Welcome Okafor: Thread 2

[lotto29]

I'll just point out again the obnoxiousness of anyone starting a post with LOL.

Embiid has a ceiling of Hakeem, and if you disagree tell me any skill that Hakeem had that Embiid doesn't have the ability to do.

Other than health there is nothing. He just needs to grow, and prove it.

He was definitely better than Hakeem as a freshman.


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Take into perspective that Hakeem in today's game would look a lot different. He would look a little like Anthony Davis

If Davis averaged 25-28 points, 12-14 boards, and 3-4 blocks.

Hakeem today would be the most dominant player in the league.


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You have a away of taking things out of proportion. I said his game would be resemble Davis. And those numbers are not very far actually. Without that number of blocks. And probably less points too.

[sixerswillrule]

How do you feel about Noel and Embiid on the floor together?

I don't have any problem with Noel and Embiid on the floor together, because the solution for Noel is somewhere between (Rodman) totally ignoring him in the offense and (Jokim Noah) putting him at the Elbow and letting him set picks and pass out of the high post. Teams play this way all of the time. Noel's value is defense only, so you can get him out of the way of Embiid.

You can't do this with Okafor. He needs to be the low post player on his team. To play him in the high post or farther away, makes him near worthless on Offense. He's already useless on defense and he'll be in Embiid's way on Offense if he's in the low post.

Meh, I wouldn't do that either if the idea is to maximize Simmons and Embiid strength. The fact is, if Embiid is healthy, those 2 should be gone. Unless they want to play a 6th man role, then is fine by me.

Yeah, I guess I was thinking about Noel/Embiid in a vacuum. Simmons/Noel/Embiid is far from ideal.

[sixerswillrule]

In the healthy Embiid scenario, Okafor can ONLY stay a Sixer if he can start at the 4. That is precisely why I am pessimistic long term about his fit on the Sixers. For this up coming season, assuming that we trade Noel, and Embiid plays guarded minutes, then sure Okafor can play 30 minutes a night at the 5, but those minutes won't be available 2 years from now if Embiid is healthy.

Okafor playing the 4 is an iffy proposition, but it isn't an impossibility like him playing the 1, 2, or 3. He deserves a chance to show if he can do it. Even if he CAN do it, he may need to be traded eventually simply because of Simmons and Saric potentially being more effective there.

In the healthy Embiid scenario, Embiid still isn't playing more than 24 MPG until the 2018/19 season. If Noel is gone, Okafor could play 30 MPG for the next two seasons with most of that coming at center.

For this upcoming season Embiid may only average 24 mpg, but if he gets through the season unscathed he should be playing starter's minutes the following year.

I'm expecting around 15 MPG from him this season, 18 MPG tops, even if he's healthy. Bumped up to 24 the following season.

[Ericb5]

In the healthy Embiid scenario, Embiid still isn't playing more than 24 MPG until the 2018/19 season. If Noel is gone, Okafor could play 30 MPG for the next two seasons with most of that coming at center.

For this upcoming season Embiid may only average 24 mpg, but if he gets through the season unscathed he should be playing starter's minutes the following year.

I'm expecting around 15 MPG from him this season, 18 MPG tops, even if he's healthy. Bumped up to 24 the following season.

I guess we will find out. I hope they use him more than that. If he isn't showing a stress reaction I don't see any reason to limit his minutes so much.


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[Ericb5]

Take into perspective that Hakeem in today's game would look a lot different. He would look a little like Anthony Davis

If Davis averaged 25-28 points, 12-14 boards, and 3-4 blocks.

Hakeem today would be the most dominant player in the league.


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You have a away of taking things out of proportion. I said his game would be resemble Davis. And those numbers are not very far actually. Without that number of blocks. And probably less points too.

Davis is a 4 that plays away from the basket quite a bit, and Hakeem is a dominant center, so I guess I just don't see the comparison.

There is nobody similar to Hakeem in the league right now imo.


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[LloydFree]

I don't have any problem with Noel and Embiid on the floor together, because the solution for Noel is somewhere between (Rodman) totally ignoring him in the offense and (Jokim Noah) putting him at the Elbow and letting him set picks and pass out of the high post. Teams play this way all of the time. Noel's value is defense only, so you can get him out of the way of Embiid.

