Orlando early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Smitty731/HowardMass)

[Magic_Johnny12]

I still find it comical that OKC posters continually laugh at how lopsided the trade was but before it happened, they turned down a hypothetical version of it on this board.

But I guess once ESPN says it's a rip off you just gotta go with the flow. Not hating, just don't like the wishy washy attitude. Own up to it if you thought it wasn't a good trade for you it's okay to stand out.

Anywho I didn't mind our offseason. Oladipo was tough to lose from an emotional standpoint but from a talent one, we will definitely survive. Fournier is similarly talented but a better fit for us. I think Vogel wanted this team to have an identity and he got it, with flexibility. Lots of guys on decent value deals, no real bad contracts unless a 1 year deal counts.

It's fandom. Any player traded away suddenly isn't as good, and vice versa. Happens with all fan bases, it's just more prominent in this thread because you have two OKC posters as judges and they made a fairly significant trade with the Magic.

Couldn't have said it any better!

[Colbinii]

debatable. Vogel has playoff success, havent seen that from Stevens yet. Stevens is a good coach and will do better with the better talent he has. But right now, Vogel is better.

He has had better teams than Boston has had, and a better player (Paul George).

Horford better than Ibaka? if so it isnt by much. Horfords defense is overrated, is not a shot blocker and only recently developed a 3pt shot.

All impact stats say he is. He has much more complete offensive game and Horford is a better man defender (a lot better actually).

think they will miss Jefferson more than you think, both on the court and in the lockerroom. Lin was a great backup PG for them too..

Al Jefferson started 18 games, played in 45, and played just a shade over 1000 minutes last year. He won't be missed. Lin? No team has missed him.

disagree here, i believe the Heat have a big dropoff.

Not if Bosh is healthy, like I said. He was taking the Raptors to the playoffs in the late 2000's with a worse supporting cast and worse coach.

[tiderulz]

debatable. Vogel has playoff success, havent seen that from Stevens yet. Stevens is a good coach and will do better with the better talent he has. But right now, Vogel is better.

He has had better teams than Boston has had, and a better player (Paul George).

Horford better than Ibaka? if so it isnt by much. Horfords defense is overrated, is not a shot blocker and only recently developed a 3pt shot.

All impact stats say he is. He has much more complete offensive game and Horford is a better man defender (a lot better actually).

think they will miss Jefferson more than you think, both on the court and in the lockerroom. Lin was a great backup PG for them too..

Al Jefferson started 18 games, played in 45, and played just a shade over 1000 minutes last year. He won't be missed. Lin? No team has missed him.

disagree here, i believe the Heat have a big dropoff.

Not if Bosh is healthy, like I said. He was taking the Raptors to the playoffs in the late 2000's with a worse supporting cast and worse coach.

ask Charlotte fans what they think about Jefferson having zero impact being gone. I believe they know more than you about their team and they have stated that he will be a loss.

Bosh of 9 years ago isnt the Bosh now. They dont make the playoffs. Nice thing, we only have to wait a little while to see who is right.

[tiderulz]

I still find it comical that OKC posters continually laugh at how lopsided the trade was but before it happened, they turned down a hypothetical version of it on this board.

But I guess once ESPN says it's a rip off you just gotta go with the flow. Not hating, just don't like the wishy washy attitude. Own up to it if you thought it wasn't a good trade for you it's okay to stand out.

Anywho I didn't mind our offseason. Oladipo was tough to lose from an emotional standpoint but from a talent one, we will definitely survive. Fournier is similarly talented but a better fit for us. I think Vogel wanted this team to have an identity and he got it, with flexibility. Lots of guys on decent value deals, no real bad contracts unless a 1 year deal counts.

It's fandom. Any player traded away suddenly isn't as good, and vice versa. Happens with all fan bases, it's just more prominent in this thread because you have two OKC posters as judges and they made a fairly significant trade with the Magic.

I think Magic fans shouldn't be too quick to throw stones. We could go back and dig up posts on how awesome Dipo was and now most Magic fans spend time telling us about all his weaknesses and desire for a max contract(guess what Ibaka is going to want?).

