Orlando early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Smitty731/HowardMass)

[bondom34]

sure give away a 11th pick in draft that teams tried to give away 8 of top ten picks? 25 of the first rd picks? at time of draft most ever teams trying hard to get out of?... you can put lottery pick on it to make it sound great to you but come on man...I mean really?the guy you got at 11...could hasve went 25th if okc did not want him...lol

I hope you're joking. Because no one was giving away picks, except well Orlando. And the idea you can get a player at 25 you can at 11 is equally ludicrous. I get standing up for your team but this is laughable.

by giving away..i meant trade away so lower value at 11th then most yrs..i thought you could figure that out ..way to spin...to say your guy could not drop to 25th in this draft..or 20th? ...ok...as long as your sure I am just not bright..

Considering nobody had Sabonis close to that low, no. And considering Orlando got no pick in return, yeah they lost value. I mean, when a trade is universally panned, I don't know how you can objectively say that it was good.

[wise1-2]

Yes. Gobert is much better than Biz, and Favors better than Ibaka. Of the 4, Ibaka and Biz are worst in OBPM and have much worse passing numbers. Ibaka was in the 40th percentile in PnR, and that was with Westbrook at PG. He now has Payton.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/roll-man/?CF=TeamNameAbbreviation*E*okc&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

http://bkref.com/tiny/sU45t

Ibaka executed a ton of pick n rolls making him the 9th best scorer in the NBA as a roll man. He also provides better spacing than Favors. None of them can dribble and pass. There's really not that much of a difference where one makes up a great duo and the other is "nearly unplayable". I don't buy that at all, and neither does Vogel, but we'll see.

I mean, we don't really know what Vogel thinks until he plays them. And I just showed Ibaka being inefficient in PnR. And Zach Lowe would agree.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/17145557/the-orlando-magic-fighting-become-viable-again

That shaky playmaking imperils the Ibaka-Biyombo combo, about which the Magic are giddy. That duo will menace teams on defense. But swapping out Vucevic cramps Orlando's spacing, and both Ibaka and Biyombo were among just 16 rotation players last season who averaged one or fewer assists per 36 minutes.

It is hard to run a functional NBA offense with two non-passers, regardless of what position they play. Over the last nine seasons, no pair who dished so few dimes logged even 1,000 minutes together, per ESPN Stats & Information.

But again, they're free to try it, just don't expect it to work offensively at all.

With the defense they provide, I dont think they'll be unplayable. That's fine if you think otherwise. We'll wait and see what happens, but I expect dominant defenses to keep them in games.

[yosemiteben]

Al Jefferson started 18 games, played in 45, and played just a shade over 1000 minutes last year. He won't be missed.

ask Charlotte fans what they think about Jefferson having zero impact being gone. I believe they know more than you about their team and they have stated that he will be a loss.

It is a very small minority opinion among Charlotte fans that Al Jefferson will be missed, outside of his being a good locker room presence among a lot of high character, good locker room guys.

I expect IND fans to be mildly disappointed with Big Al. He has had constant injury issues the last two seasons.

[Statlanta]

Orlando constantly makes head scratching moves. Why Meeks? Why 17/year for Biyombo? Why trade away a good young asset (and a lottery pick) for one that's been fadg, especially when you're nowhere near a championship? Why 4 years for DJ? Why one year, $15 million for Jeff Green, especially so early in free agency? Who exactly was Orlando bidding against for Biyombo, DJ, and Green?

This year they'll fail, then spend a couple of years undoing these moves, and start again. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. I give them a D.

