Orlando early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Smitty731/HowardMass)

[Andre Roberstan]

yeah yeah, your continued hate for Ibaka continues. He still had 2 bpg last year, more than anything Orlando had. Also Biyombo will add to the post defense. Ibaka 5X better than Vuc for post defense. Ibaka perfect fit to play with Vuc and then even tougher when Biyombo in.

Ibaka is one of my favorite players. Don't put words in my mouth. I've actually been one of his biggest defenders both here and on Reddit.

I'm not disputing anything of that, just was curious who you were referring to with post defense. Pointing out that Serge is most comfortable as a weak-side shot blocker rather than a primary post defender isn't hating on him any more than saying Vucevic is a good offensive player with limited defensive utility is.

sorry, might have gotten you confused with Bondom.

I don't think he's an Ibaka hater either?

Honestly most of the RealGM OKC guys like Serge. Reddit hates him.

[tiderulz]

Ibaka is one of my favorite players. Don't put words in my mouth. I've actually been one of his biggest defenders both here and on Reddit.

I'm not disputing anything of that, just was curious who you were referring to with post defense. Pointing out that Serge is most comfortable as a weak-side shot blocker rather than a primary post defender isn't hating on him any more than saying Vucevic is a good offensive player with limited defensive utility is.

sorry, might have gotten you confused with Bondom.

I don't hate Serge. I stated many times he's not been nearly as effective for 2 years. That's not wrong.

you've gone beyond just "stating that."

[bondom34]

sorry, might have gotten you confused with Bondom.

I don't hate Serge. I stated many times he's not been nearly as effective for 2 years. That's not wrong.

you've gone beyond just "stating that."

OK...I mean, he was one of my faves for years, but ok.

[j-ragg]

I still find it comical that OKC posters continually laugh at how lopsided the trade was but before it happened, they turned down a hypothetical version of it on this board.

But I guess once ESPN says it's a rip off you just gotta go with the flow. Not hating, just don't like the wishy washy attitude. Own up to it if you thought it wasn't a good trade for you it's okay to stand out.

Anywho I didn't mind our offseason. Oladipo was tough to lose from an emotional standpoint but from a talent one, we will definitely survive. Fournier is similarly talented but a better fit for us. I think Vogel wanted this team to have an identity and he got it, with flexibility. Lots of guys on decent value deals, no real bad contracts unless a 1 year deal counts.

[Andre Roberstan]

I still find it comical that OKC posters continually laugh at how lopsided the trade was but before it happened, they turned down a hypothetical version of it on this board.

But I guess once ESPN says it's a rip off you just gotta go with the flow. Not hating, just don't like the wishy washy attitude. Own up to it if you thought it wasn't a good trade for you it's okay to stand out.

Anywho I didn't mind our offseason. Oladipo was tough to lose from an emotional standpoint but from a talent one, we will definitely survive. Fournier is similarly talented but a better fit for us. I think Vogel wanted this team to have an identity and he got it, with flexibility. Lots of guys on decent value deals, no real bad contracts unless a 1 year deal counts.

I disliked it because I didn't realize Oladipo was an adequate shooter until I did some research after the trade, and the #11 being Sabonis tipped it over the edge for me. Yeah, I'm on record as pooh-poohing the original trade idea—not for value, but for fit. But Dipo's at least a better shooter than Robes, and I didn't realize that he's actually pretty solid as a spot-up guy in the corners.

It is still true that we have a big hole at the 4—all we've done is move the problem spot—but hopefully Sabonis develops to be that guy.

[bondom34]

I still find it comical that OKC posters continually laugh at how lopsided the trade was but before it happened, they turned down a hypothetical version of it on this board.

But I guess once ESPN says it's a rip off you just gotta go with the flow. Not hating, just don't like the wishy washy attitude. Own up to it if you thought it wasn't a good trade for you it's okay to stand out.

Anywho I didn't mind our offseason. Oladipo was tough to lose from an emotional standpoint but from a talent one, we will definitely survive. Fournier is similarly talented but a better fit for us. I think Vogel wanted this team to have an identity and he got it, with flexibility. Lots of guys on decent value deals, no real bad contracts unless a 1 year deal counts.