Nothing is served by playing that game. Everyone loses. Well not everyone. I win because I can laugh at everyone. And I can do so freely because the Mavs are mediocre and we have literally no assets to hype up.

i dont believe the Magic fans were the first to throw stones. will be interesting to see how the above people rate OKC's off season

[HartfordWhalers]

will be interesting to see how the above people rate OKC's off season

I cannot wait to see pretty much everyone's rating of OKC's offseason. I order a new fire retardant pair of suspenders just for that day.

Orlando, Sac, and Okc are the three that I expect the most animated discussion on. Maybe Chicago?

[Texas Chuck]

i dont believe the Magic fans were the first to throw stones. will be interesting to see how the above people rate OKC's off season

There is the option of no one throwing stones. Tho if people insist on it, Hartford and I will throw asteroids back. Almost nobody is immune to overrating players that wear their teams uniform and once that jersey is off, its amazing how much clearer people can see.

But I understand many folks on the trade board want to be fans first and objective asset evaluators 2nd. That's a perfectly fine approach to enjoying basketball, tho not one ideally suited to this board.

[Slava]

I actually loved OKC off season. I'm also a card carrying member of Sam presti fan club but he did everything right short of implanting a spine into Durant's back. That is a discussion for a different thread and day.

[orlando_joe]

I still find it comical that OKC posters continually laugh at how lopsided the trade was but before it happened, they turned down a hypothetical version of it on this board.

But I guess once ESPN says it's a rip off you just gotta go with the flow. Not hating, just don't like the wishy washy attitude. Own up to it if you thought it wasn't a good trade for you it's okay to stand out.

Anywho I didn't mind our offseason. Oladipo was tough to lose from an emotional standpoint but from a talent one, we will definitely survive. Fournier is similarly talented but a better fit for us. I think Vogel wanted this team to have an identity and he got it, with flexibility. Lots of guys on decent value deals, no real bad contracts unless a 1 year deal counts.

It's fandom. Any player traded away suddenly isn't as good, and vice versa. Happens with all fan bases, it's just more prominent in this thread because you have two OKC posters as judges and they made a fairly significant trade with the Magic.

I think Magic fans shouldn't be too quick to throw stones. We could go back and dig up posts on how awesome Dipo was and now most Magic fans spend time telling us about all his weaknesses and desire for a max contract(guess what Ibaka is going to want?).

Nothing is served by playing that game. Everyone loses. Well not everyone. I win because I can laugh at everyone. And I can do so freely because the Mavs are mediocre and we have literally no assets to hype up.

oh it was okc fans threw first stones... .there is no doubt

[bondom34]

Ah the persecution complex is here. Could it be a trade was disliked because teams giving away lotto picks for no reason isn't a great management practice? Nah, they just are haters. Can you do research after the fact and learn? Nah, haters. Can you say a trade isn't ideal for fit but fine on value? Nah, haters. Really its old.

Oh, and yes VO is better than Waiters. We can show those posts again.

[orlando_joe]

Ah the persecution complex is here. Could it be a trade was disliked because teams giving away lotto picks for no reason isn't a great management practice? Nah, they just are haters. Can you do research after the fact and learn? Nah, haters. Can you say a trade isn't ideal for fit but fine on value? Nah, haters. Really its old.

Oh, and yes VO is better than Waiters. We can show those posts again.

sure give away a 11th pick in draft that teams tried to give away 8 of top ten picks? 25 of the first rd picks? at time of draft most ever teams trying hard to get out of?... you can put lottery pick on it to make it sound great to you but come on man...I mean really?the guy you got at 11...could hasve went 25th if okc did not want him...lol

[NinjaSheppard]

D-

The only thing keeping it from an F is the Vogel hiring and I guess saving some money on Don't Google. Outside of that this was a complete trainwreck.

I think the best way to describe their offseason is if the AI in MyGM mode on NBA 2K had a ton of cap space.

[bondom34]

Ah the persecution complex is here. Could it be a trade was disliked because teams giving away lotto picks for no reason isn't a great management practice? Nah, they just are haters. Can you do research after the fact and learn? Nah, haters. Can you say a trade isn't ideal for fit but fine on value? Nah, haters. Really its old.