You can't do this with Okafor. He needs to be the low post player on his team. To play him in the high post or farther away, makes him near worthless on Offense. He's already useless on defense and he'll be in Embiid's way on Offense if he's in the low post.

Meh, I wouldn't do that either if the idea is to maximize Simmons and Embiid strength. The fact is, if Embiid is healthy, those 2 should be gone. Unless they want to play a 6th man role, then is fine by me.

Yeah, I guess I was thinking about Noel/Embiid in a vacuum. Simmons/Noel/Embiid is far from ideal.

Yes, Noel Simmons and Embiid is not optimal, but it can work if you put two (2) 3pt shooters with them. My preference is to NOT have Embiid on the court with either Okafor or Noel. But the reason I prefer Noel in that scenario is that I know they will always lean towards putting Okafor in the low post, because that's the only place he can be effective. With Noel, they won't have any option other than to develop Embiid properly. Additionally, you are marginalizing either Okafor or Noel on Offense if you play them at the PF, but at least Noel still adds value to the team as a defender. Okafor, in any scenario with Embiid as the Center, becomes useless on both ends of the court.

[marcush]

Neither Okafor, Noel or Embiid ft on the same team together long term.

In the short term, we have an opportunity for either Noel or Okafor to be the starting center while Embiid plays restricted minutes for at least this season.

None of these 3 centers should be asked to spend anytime at PF. At all. It would take a significant emotional investment in either Okafor or Noel to overlook the obvious space and pace issues offensively and the perimeter issues defensively.

When we drafted Simmons we defined our team going forward. We will play with pace and we will not be clogging his or Embiids lanes with another big.

[ExplosionsInDaSky]

Lol, Embiid is not Hakeem, stop!

I'll just point out again the obnoxiousness of anyone starting a post with LOL.

Embiid has a ceiling of Hakeem, and if you disagree tell me any skill that Hakeem had that Embiid doesn't have the ability to do.

Other than health there is nothing. He just needs to grow, and prove it.

He was definitely better than Hakeem as a freshman.


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Yeah, and i'll just point out the absurdity of people thinking that Embiid (after missing almost three years of basketball) still has the ceiling of a legendary center that was possibly the best at his position ever to play the game....Hakeem is in the discussion for greatest all time. Embiid is Hakeem? Like...No Problem??? That's like saying Jamal Murray is the next Michael Jordan . Now before you feverishly twist my words around and jump to conclusions by assuming that i'm comparing Murray to Embiid in terms of talent (i'm not ), lets just agree to disagree and stay civil . I personally don't think Embiid will be as special as Hakeem Olajuwon was. Maybe if he can stay healthy he can be an all star, but he hasn't even played a game yet, and people are still throwing the "Embiid is our Hakeem " statements out there as if this is 2014 and he hasn't broken a foot or hurt his back.

Now, I don't have Dr. Emmett Browns phone number to borrow his DeLorean, and I know nothing of Flux Capacitors, and I don't like to drive over 80 mph. So going back in time to save Embiid from a broken foot, and warn him about a potentially progressive shirley Temple addiction, along with impending back pain will be an impossible feat. If we were to somehow do that though, I would completely agree with you on Embiid possibly being as good as Hakeem was, provided he reaches that ceiling.

FWIW I hope you are right, and he becomes an amazing player along with Simmons and we kill it in the league for the next ten years. Until then i'm going to wait for football, wait for Halloween, and then wait for opening night. Now my brain is aching in violent shakes like Marty McFly bumping Good Vibrations by Marky Mark and The Funky Bunch.

Apologies for starting a sentence with LOL, it is most certainly an obnoxious way to reply....My bad....

[76ciology]

Between Noel and Okafor. Okafor is the prospect who plays more like a PF than a C. Jah has the making of atleast a two way player with likely average defense like Love, LMA, Bosh or Dirk than Noel who fits that Biyombo mold of a defensive anchor with weak offense. You can hide Jah's defensive weakness with having Simmons and Embiid playing high level defense just like LMA with TD/Kawhi.

You got no place to run on offense with Noel except around the paint. Noel has poor handles and is a horrible shooter to space the floor or be a threat outside the paint. Okafor has more upside as a shooter and can create shots off the dribble. He's more diverse on offense.