I disliked it because I didn't realize Oladipo was an adequate shooter until I did some research after the trade, and the #11 being Sabonis tipped it over the edge for me. Yeah, I'm on record as pooh-poohing the original trade idea—not for value, but for fit. But Dipo's at least a better shooter than Robes, and I didn't realize that he's actually pretty solid as a spot-up guy in the corners.

It is still true that we have a big hole at the 4—all we've done is move the problem spot—but hopefully Sabonis develops to be that guy.

Yep. Same.

[wise1-2]

I honestly dont like the Ibaka trade, but I'm willing to give it time. I still feel Oladipo has top 20-25 player potential, but I feel so does Serge if he can regain form. I think Ibaka is like a top 2 or 3 PF in the east and a great fit on any team. I dont know. I'll just give it some time. I dont really care about Sabonis or Ilyasova though. Texas chuck makes a good point about keeping Oladipo and using the 11th pick for Teague or George Hill, but I believe in Elfrid and think he can be a similar level player in the very near future. Hell, Atlanta just traded Teague to start Schroder and I dont think he's much better than Payton. He was just in a much better situation, but I think Payton surpasses him eventually.

Its just hard for me to grade the Ibaka trade. I trust hennigan though. Time and time again he proved he knows way more than I do. Howard trade, Gordon pick, Oladipo pick, Harris trade, afflalo trade, jj trade, ect. Most of his moves were criticized initially but ended up being good moves.

[wise1-2]

I still find it comical that OKC posters continually laugh at how lopsided the trade was but before it happened, they turned down a hypothetical version of it on this board.

But I guess once ESPN says it's a rip off you just gotta go with the flow. Not hating, just don't like the wishy washy attitude. Own up to it if you thought it wasn't a good trade for you it's okay to stand out.

Anywho I didn't mind our offseason. Oladipo was tough to lose from an emotional standpoint but from a talent one, we will definitely survive. Fournier is similarly talented but a better fit for us. I think Vogel wanted this team to have an identity and he got it, with flexibility. Lots of guys on decent value deals, no real bad contracts unless a 1 year deal counts.

I disliked it because I didn't realize Oladipo was an adequate shooter until I did some research after the trade, and the #11 being Sabonis tipped it over the edge for me. Yeah, I'm on record as pooh-poohing the original trade idea—not for value, but for fit. But Dipo's at least a better shooter than Robes, and I didn't realize that he's actually pretty solid as a spot-up guy in the corners.

It is still true that we have a big hole at the 4—all we've done is move the problem spot—but hopefully Sabonis develops to be that guy.

What research was that? I'm not questioning you, I'm just curious because the inaccurate eye test tells me he's not a good catch and shoot player, and I dont really know where to find those stats. That is a big part of shooting/spacing and an important role for a SG, especially one that shares the court with another ball dominant guard.

[Andre Roberstan]

What research was that? I'm not questioning you, I'm just curious because the inaccurate eye test tells me he's not a good catch and shoot player, and I dont really know where to find those stats. That is a big part of shooting/spacing and an important role for a SG, especially one that shares the court with another ball dominant guard.

stats.nba.com, look up Vic. He shot 34% from the left corner and over 40% from the right, with 95% of those shots assisted. Low volume, but he's a good foul shooter, so I'd be shocked if he doesn't improve that.

BBRef probably has it too.

[Colbinii]

The misplaced faith in elfrid Payton is quite strange. If it came to breaking up that backcourt I'd have favored oladipo over Payton and done a trade for a shooter instead of pursuing Ibaka before his payday. The Ibaka trade, along with not upgrading pg and insisting on using Gordon at sf is likely to blow up soon with horrid spacing issues.

Ibaka is a good shooter when he gets time to lock and load alongside Durant and Westbrook but here he is likely to get a ton of contested looks and struggle as a mediocre shooter.

Vucevic can make mid range shots but cannot stretch his range to three, Payton and Gordon are hopeless even from midrange so sooner or later they're forced to start hezonja and hope he is ready while moving Gordon to the bench and praying Meeks is healthy.

I do love the Fournier signing, so there's that. This is overall a 38 win team.

Orlando won 35 games last year on a team that imploded and had no post defense. Add a top-6 coach and post defense and we gain 3 wins?

