons is looking to pass and Okafor is looking to score. The more Okafor knows if he puts himself in position to receive the ball in favorable positions then the more he will fight to get in those positions so Simmons can pass him the ball.

The problem is Okafor is a meh off ball player.

We don't know if that's entirely true. From what he showed last year you're correct. He's been the focal point of the offense his entire basketball life. The ball always was fed to him. The days of him being the focal point of the offense are gone with the addition of Simmons and Embiid. Okafor will have to learn to move without the ball to get in scoring position. Maybe he can't do that but the reality is he never really had to do it before. Maybe he can do that. We will have to see.

[lotto29]

I'll say this. If Okafor is still on the team this season then his usage percentage should go down some. Simmons will have the ball in his hands a lot. Also, Okafor's minutes may go down with Embiid and Saric joining the team. Okafor was counted on a lot to score last year plus he loves to shoot anyway. Simmons should give him easier looks and less of a chance for Okafor to hold the ball looking to score. Simmons could give him the ball where all he has to do is put it in the basket instead of scan the court and look around and hold the ball. This should cut down on his turnovers too. Simmons is looking to pass and Okafor is looking to score. The more Okafor knows if he puts himself in position to receive the ball in favorable positions then the more he will fight to get in those positions so Simmons can pass him the ball.

The problem is Okafor is a meh off ball player.

We don't know if that's entirely true. From what he showed last year you're correct. He's been the focal point of the offense his entire basketball life. The ball always was fed to him. The days of him being the focal point of the offense are gone with the addition of Simmons and Embiid. Okafor will have to learn to move without the ball to get in scoring position. Maybe he can't do that but the reality is he never really had to do it before. Maybe he can do that. We will have to see.

But are we talking hypotheticals or reality? Right now, he's meh off ball player. That can change (as his defense rebounding and blah blah blah) but I'm going from what I saw so far.

[Unbreakable99]

The problem is Okafor is a meh off ball player.

We don't know if that's entirely true. From what he showed last year you're correct. He's been the focal point of the offense his entire basketball life. The ball always was fed to him. The days of him being the focal point of the offense are gone with the addition of Simmons and Embiid. Okafor will have to learn to move without the ball to get in scoring position. Maybe he can't do that but the reality is he never really had to do it before. Maybe he can do that. We will have to see.

But are we talking hypotheticals or reality? Right now, he's meh off ball player. That can change (as his defense rebounding and blah blah blah) but I'm going from what I saw so far.

Based on past results that's a correct analysis. All I'm saying is Okafor never was not the focal point of the offense. He went to his spots and was passed the ball. We really don't know how he can play if he's not the focal point and has to pick his spots. We also don't know how he will look with a phenomenal passer like Simmons who could give him the ball in great spots for him to score right away instead of surveying the court holding the ball. It's almost similar to people saying Simmons can't shoot. Well he never shot from the outside a lot. He never really had too. It doesn't mean he can't shoot from the outside. Simmons is going to have to work on his shot and he may become a good shooter. We have to give him time just like we need to give Okafor time to see if he can play without the ball or being the focal point.

[Arsenal]

He's so bad.

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Every guy that plays for Brett Brown plays hard except for Jahlil Okafor and you guys are defending him like he's a superstar in the making. SMDH.

Other than ETdagawd I don't see anyone saying that he is a superstar in the making.

What jumps out at me from watching those gif's is that he is unsure what to do. That is what I always see with him on defense. He doesn't know if he is supposed to follow the person that he is defending to the top of the key, or stay under the basket. He is slow to react, and he isn't explosive enough like Noel to make up for the poor recognition with athleticism.

He looks bad in these clips, but I will be much more concerned if he looks like this on defense at the end of his third year. Most naysayers think that he is what he is, and I think that he needs major coaching, and will improve.

I feel like you're not appreciating the utter lack of effort he showed. It's beyond being unsure, it's not caring.

This has been a consistent issue with him his entire career, why do we think it will improve?

He hasn't had to care about defense in his whole life until now. We'll see how he responds. In addition, part of it is a conditioning issue. It was obvious he was gassed in many games after starting out strong.

Certainly conditioning and willingness to play defense can improve.

[lotto29]

We don't know if that's entirely true. From what he showed last year you're correct. He's been the focal point of the offense his entire basketball life. The ball always was fed to him. The days of him being the focal point of the offense are gone with the addition of Simmons and Embiid. Okafor will have to learn to move without the ball to get in scoring position. Maybe he can't do that but the reality is he never really had to do it before. Maybe he can do that. We will have to see.