Defensively, Noel can play PF or C. BUT you marginalized Noel's shotblocking at PF. And we've seen it last season. Atleast Jah is a good individual defender and is a mobile player that can stay infront of his man. The complain with Jah is his weakside defense that compromise almost 99% of the defensive responsibility of a center. If you move him to PF, you would then ask less of him to provide weakside defense and just stay infront of that stretch 4 (see Wiz game when he was matched up with Jared Dudley).

The ONLY way you can have two bigs playing together is if they are skilled and diverse on offense and mobile on defense, something like how Spurs is trying to counter small ball since last season and now with Gasol/LMA.

Most teams just put their best players on the court then just figure out how to play D. That's why if you look at OKC they can afford on Kanter and Waiters and almost beat the GSW when they were up 3-1 or how Cavs were able to win with Kyrie, JR and Love.

On individual defense concerns, most teams have 3&D wings and stretch 4 (big 3 + floor spacers). You can hide guys who are liabilities on D when you ask them to guard those guys. It's RARE to have two good wings or two good bigs. Most times one of those guys are just floor spacers.

[Ericb5]

Lol, Embiid is not Hakeem, stop!

I'll just point out again the obnoxiousness of anyone starting a post with LOL.

Embiid has a ceiling of Hakeem, and if you disagree tell me any skill that Hakeem had that Embiid doesn't have the ability to do.

Other than health there is nothing. He just needs to grow, and prove it.

He was definitely better than Hakeem as a freshman.


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Yeah, and i'll just point out the absurdity of people thinking that Embiid (after missing almost three years of basketball) still has the ceiling of a legendary center that was possibly the best at his position ever to play the game....Hakeem is in the discussion for greatest all time. Embiid is Hakeem? Like...No Problem??? That's like saying Jamal Murray is the next Michael Jordan . Now before you feverishly twist my words around and jump to conclusions by assuming that i'm comparing Murray to Embiid in terms of talent (i'm not ), lets just agree to disagree and stay civil . I personally don't think Embiid will be as special as Hakeem Olajuwon was. Maybe if he can stay healthy he can be an all star, but he hasn't even played a game yet, and people are still throwing the "Embiid is our Hakeem " statements out there as if this is 2014 and he hasn't broken a foot or hurt his back.

Now, I don't have Dr. Emmett Browns phone number to borrow his DeLorean, and I know nothing of Flux Capacitors, and I don't like to drive over 80 mph. So going back in time to save Embiid from a broken foot, and warn him about a potentially progressive shirley Temple addiction, along with impending back pain will be an impossible feat. If we were to somehow do that though, I would completely agree with you on Embiid possibly being as good as Hakeem was, provided he reaches that ceiling.

FWIW I hope you are right, and he becomes an amazing player along with Simmons and we kill it in the league for the next ten years. Until then i'm going to wait for football, wait for Halloween, and then wait for opening night. Now my brain is aching in violent shakes like Marty McFly bumping Good Vibrations by Marky Mark and The Funky Bunch.

Apologies for starting a sentence with LOL, it is most certainly an obnoxious way to reply....My bad....

You are projecting on me. I didn't say that Embiid was Hakeem. I said that he has a ceiling of Hakeem.

Murray doesn't have close to the ceiling of Jordan, so that makes no sense.

You have to understand that, as good as someone like Hakeem was, that doesn't mean that there will never be someone like him again. Can you think of a single prospect in the last 25 years to be compared to Hakeem as a freshman?

Embiid is the first player that legitimately has a chance. Obviously, Embiid's floor is a Greg Oden situation. Nobody is counting on anything here.


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[Negrodamus]

He's so bad.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

WHAT EVEN IS THIS:

Read on Twitter

Every guy that plays for Brett Brown plays hard except for Jahlil Okafor and you guys are defending him like he's a superstar in the making. SMDH.

Other than ETdagawd I don't see anyone saying that he is a superstar in the making.

What jumps out at me from watching those gif's is that he is unsure what to do. That is what I always see with him on defense. He doesn't know if he is supposed to follow the person that he is defending to the top of the key, or stay under the basket. He is slow to react, and he isn't explosive enough like Noel to make up for the poor recognition with athleticism.

He looks bad in these clips, but I will be much more concerned if he looks like this on defense at the end of his third year. Most naysayers think that he is what he is, and I think that he needs major coaching, and will improve.

I feel like you're not appreciating the utter lack of effort he showed. It's beyond being unsure, it's not caring.

This has been a consistent issue with him his entire career, why do we think it will improve?