You are approaching how adding wins works. Did Orlando get better? Certainly.
But look who else got better.
Boston added a #3 pick and Al Horford, a better player than Ibaka, and they have a better coach already.
Milwaukee will have Parker all season, and him, Middleton, Giannis will all be better, while adding depth across the board.
The Knicks added Derrick Rose, Brandon Jennings, Courtney Lee, Joakim Noah; basically a ton of vets.
The Wizards will be a better team, and if Beal can stay healthy they will likely be a playoff team.
Chicago added Wade and Rondo. You can question the fit, but both of those players would arguable the best play on the Magic, definitely both in the top 3 for the Magic, and they still have Butler, Robin Lopez, and other solid role players.
Pacers are much improved, and I expect them to be the 2nd best team in the East.
The Hornets won 48 games last year and didn't lose anyone worth mentioning, while Kemba is entering his prime and if MKG is healthy that is an addition in itself, to a 48 win team.
The Hawks added Howard, a better player than Horford (though Magic fans will disagree, he is atleast a better fit next to Millsap). They will win around 45-50 games.
The Heat will be worse, but if Bosh can stay healthy they will be around a 40-45 win team again.
The Raptors didn't get worse, and it will be fun to see how Lowry/DD improve while on the Olympic team.
Then the Cavs, yeah.

Who are the better than without a doubt? 76ers and Nets without a doubt, but remember, they improved as well.
Who are they in the same boat as? Bucks, Wizards, Knicks, Heat.
Who are they worse than? Cavs, Bulls, Raptors, Hawks, Celtics, Hornets, Pacers, Pistons, Bulls.

Sure, an argument could be made that they are in the same tier as the Pistons, but the point stands that they aren't a top 5 team, and I don't even have them as a top 8 team. They will likely be fighting for the playoffs and they might make it if some team has an unfortunate injurt to a key piece.

[wise1-2]

What research was that? I'm not questioning you, I'm just curious because the inaccurate eye test tells me he's not a good catch and shoot player, and I dont really know where to find those stats. That is a big part of shooting/spacing and an important role for a SG, especially one that shares the court with another ball dominant guard.

stats.nba.com, look up Vic. He shot 34% from the left corner and over 40% from the right, with 95% of those shots assisted. Low volume, but he's a good foul shooter, so I'd be shocked if he doesn't improve that.

BBRef probably has it too.

Yeah I just found a couple of articles. 35.6% catch and shoot 3s. Not bad. I expected it to be lower and higher rate on pull up jumpers. That's not the case.

[wise1-2]

The misplaced faith in elfrid Payton is quite strange. If it came to breaking up that backcourt I'd have favored oladipo over Payton and done a trade for a shooter instead of pursuing Ibaka before his payday. The Ibaka trade, along with not upgrading pg and insisting on using Gordon at sf is likely to blow up soon with horrid spacing issues.

Ibaka is a good shooter when he gets time to lock and load alongside Durant and Westbrook but here he is likely to get a ton of contested looks and struggle as a mediocre shooter.

Vucevic can make mid range shots but cannot stretch his range to three, Payton and Gordon are hopeless even from midrange so sooner or later they're forced to start hezonja and hope he is ready while moving Gordon to the bench and praying Meeks is healthy.

I do love the Fournier signing, so there's that. This is overall a 38 win team.

Orlando won 35 games last year on a team that imploded and had no post defense. Add a top-6 coach and post defense and we gain 3 wins?

You are approaching how adding wins works. Did Orlando get better? Certainly.
But look who else got better.
Boston added a #3 pick and Al Horford, a better player than Ibaka, and they have a better coach already.
Milwaukee will have Parker all season, and him, Middleton, Giannis will all be better, while adding depth across the board.
The Knicks added Derrick Rose, Brandon Jennings, Courtney Lee, Joakim Noah; basically a ton of vets.
The Wizards will be a better team, and if Beal can stay healthy they will likely be a playoff team.
Chicago added Wade and Rondo. You can question the fit, but both of those players would arguable the best play on the Magic, definitely both in the top 3 for the Magic, and they still have Butler, Robin Lopez, and other solid role players.
Pacers are much improved, and I expect them to be the 2nd best team in the East.
The Hornets won 48 games last year and didn't lose anyone worth mentioning, while Kemba is entering his prime and if MKG is healthy that is an addition in itself, to a 48 win team.
The Hawks added Howard, a better player than Horford (though Magic fans will disagree, he is atleast a better fit next to Millsap). They will win around 45-50 games.
The Heat will be worse, but if Bosh can stay healthy they will be around a 40-45 win team again.
The Raptors didn't get worse, and it will be fun to see how Lowry/DD improve while on the Olympic team.
Then the Cavs, yeah.