Oh, and yes VO is better than Waiters. We can show those posts again.

sure give away a 11th pick in draft that teams tried to give away 8 of top ten picks? 25 of the first rd picks? at time of draft most ever teams trying hard to get out of?... you can put lottery pick on it to make it sound great to you but come on man...I mean really?the guy you got at 11...could hasve went 25th if okc did not want him...lol

I hope you're joking. Because no one was giving away picks, except well Orlando. And the idea you can get a player at 25 you can at 11 is equally ludicrous. I get standing up for your team but this is laughable.

[j-ragg]

Ah the persecution complex is here. Could it be a trade was disliked because teams giving away lotto picks for no reason isn't a great management practice? Nah, they just are haters. Can you do research after the fact and learn? Nah, haters.

Doesn't mean you're a hater or anything. But at the same time, I can't imagine two frequent posters (doesn't really matter if you're a mod or not IMO) of a basketball board that is super active about player's trade value, just didn't realize Oladipo is as good as he is before the trade was announced so they could do a 180 and actually love the trade after the media started bashing it.

I get all the reasons people hate on it. Declining numbers, pending free agency, lotto pick, Ilyasova is somehow an asset. I get it, not arguing that. Just don't buy the excuse. Still enjoy your posts outside of this trade. Just thought some of you might own up to it and say you actually didn't like the trade because that was the case before when it was a hypothetical. When you say stuff like "giving away lotto picks" it's just hard to take seriously when just a few short months ago you guys dismissed it even with the pick.

[bondom34]

Ah the persecution complex is here. Could it be a trade was disliked because teams giving away lotto picks for no reason isn't a great management practice? Nah, they just are haters. Can you do research after the fact and learn? Nah, haters.

Doesn't mean you're a hater or anything. But at the same time, I can't imagine two frequent posters (doesn't really matter if you're a mod or not IMO) of a basketball board that is super active about player's trade value, just didn't realize Oladipo is as good as he is before the trade was announced so they could do a 180 and actually love the trade after the media started bashing it.

I get all the reasons people hate on it. Declining numbers, pending free agency, lotto pick, Ilyasova is somehow an asset. I get it, not arguing that. Just don't buy the excuse. Still enjoy your posts outside of this trade. Just thought some of you might own up to it and say you actually didn't like the trade because that was the case before when it was a hypothetical. When you say stuff like "giving away lotto picks" it's just hard to take seriously when just a few short months ago you guys dismissed it even with the pick.

Honestly, the value wasn't the value. It was fit that was why everyone said no originally. And Ilyasova's not an asset, but the rest of the trade is just lopsided. It was dismissed because we didn't love the fit, and still are short at PF. BUt you know what? OKC got younger, better at SG, and got a future PF with the pick who may play this year.

[orlando_joe]

D-

The only thing keeping it from an F is the Vogel hiring and I guess saving some money on Don't Google. Outside of that this was a complete trainwreck.

I think the best way to describe their offseason is if the AI in MyGM mode on NBA 2K had a ton of cap space.

wow...tell us how yo really feel...lol...so a guess not a big magic fan...and a really smart guy

[wise1-2]

Oh, Serge can space the floor but neither can dribble or pass to save their lives, and both have bad hands. Its not the spacing that's the issue, but the offense will be really bogged down.

I disagree. Ibaka is capable of playing in a pick n roll and pick n pop. Derrick favors and gobert form one of the best front courts in the league. You really think Ibaka and Biyombo so much worse that they're nearly unplayable?

Yes. Gobert is much better than Biz, and Favors better than Ibaka. Of the 4, Ibaka and Biz are worst in OBPM and have much worse passing numbers. Ibaka was in the 40th percentile in PnR, and that was with Westbrook at PG. He now has Payton.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/roll-man/?CF=TeamNameAbbreviation*E*okc&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

http://bkref.com/tiny/sU45t

Ibaka executed a ton of pick n rolls making him the 9th best scorer in the NBA as a roll man. He also provides better spacing than Favors. None of them can dribble and pass. There's really not that much of a difference where one makes up a great duo and the other is "nearly unplayable". I don't buy that at all, and neither does Vogel, but we'll see.

[bondom34]

I disagree. Ibaka is capable of playing in a pick n roll and pick n pop. Derrick favors and gobert form one of the best front courts in the league. You really think Ibaka and Biyombo so much worse that they're nearly unplayable?