To reply as confidently on these moves as I can.
We got Meeks to relieve the Mario of back up SG minutes if he couldn't handle it. If Meeks is healthy we got a shooter if he isn't we can throw Mario to the same role as last year.
On Biyombo we are giving him Mozgov money and considering how he was hyped during the playoffs I believe this is a bargain.
On D.J. we basically wanted a steady backup PG and C.J. didn't cut it under Skiles(might thrive under Vogel).
On Jeff Green we get a SF who is around Harrison Barnes level while not paying max money. We also get cap space once he is off his deal to use when the real stars are out for free agency and considering our free agency history(T-Mac, Grant Hill, Rashard) we can put ourselves in a position to be a welcoming market.
On Serge we made the spacing even more bearable for our backcourt and even if he bolts it will just contribute to the cap space in a star studded market. Again Serge is on a contract year so he will be giving max effort to get paid.

Personally myself I rather have Victor than Elfrid but I believe we can win with either since it was clear having both only hampered the games of both due to the spacing. I also too believe giving Sabonis was the thing that made it an over pay but it still makes our roster a better fit than before.

[bondom34]

Ibaka executed a ton of pick n rolls making him the 9th best scorer in the NBA as a roll man. He also provides better spacing than Favors. None of them can dribble and pass. There's really not that much of a difference where one makes up a great duo and the other is "nearly unplayable". I don't buy that at all, and neither does Vogel, but we'll see.

I mean, we don't really know what Vogel thinks until he plays them. And I just showed Ibaka being inefficient in PnR. And Zach Lowe would agree.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/17145557/the-orlando-magic-fighting-become-viable-again

That shaky playmaking imperils the Ibaka-Biyombo combo, about which the Magic are giddy. That duo will menace teams on defense. But swapping out Vucevic cramps Orlando's spacing, and both Ibaka and Biyombo were among just 16 rotation players last season who averaged one or fewer assists per 36 minutes.

It is hard to run a functional NBA offense with two non-passers, regardless of what position they play. Over the last nine seasons, no pair who dished so few dimes logged even 1,000 minutes together, per ESPN Stats & Information.

But again, they're free to try it, just don't expect it to work offensively at all.

With the defense they provide, I dont think they'll be unplayable. That's fine if you think otherwise. We'll wait and see what happens, but I expect dominant defenses to keep them in games.

If you go to what I said in the first place...

That duo will have really huge massive offensive issues. Nearly unplayable offensively together.

You'll see that's what I said. Never said the defense would be an issue.

[wise1-2]

I hope you're joking. Because no one was giving away picks, except well Orlando. And the idea you can get a player at 25 you can at 11 is equally ludicrous. I get standing up for your team but this is laughable.

Skal and Deyonta Davis were projected to go in the lottery and dropped to 28 and 31.

Skal had a ton of red flags and I don't know where Davis was projected in the lottery. And Orlando got neither of the 2.

They don't need anothwr future back up and they don't care that they gave awqy Sabonis. He will most likely be a player you can easily replace in FA. I'm glad hennigan looks at the big picture, and isn't sweating the minor assets. At the end of the day it was an 11th pick in a weak draft.

[bondom34]

Skal and Deyonta Davis were projected to go in the lottery and dropped to 28 and 31.

Skal had a ton of red flags and I don't know where Davis was projected in the lottery. And Orlando got neither of the 2.

They don't need anothwr future back up and they don't care that they gave awqy Sabonis. He will most likely be a player you can easily replace in FA. I'm glad hennigan looks at the big picture, and isn't sweating the minor assets. At the end of the day it was an 11th pick in a weak draft.

In that case, they probably should have done that in free agency instead of using the money on Green and an injured Meeks. But sure, 20ish year olds with potential are everywhere in free agency.

The 11th pick isn't a minor asset.

[RexRyan]

Orlando constantly makes head scratching moves. Why Meeks? Why 17/year for Biyombo? Why trade away a good young asset (and a lottery pick) for one that's been fadg, especially when you're nowhere near a championship? Why 4 years for DJ? Why one year, $15 million for Jeff Green, especially so early in free agency? Who exactly was Orlando bidding against for Biyombo, DJ, and Green?

This year they'll fail, then spend a couple of years undoing these moves, and start again. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. I give them a D.