Who are the better than without a doubt? 76ers and Nets without a doubt, but remember, they improved as well.
Who are they in the same boat as? Bucks, Wizards, Knicks, Heat.
Who are they worse than? Cavs, Bulls, Raptors, Hawks, Celtics, Hornets, Pacers, Pistons, Bulls.

Sure, an argument could be made that they are in the same tier as the Pistons, but the point stands that they aren't a top 5 team, and I don't even have them as a top 8 team. They will likely be fighting for the playoffs and they might make it if some team has an unfortunate injurt to a key piece.

The east is just so competitive. Most of these teams can end up anywhere between 35-45. I do think the Magic make the play offs though. I think the pacers will regress, not sure they make the play offs. Bad fits and lost their best defensive pieces (including Vogel). I dont like the Bulls either. Terrible fits and Rondo isn't that good. He wouldn't be top 3 on the Magic. ibaka, Vucevic, Fournier, Gordon will all be better than him IMO. Take the ball out of his hands (which will happen) and he's a liability. Expect Butler and Wade to miss around 15 games each and they dont have much depth. I think they're out of the play offs. Heat won't make it. Bosh is unlikely to play anyway. The Knicks added a lot of vets, but most of them aren't very good. Noah is good, but he's also replacing a good player in Lopez. Noah is an upgrade, but also unlikely to play 82 games like Lopez did. So I don't see them making the play offs. Bucks I don't think surpass the Magic or make the play offs. They were worse last year and didn't add as much talent as the Magic did. Delly is a solid player, but he's not enough IMO. Raptors will regress a little with the loss of biyombo and just them not getting any better when the rest of the east did. Still a top 4 team though. They just might win a couple of games less. I'm a fan of the hornets. I see them making the play offs. Pistons will as well. Agreed about the Hawks. The wizards are going to need a healthy Beal, but they're going to be pretty good too.

[Kings2013]

I like Vogel. Team still lacks that piece that can be high end. I like Gordon but he doesn't project as that

[Kizz Fastfists]

If they were going to overpay for a rim protector, Biyombo, they should have kept Oladipo. If they had traded #11 for Teague and Elf to Philly for any of their future picks they would have had a good off-season instead of a disaster.

[Andre Roberstan]

Bucks I don't think surpass the Magic or make the play offs. They were worse last year and didn't add as much talent as the Magic did.

MFW

Healthy Parker for a full season, another season of development from Giannis, the right fit at PG, having shooters are all things that make me think they're going to be solid.

[RexRyan]

Orlando constantly makes head scratching moves. Why Meeks? Why 17/year for Biyombo? Why trade away a good young asset (and a lottery pick) for one that's been fading, especially when you're nowhere near a championship? Why 4 years for DJ? Why one year, $15 million for Jeff Green, especially so early in free agency? Who exactly was Orlando bidding against for Biyombo, DJ, and Green?

This year they'll fail, then spend a couple of years undoing these moves, and start again. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. I give them a D.

[wise1-2]

Bucks I don't think surpass the Magic or make the play offs. They were worse last year and didn't add as much talent as the Magic did.

MFW

Healthy Parker for a full season, another season of development from Giannis, the right fit at PG, having shooters are all things that make me think they're going to be solid.

I think they'll be solid too, but not as good as the Magic. Still have some holes on that team, and yes they have yoing pieces but so do the Magic. AG, Mario, Payton and Fournier have room to grow with AG making a huge leap next year. Not sure why you're so surprised that I think the Magic will be better. They were better last year on both sides of the court and they upgraded the talent, coaching, experience, and fit. No one expect the Magic to be better this past season, and yet they were.

[jayjaysee]

Spoiler:

The misplaced faith in elfrid Payton is quite strange. If it came to breaking up that backcourt I'd have favored oladipo over Payton and done a trade for a shooter instead of pursuing Ibaka before his payday. The Ibaka trade, along with not upgrading pg and insisting on using Gordon at sf is likely to blow up soon with horrid spacing issues.