Yes. Gobert is much better than Biz, and Favors better than Ibaka. Of the 4, Ibaka and Biz are worst in OBPM and have much worse passing numbers. Ibaka was in the 40th percentile in PnR, and that was with Westbrook at PG. He now has Payton.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/roll-man/?CF=TeamNameAbbreviation*E*okc&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

http://bkref.com/tiny/sU45t

Ibaka executed a ton of pick n rolls making him the 9th best scorer in the NBA as a roll man. He also provides better spacing than Favors. None of them can dribble and pass. There's really not that much of a difference where one makes up a great duo and the other is "nearly unplayable". I don't buy that at all, and neither does Vogel, but we'll see.

I mean, we don't really know what Vogel thinks until he plays them. And I just showed Ibaka being inefficient in PnR. And Zach Lowe would agree.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/17145557/the-orlando-magic-fighting-become-viable-again

That shaky playmaking imperils the Ibaka-Biyombo combo, about which the Magic are giddy. That duo will menace teams on defense. But swapping out Vucevic cramps Orlando's spacing, and both Ibaka and Biyombo were among just 16 rotation players last season who averaged one or fewer assists per 36 minutes.

It is hard to run a functional NBA offense with two non-passers, regardless of what position they play. Over the last nine seasons, no pair who dished so few dimes logged even 1,000 minutes together, per ESPN Stats & Information.

But again, they're free to try it, just don't expect it to work offensively at all.

[wise1-2]

Ah the persecution complex is here. Could it be a trade was disliked because teams giving away lotto picks for no reason isn't a great management practice? Nah, they just are haters. Can you do research after the fact and learn? Nah, haters. Can you say a trade isn't ideal for fit but fine on value? Nah, haters. Really its old.

Oh, and yes VO is better than Waiters. We can show those posts again.

sure give away a 11th pick in draft that teams tried to give away 8 of top ten picks? 25 of the first rd picks? at time of draft most ever teams trying hard to get out of?... you can put lottery pick on it to make it sound great to you but come on man...I mean really?the guy you got at 11...could hasve went 25th if okc did not want him...lol

I hope you're joking. Because no one was giving away picks, except well Orlando. And the idea you can get a player at 25 you can at 11 is equally ludicrous. I get standing up for your team but this is laughable.

Skal and Deyonta Davis were projected to go in the lottery and dropped to 28 and 31.

[orlando_joe]

Ah the persecution complex is here. Could it be a trade was disliked because teams giving away lotto picks for no reason isn't a great management practice? Nah, they just are haters. Can you do research after the fact and learn? Nah, haters. Can you say a trade isn't ideal for fit but fine on value? Nah, haters. Really its old.

Oh, and yes VO is better than Waiters. We can show those posts again.

sure give away a 11th pick in draft that teams tried to give away 8 of top ten picks? 25 of the first rd picks? at time of draft most ever teams trying hard to get out of?... you can put lottery pick on it to make it sound great to you but come on man...I mean really?the guy you got at 11...could hasve went 25th if okc did not want him...lol

I hope you're joking. Because no one was giving away picks, except well Orlando. And the idea you can get a player at 25 you can at 11 is equally ludicrous. I get standing up for your team but this is laughable.

by giving away..i meant trade away so lower value at 11th then most yrs..i thought you could figure that out ..way to spin...to say your guy could not drop to 25th in this draft..or 20th? ...ok...as long as your sure I am just not bright..

[bondom34]

sure give away a 11th pick in draft that teams tried to give away 8 of top ten picks? 25 of the first rd picks? at time of draft most ever teams trying hard to get out of?... you can put lottery pick on it to make it sound great to you but come on man...I mean really?the guy you got at 11...could hasve went 25th if okc did not want him...lol

I hope you're joking. Because no one was giving away picks, except well Orlando. And the idea you can get a player at 25 you can at 11 is equally ludicrous. I get standing up for your team but this is laughable.

Skal and Deyonta Davis were projected to go in the lottery and dropped to 28 and 31.

Skal had a ton of red flags and I don't know where Davis was projected in the lottery. And Orlando got neither of the 2.