To reply as confidently on these moves as I can.
We got Meeks to relieve the Mario of back up SG minutes if he couldn't handle it. If Meeks is healthy we got a shooter if he isn't we can throw Mario to the same role as last year.
On Biyombo we are giving him Mozgov money and considering how he was hyped during the playoffs I believe this is a bargain.
On D.J. we basically wanted a steady backup PG and C.J. didn't cut it under Skiles(might thrive under Vogel).
On Jeff Green we get a SF who is around Harrison Barnes level while not paying max money. We also get cap space once he is off his deal to use when the real stars are out for free agency and considering our free agency history(T-Mac, Grant Hill, Rashard) we can put ourselves in a position to be a welcoming market.
On Serge we made the spacing even more bearable for our backcourt and even if he bolts it will just contribute to the cap space in a star studded market. Again Serge is on a contract year so he will be giving max effort to get paid.

Personally myself I rather have Victor than Elfrid but I believe we can win with either since it was clear having both only hampered the games of both due to the spacing. I also too believe giving Sabonis was the thing that made it an over pay but it still makes our roster a better fit than before.

Thanks for the reply - for your sake, as well as Orlando fans, I hope you're right, and that you get off the fifth place treadmill. And from watching a crap Detroit team under Dumars for five years, it can be frustrating. Hope springs eternal for everyone in the summer! Good luck!

[wise1-2]

I mean, we don't really know what Vogel thinks until he plays them. And I just showed Ibaka being inefficient in PnR. And Zach Lowe would agree.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/17145557/the-orlando-magic-fighting-become-viable-again



But again, they're free to try it, just don't expect it to work offensively at all.

With the defense they provide, I dont think they'll be unplayable. That's fine if you think otherwise. We'll wait and see what happens, but I expect dominant defenses to keep them in games.

If you go to what I said in the first place...

That duo will have really huge massive offensive issues. Nearly unplayable offensively together.

You'll see that's what I said. Never said the defense would be an issue.

My bad. I read that as unplayable, period. Yeah I don't expect much offensively, but if they can produce on the other end like they're capable of, I think they can be a nice duo.

[Statlanta]

D-

The only thing keeping it from an F is the Vogel hiring and I guess saving some money on Don't Google. Outside of that this was a complete trainwreck.

I think the best way to describe their offseason is if the AI in MyGM mode on NBA 2K had a ton of cap space.

I have to disagree here.
I personally think they did what they could for a non-playoff team without a stud like Anthony Davis or Karl-Anthony Towns. I think this is the best fitting roster in years and believe it is better than a D-. Are they rushing into playoff mode without a guaranteed stud on the roster? Did they trade some of the future and flexibility away? Did we only get stop gap players/vets in order to fill the cap void? One could answer yes or no to any of these questions. I'm am truly glad that they didn't stay put with the roster as Vogel alone won't get us to the playoffs with the talent movements in the East.

[wise1-2]

Skal had a ton of red flags and I don't know where Davis was projected in the lottery. And Orlando got neither of the 2.

They don't need anothwr future back up and they don't care that they gave awqy Sabonis. He will most likely be a player you can easily replace in FA. I'm glad hennigan looks at the big picture, and isn't sweating the minor assets. At the end of the day it was an 11th pick in a weak draft.

In that case, they probably should have done that in free agency instead of using the money on Green and an injured Meeks. But sure, 20ish year olds with potential are everywhere in free agency.

The 11th pick isn't a minor asset.

Why would they need another back up big man? They didn't want to lock up a lot of long term money in FA so that they can have future cap flexibility. That is why they have Green and Meeks. I'm glad they did because again it shows hennigan is looking at the big picture. He's hoping to land a big time FA next year.

Just curious, what do you think is Sabonis' floor and ceiling? I'm seeing a 3rd big type of player, maybe decent starter, but nothing worth losing sleep over. For the Magic, I dont think its worth it to go through the development process. They could just pick up that type of player in FA when they need to.