Ibaka is a good shooter when he gets time to lock and load alongside Durant and Westbrook but here he is likely to get a ton of contested looks and struggle as a mediocre shooter.

Vucevic can make mid range shots but cannot stretch his range to three, Payton and Gordon are hopeless even from midrange so sooner or later they're forced to start hezonja and hope he is ready while moving Gordon to the bench and praying Meeks is healthy.

I do love the Fournier signing, so there's that. This is overall a 38 win team.

Orlando won 35 games last year on a team that imploded and had no post defense. Add a top-6 coach and post defense and we gain 3 wins?

You are approaching how adding wins works. Did Orlando get better? Certainly.
But look who else got better.
Boston added a #3 pick and Al Horford, a better player than Ibaka, and they have a better coach already.
Milwaukee will have Parker all season, and him, Middleton, Giannis will all be better, while adding depth across the board.
The Knicks added Derrick Rose, Brandon Jennings, Courtney Lee, Joakim Noah; basically a ton of vets.
The Wizards will be a better team, and if Beal can stay healthy they will likely be a playoff team.
Chicago added Wade and Rondo. You can question the fit, but both of those players would arguable the best play on the Magic, definitely both in the top 3 for the Magic, and they still have Butler, Robin Lopez, and other solid role players.
Pacers are much improved, and I expect them to be the 2nd best team in the East.
The Hornets won 48 games last year and didn't lose anyone worth mentioning, while Kemba is entering his prime and if MKG is healthy that is an addition in itself, to a 48 win team.
The Hawks added Howard, a better player than Horford (though Magic fans will disagree, he is atleast a better fit next to Millsap). They will win around 45-50 games.
The Heat will be worse, but if Bosh can stay healthy they will be around a 40-45 win team again.
The Raptors didn't get worse, and it will be fun to see how Lowry/DD improve while on the Olympic team.
Then the Cavs, yeah.

Who are the better than without a doubt? 76ers and Nets without a doubt, but remember, they improved as well.
Who are they in the same boat as? Bucks, Wizards, Knicks, Heat.
Who are they worse than? Cavs, Bulls, Raptors, Hawks, Celtics, Hornets, Pacers, Pistons, Bulls.

Sure, an argument could be made that they are in the same tier as the Pistons, but the point stands that they aren't a top 5 team, and I don't even have them as a top 8 team. They will likely be fighting for the playoffs and they might make it if some team has an unfortunate injurt to a key piece.

Agree with this post completely. But a little less neutral/optimistic

I don't understand how Orlando can be viewed as a playoff team.

I think Cavs, Raptors, Celtics, Pacers, Pistons, Bucks, Atlanta, Bulls are just above the other teams

I have Orlando with Charlotte, NY, Miami and Washington as those teams hoping on of the better teams slips up.

NY/Washington have huge questions with Rose/Beal. Charlotte imo is going to feel the loss of Al, Lee, Lin which will drop them down to this group of teams.. And Miami, Bosh's questions drop them to this group.

I think those four teams are above Orlando if their "if's" go through, but Orlando could say the same. I just feel safer betting on Wall and Melo.

And hoping Gordon goes even with Parker, just not fair to AG.

considering back up centres are getting paid 15 mill/yr.

Monroe, Biyombo, and Ian?

[wise1-2]

Orlando constantly makes head scratching moves. Why Meeks? Why 17/year for Biyombo? Why trade away a good young asset (and a lottery pick) for one that's been fading, especially when you're nowhere near a championship? Why 4 years for DJ? Why one year, $15 million for Jeff Green, especially so early in free agency? Who exactly was Orlando bidding against for Biyombo, DJ, and Green?

This year they'll fail, then spend a couple of years undoing these moves, and start again. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. I give them a D.

To be fair all those head scratching moves usually work out well for them. Meeks is not worth mentioning. Biyombo's contract isn't that bad considering back up centres are getting paid 15 mill/yr. They need that burst of energy (wake up a dead arena), defense and toughness from him. Definitely a better investment for them than Tobias. DJ's contract isn't bad. He fills a need. Jeff green was a one year deal. Overpaid, but justified and unlikely to negatively affect them.

[RexRyan]

To be fair all those head scratching moves usually work out well for them.

Huh?

Four straight years in last place in the Southeast Division...... and their moves have been working well? I guess we all have our own views on what 'well' means. Good Luck!