But are we talking hypotheticals or reality? Right now, he's meh off ball player. That can change (as his defense rebounding and blah blah blah) but I'm going from what I saw so far.

Based on past results that's a correct analysis. All I'm saying is Okafor never was not the focal point of the offense. He went to his spots and was passed the ball. We really don't know how he can play if he's not the focal point and has to pick his spots. We also don't know how he will look with a phenomenal passer like Simmons who could give him the ball in great spots for him to score right away instead of surveying the court holding the ball. It's almost similar to people saying Simmons can't shoot. Well he never shot from the outside a lot. He never really had too. It doesn't mean he can't shoot from the outside. Simmons is going to have to work on his shot and he may become a good shooter. We have to give him time just like we need to give Okafor time to see if he can play without the ball or being the focal point.

Players who play a different way from what they previous did are not going to do well. Generally(90% of the time) that's what happens. They may improve over the years and open up the rest of their game but it's not going to be what you expect.

[CoreyGallagher]

why were his best games against KAT, Cousins and the Zinger? seems like he has a motivation problem playing on a 10 win team.

Yeah, see, I hate this line of reasoning.

They were a 10-win, *in part*, because Jahlil Okafor was a net-negative player. By like, *a lot*.

And he was a net negative player, among other reasons, because his poor effort and defense.

But we've reached the point where we're all just gonna talk ourselves into circles about Jahlil.

Maybe he'll play with effort this season.

Exactly. They were a ten win team partly because he was on the floor. They were a 19 win team and Noel almost won ROY with Henry Sims in the same spot.

We shouldn't ignore the sample that we have after he got injured as an alternative to not having him at all, and we even had Ish during that entire span. Our defense was worse in those 23 games than it was with Okafor on the court the entire season and we couldn't score enough to even stay competitive - hence only beating other bottom dwellers without him and being capable of beating better teams with him.

[Unbreakable99]

But are we talking hypotheticals or reality? Right now, he's meh off ball player. That can change (as his defense rebounding and blah blah blah) but I'm going from what I saw so far.

Based on past results that's a correct analysis. All I'm saying is Okafor never was not the focal point of the offense. He went to his spots and was passed the ball. We really don't know how he can play if he's not the focal point and has to pick his spots. We also don't know how he will look with a phenomenal passer like Simmons who could give him the ball in great spots for him to score right away instead of surveying the court holding the ball. It's almost similar to people saying Simmons can't shoot. Well he never shot from the outside a lot. He never really had too. It doesn't mean he can't shoot from the outside. Simmons is going to have to work on his shot and he may become a good shooter. We have to give him time just like we need to give Okafor time to see if he can play without the ball or being the focal point.

Players who play a different way from what they previous did are not going to do well. Generally(90% of the time) that's what happens. They may improve over the years and open up the rest of their game but it's not going to be what you expect.

It's not like Okafor has to abandon everything he's good at on offense because Simmons is now the focal point. Okafor can still do what he does best and still post up asking for the ball or getting the ball 18ft out. Okafor just needs to be able to implement moving off the ball more now. He needs to be aware of not just standing still calling for the ball all the time. It's going to be a change but he has a pretty high basketball IQ. He knows if he moves away from the ball then Simmons will pass him the ball.

[Ericb5]

I think that the team based defensive metrics when Okafor is on the floor is valid to a certain extent in the sense that he isn't currently a good defender.

However, the team based offensive statistics are mostly bogus because what they are measuring is not HIS effectiveness on offense, but rather the TEAM'S effectiveness in running a post offense. This gives the illusion that he isn't a good offensive player, when anyone with two eyes can see that he is. This metric is an indictment of the spacing on offense, and the competency of the point guard.

Replacing McConnell with Ish was an improvement in this regard, but having Simmons run the offense will have a HUGE effect on this next year. Watch the Offensive efficiency when Okafor is on the floor rise quickly next year from just adding Simmons to the team.

Plus when you put Okafor next to an offensive zero like Noel vs putting him next to a dynamic offensive player like Embiid, you are also opening things up a lot inside.