[bondom34]

They don't need anothwr future back up and they don't care that they gave awqy Sabonis. He will most likely be a player you can easily replace in FA. I'm glad hennigan looks at the big picture, and isn't sweating the minor assets. At the end of the day it was an 11th pick in a weak draft.

In that case, they probably should have done that in free agency instead of using the money on Green and an injured Meeks. But sure, 20ish year olds with potential are everywhere in free agency.

The 11th pick isn't a minor asset.

Why would they need another back up big man? They didn't want to lock up a lot of long term money in FA so that they can have future cap flexibility. That is why they have Green and Meeks. I'm glad they did because again it shows hennigan is looking at the big picture.

Just curious, what do you think is Sabonis' floor and ceiling? I'm seeing a 3rd big type of player, maybe decent starter, but nothing worth losing sleep over. For the Magic, I dont think its worth it to go through the development process. They could just pick up that type of player in FA when they need to.

They didn't have to pick Sabonis, pick whoever you'd like. Just don't give up the pick.

And I think he's a solid rotation big at least. Presti's draft record is good, and he sees him as probably starter by end of season over Ilyasova. So that's a floor, I think he's a Nick Collison type career, never a star but a solid starter for a while.

[Smitty731]

I'm going to say this once:

If we have to lock an Offseason Review thread because people can't be reasonable and not attack each other, we all look like a collective bunch of idiots.

Attack the post and not the poster. No one hates your team.

And yes there is a lot of backpedaling on all sides here. I'm far too lazy to pull up a bunch of old posts but just as many Orlando and OKC fans were against a deal like what ultimately went down back in the spring, when variations were being proposed. So, how about you all stop and move on?

[wise1-2]

In that case, they probably should have done that in free agency instead of using the money on Green and an injured Meeks. But sure, 20ish year olds with potential are everywhere in free agency.

The 11th pick isn't a minor asset.

Why would they need another back up big man? They didn't want to lock up a lot of long term money in FA so that they can have future cap flexibility. That is why they have Green and Meeks. I'm glad they did because again it shows hennigan is looking at the big picture.

Just curious, what do you think is Sabonis' floor and ceiling? I'm seeing a 3rd big type of player, maybe decent starter, but nothing worth losing sleep over. For the Magic, I dont think its worth it to go through the development process. They could just pick up that type of player in FA when they need to.

They didn't have to pick Sabonis, pick whoever you'd like. Just don't give up the pick.

And I think he's a solid rotation big at least. Presti's draft record is good, and he sees him as probably starter by end of season over Ilyasova. So that's a floor, I think he's a Nick Collison type career, never a star but a solid starter for a while.

Anyone they would've picked would most likely be on that same level or worse, so again I dont think its anything to sweat over. A nick collison level player is easily obtainable in FA when/if needed, and again you don't have to wait for him to develop. He was the trade sweetner, its not like the magic gave him away for nothing. I just really don't think its a big deal that they had to sacrifice the 11th pick in a big move that makes them significantly better than last year. Ibaka is a better player and fit than last seasons' oladipo.

[bondom34]

Why would they need another back up big man? They didn't want to lock up a lot of long term money in FA so that they can have future cap flexibility. That is why they have Green and Meeks. I'm glad they did because again it shows hennigan is looking at the big picture.

Just curious, what do you think is Sabonis' floor and ceiling? I'm seeing a 3rd big type of player, maybe decent starter, but nothing worth losing sleep over. For the Magic, I dont think its worth it to go through the development process. They could just pick up that type of player in FA when they need to.

They didn't have to pick Sabonis, pick whoever you'd like. Just don't give up the pick.

And I think he's a solid rotation big at least. Presti's draft record is good, and he sees him as probably starter by end of season over Ilyasova. So that's a floor, I think he's a Nick Collison type career, never a star but a solid starter for a while.

Anyone they would've picked would most likely be on that same level or worse, so again I dont think its anything to sweat over. A nick collison level player is easily obtainable in FA when/if needed, and again you don't have to wait for him to develop. He was the trade sweetner, its not like the magic gave him away for nothing. I just really don't think its a big deal that they had to sacrifice the 11th pick in a big move that makes them significantly better than last year. Ibaka is a better player and fit than last seasons' oladipo.

I mean, yeah, its a pretty big part of the trade. And Ibaka wasn't better than VO last year either.

[Smitty731]

Also, I want to add that anyone calling a lottery pick, even one that is late, a "minor" asset is just making an idiotic argument. Even the most stacked, deep team would love to keep bringing in lottery picks.

[orlando_joe]

at time of draft I had milw taking ellenson at 10 thought that would be his floor...when they passed fell all the way to 18th...in that draft after pick 2 up for grabs..most said was pretty even pick 8-25..this draft was not like most..dont think okc makes trade serge for victor straight up...and magic clearly new or had real good idea what would take to keep Fournier ...at 4 yrs 65..plus a player option on yr 5..not sure what victor could have got from other team in trade...what do you think he could bring in contract yr? knowing like magic did what it will take to keep him...happy 4 yrs 106 mill...or 135 for 5 next summer..and if they chose vic over evan and let evan walk for nothing? or get to sign evan and biz for almost what victor wants...hmmm

[NinjaSheppard]

I am not sure why Orlando fans are so offended by people hating their offseason.

Jeff Green is a horrible basketball player. He is so bad that the Clippers had his bird rights and didn''t want to offer him a one year deal despite having no alternatives. Giving him 15 million isn't a good move.

The Ibaka trade has universally been viewed as a negative for Orlando and if they want to keep him they are going to have to give him 30 mil a year for at least 4 years.

DJ Augustin is whatever. Biyombo is fine but he plays the same position as their best player and the two guys can't play together. Gordon is the team's most intriguing prospect except he is clearly best at the 4 and he will play out of position. You can play him at the 4 and Ibaka at the 5 but again you are spending 30 mil a year on two centers that aren't playing in that case.

The team is likely going to defend well enough that they aren't going to be capable of getting a high lottery pick while not good enough to make the playoffs. This is the worst place to possibly be in. They traded Harris for capspace and used it on nothing.

I don't see how anyone can pretend their offseason is anywhere near a B+. Bondom's C- was probably generous.

[Statlanta]

Thanks for the reply - for your sake, as well as Orlando fans, I hope you're right, and that you get off the fifth place treadmill. And from watching a crap Detroit team under Dumars for five years, it can be frustrating. Hope springs eternal for everyone in the summer! Good luck!

Good luck to you too. We hope to have a prospect as intriguing as Andre Drummond and hope that Aaron Gordon can be that for us. I can't speak for other Magic fans but it has been a trying 4 years of rebuilding since Dwight left. We rebuilded about the same time as Philly and our prospects aren't anywhere near generational with the only high touted prospect we were early on was snagged up by Phil Jackson(Porzingis). Now we're put in the position to try hard to compete since our owner is old and we've already been bad for half a decade already. Here's hoping the products of our free agency ends up as great as our fanbase thinks rather than the other NBA fans

[gom]

I like Orlando's moves this offseason. I'd definitely give them a B. Oladipo is a good player, but with so much talent in the backcourt, I understand their move. Their frontcourt is now deep with Biyombo, Ibaka, Vucevic, Gordon, & Green. Zimmermann was a good 2nd round pick too.

With Payton & Fournier in the backcourt, Oladipo seemed to be the odd man out. Hezonja will also need more minutes. Green, Wilcox, Watson, Augustin, and Meeks give a lot of depth too.

This Magic team should compete for a playoff spot in the 5-8 range. They are still young and will get even better. It's a good time to be a fan of Orlando.