[lotto29]

Based on past results that's a correct analysis. All I'm saying is Okafor never was not the focal point of the offense. He went to his spots and was passed the ball. We really don't know how he can play if he's not the focal point and has to pick his spots. We also don't know how he will look with a phenomenal passer like Simmons who could give him the ball in great spots for him to score right away instead of surveying the court holding the ball. It's almost similar to people saying Simmons can't shoot. Well he never shot from the outside a lot. He never really had too. It doesn't mean he can't shoot from the outside. Simmons is going to have to work on his shot and he may become a good shooter. We have to give him time just like we need to give Okafor time to see if he can play without the ball or being the focal point.

Players who play a different way from what they previous did are not going to do well. Generally(90% of the time) that's what happens. They may improve over the years and open up the rest of their game but it's not going to be what you expect.

It's not like Okafor has to abandon everything he's good at on offense because Simmons is now the focal point. Okafor can still do what he does best and still post up asking for the ball or getting the ball 18ft out. Okafor just needs to be able to implement moving off the ball more now. He needs to be aware of not just standing still calling for the ball all the time. It's going to be a change but he has a pretty high basketball IQ. He knows if he moves away from the ball then Simmons will pass him the ball.

I'm only talking about his off ball movement adaption not his entire offensive game as a whole.

[Ericb5]

Based on past results that's a correct analysis. All I'm saying is Okafor never was not the focal point of the offense. He went to his spots and was passed the ball. We really don't know how he can play if he's not the focal point and has to pick his spots. We also don't know how he will look with a phenomenal passer like Simmons who could give him the ball in great spots for him to score right away instead of surveying the court holding the ball. It's almost similar to people saying Simmons can't shoot. Well he never shot from the outside a lot. He never really had too. It doesn't mean he can't shoot from the outside. Simmons is going to have to work on his shot and he may become a good shooter. We have to give him time just like we need to give Okafor time to see if he can play without the ball or being the focal point.

Players who play a different way from what they previous did are not going to do well. Generally(90% of the time) that's what happens. They may improve over the years and open up the rest of their game but it's not going to be what you expect.

It's not like Okafor has to abandon everything he's good at on offense because Simmons is now the focal point. Okafor can still do what he does best and still post up asking for the ball or getting the ball 18ft out. Okafor just needs to be able to implement moving off the ball more now. He needs to be aware of not just standing still calling for the ball all the time. It's going to be a change but he has a pretty high basketball IQ. He knows if he moves away from the ball then Simmons will pass him the ball.

Okafor doesn't need a lot of plays specifically run for him to score. Let him post up with called plays 5 or 6 times a game, and let him be a release valve on drives form Simmons, and he will score regularly. The offense doesn't have to slow down for him to be able to score efficiently. We need him to abuse matchups from time to time, and finish for Simmons mostly.

[Easymoney]

Players who play a different way from what they previous did are not going to do well. Generally(90% of the time) that's what happens. They may improve over the years and open up the rest of their game but it's not going to be what you expect.

It's not like Okafor has to abandon everything he's good at on offense because Simmons is now the focal point. Okafor can still do what he does best and still post up asking for the ball or getting the ball 18ft out. Okafor just needs to be able to implement moving off the ball more now. He needs to be aware of not just standing still calling for the ball all the time. It's going to be a change but he has a pretty high basketball IQ. He knows if he moves away from the ball then Simmons will pass him the ball.

Okafor doesn't need a lot of plays specifically run for him to score. Let him post up with called plays 5 or 6 times a game, and let him be a release valve on drives form Simmons, and he will score regularly. The offense doesn't have to slow down for him to be able to score efficiently. We need him to abuse matchups from time to time, and finish for Simmons mostly.

I would ISO Okafor when Simmons is on the bench so that our offense does not completely collapse and I would do it intermittently while Ben is on the court, to give him a break. Basically the way Cleveland uses Irving.

I find the idea that Jah can't play off-ball to be ridiculous. Big men love playing with guys who can get them touches in their spots and multiple easy looks a game. Do people honestly believe that Jah is any different, especially after scoring the hard way so frequently this past season?

I also agree that I just don't see the logic in trading him for players who have inferior ceilings. Make no mistake about it, Jah with just average defense and rebounding would be considered, at the very lease, a top 10 player in the league during his prime. His ability to score the ball is THAT special.

[Ericb5]

It's not like Okafor has to abandon everything he's good at on offense because Simmons is now the focal point. Okafor can still do what he does best and still post up asking for the ball or getting the ball 18ft out. Okafor just needs to be able to implement moving off the ball more now. He needs to be aware of not just standing still calling for the ball all the time. It's going to be a change but he has a pretty high basketball IQ. He knows if he moves away from the ball then Simmons will pass him the ball.

Okafor doesn't need a lot of plays specifically run for him to score. Let him post up with called plays 5 or 6 times a game, and let him be a release valve on drives form Simmons, and he will score regularly. The offense doesn't have to slow down for him to be able to score efficiently. We need him to abuse matchups from time to time, and finish for Simmons mostly.

I would ISO Okafor when Simmons is on the bench so that our offense does not completely collapse and I would do it intermittently while Ben is on the court, to give him a break. Basically the way Cleveland uses Irving.

I find the idea that Jah can't play off-ball to be ridiculous. Big men love playing with guys who can get them touches in their spots and multiple easy looks a game. Do people honestly believe that Jah is any different, especially after scoring the hard way so frequently this past season?

I also agree that I just don't see the logic in trading him for players who have inferior ceilings. Make no mistake about it, Jah with just average defense and rebounding would be considered, at the very lease, a top 10 player in the league during his prime. His ability to score the ball is THAT special.

I don't agree that he can be a top ten player if he can have average defense and rebounding, but I would argue that he could be a multiple time all star if he does that.


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[76ciology]

I think that the team based defensive metrics when Okafor is on the floor is valid to a certain extent in the sense that he isn't currently a good defender.

Team based defensive metrics shows the team plays only 1% better on defense when Jah is off the court (Team's DFG w/Jah on vs off: 47% vs 46%)?

[Easymoney]

Okafor doesn't need a lot of plays specifically run for him to score. Let him post up with called plays 5 or 6 times a game, and let him be a release valve on drives form Simmons, and he will score regularly. The offense doesn't have to slow down for him to be able to score efficiently. We need him to abuse matchups from time to time, and finish for Simmons mostly.

I would ISO Okafor when Simmons is on the bench so that our offense does not completely collapse and I would do it intermittently while Ben is on the court, to give him a break. Basically the way Cleveland uses Irving.

I find the idea that Jah can't play off-ball to be ridiculous. Big men love playing with guys who can get them touches in their spots and multiple easy looks a game. Do people honestly believe that Jah is any different, especially after scoring the hard way so frequently this past season?

I also agree that I just don't see the logic in trading him for players who have inferior ceilings. Make no mistake about it, Jah with just average defense and rebounding would be considered, at the very lease, a top 10 player in the league during his prime. His ability to score the ball is THAT special.

I don't agree that he can be a top ten player if he can have average defense and rebounding, but I would argue that he could be a multiple time all star if he does that.


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Let's say a 25 year old prime Okafor is putting up a line of 25/9/3/1, with a 55+ TS and average defense. You would struggle to find 10 guys who are better than that, even today. **** Melo was considered a top 10 player forever and he was average at best on D, when he tried.

[76ciology]

here's the upside of Jah on defense..

1.) He likes to defend his man than providing weak side defense. And he's above average at it. ( poor vertical but has good length and mobility)
2.) He has the tools to be a good rebounder (hands, standing reach, mobility, and strength)

I think it's easier for him to transition into a PF on defense similar to LMA, David West, Love or Blake Griffin. Easier for him to stay in front of his man, switching on screens (i find him not bad on challenging shots from perimeter) and grabbing rebounds. Most bigs eventually loose weight, add experience and expand their range.

That said, if Embiid is as good as advertised, I think he's a player who can mask Jah's weakness. Embiid allows Jah to be defended by PFs, he can space the floor and protect the rim at elite level.

[lotto29]

And the Okafor at the 4 continues... Ffs

[marcush]

I think that the team based defensive metrics when Okafor is on the floor is valid to a certain extent in the sense that he isn't currently a good defender.

Team based defensive metrics shows the team plays only 1% better on defense when Jah is off the court (Team's DFG w/Jah on vs off: 47% vs 46%)?

There is only 4.6% between first (Atlanta 43.2) and last (Brooklyn at 47.8), so 1% might be considerable in that measurement, especially if those numbers are getting rounded....

[LloydFree]

Let's say a 25 year old prime Okafor is putting up a line of 25/9/3/1, with a 55+ TS and average defense. You would struggle to find 10 guys who are better than that, even today. **** Melo was considered a top 10 player forever and he was average at best on D, when he tried.

Errr um... uh... nevermind.