It's pretty bad. I'm hoping with every fiber of my being that we aren't having this discussion about Simmons in a year too.

[Negrodamus]

I'll just point out again the obnoxiousness of anyone starting a post with LOL.

Embiid has a ceiling of Hakeem, and if you disagree tell me any skill that Hakeem had that Embiid doesn't have the ability to do.

Other than health there is nothing. He just needs to grow, and prove it.

He was definitely better than Hakeem as a freshman.


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Yeah, and i'll just point out the absurdity of people thinking that Embiid (after missing almost three years of basketball) still has the ceiling of a legendary center that was possibly the best at his position ever to play the game....Hakeem is in the discussion for greatest all time. Embiid is Hakeem? Like...No Problem??? That's like saying Jamal Murray is the next Michael Jordan . Now before you feverishly twist my words around and jump to conclusions by assuming that i'm comparing Murray to Embiid in terms of talent (i'm not ), lets just agree to disagree and stay civil . I personally don't think Embiid will be as special as Hakeem Olajuwon was. Maybe if he can stay healthy he can be an all star, but he hasn't even played a game yet, and people are still throwing the "Embiid is our Hakeem " statements out there as if this is 2014 and he hasn't broken a foot or hurt his back.

Now, I don't have Dr. Emmett Browns phone number to borrow his DeLorean, and I know nothing of Flux Capacitors, and I don't like to drive over 80 mph. So going back in time to save Embiid from a broken foot, and warn him about a potentially progressive shirley Temple addiction, along with impending back pain will be an impossible feat. If we were to somehow do that though, I would completely agree with you on Embiid possibly being as good as Hakeem was, provided he reaches that ceiling.

FWIW I hope you are right, and he becomes an amazing player along with Simmons and we kill it in the league for the next ten years. Until then i'm going to wait for football, wait for Halloween, and then wait for opening night. Now my brain is aching in violent shakes like Marty McFly bumping Good Vibrations by Marky Mark and The Funky Bunch.

Apologies for starting a sentence with LOL, it is most certainly an obnoxious way to reply....My bad....

You are projecting on me. I didn't say that Embiid was Hakeem. I said that he has a ceiling of Hakeem.

Murray doesn't have close to the ceiling of Jordan, so that makes no sense.

You have to understand that, as good as someone like Hakeem was, that doesn't mean that there will never be someone like him again. Can you think of a single prospect in the last 25 years to be compared to Hakeem as a freshman?

Embiid is the first player that legitimately has a chance. Obviously, Embiid's floor is a Greg Oden situation. Nobody is counting on anything here.


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I vaguely remember having this discussion with you a few years ago. Regardless, I hate the "ceiling" conversation because it's an attempt to beef up a prospect without the "comparison" stigma. Either way, Embiid is not/never was the explosive athlete Hakeem was. He also hasn't scored over 20 points since he was in high school. We also don't know if he has anywhere near the defensive instincts of Hakeem (if college is our only indicator, then no).

He is enormous, athletic, and African. So that's a start, I guess.

[rzzzzz]

pretty hilarious reading local pundits opine about the the never ending controversy of our front line situation when they are the ones who can't leave it alone, constantly ginning is up with some new "analysis" or trade rumor or something. and their hubris in demanding that we make a trade immediately, even if we get nothing in return, to prevent the damage of going into the pre-season with 3 centers is downright jawdropping. c'mon. don't you want to see what simmons, saric, embiid, okafor and noel can do in various line-ups? with the possible exception of a truly satisfying trade offer for a sterling backcourt prospect, on court performance and developing team chemistry will guide Bryan and Brett's decisions.

[Ericb5]

Yeah, and i'll just point out the absurdity of people thinking that Embiid (after missing almost three years of basketball) still has the ceiling of a legendary center that was possibly the best at his position ever to play the game....Hakeem is in the discussion for greatest all time. Embiid is Hakeem? Like...No Problem??? That's like saying Jamal Murray is the next Michael Jordan . Now before you feverishly twist my words around and jump to conclusions by assuming that i'm comparing Murray to Embiid in terms of talent (i'm not ), lets just agree to disagree and stay civil . I personally don't think Embiid will be as special as Hakeem Olajuwon was. Maybe if he can stay healthy he can be an all star, but he hasn't even played a game yet, and people are still throwing the "Embiid is our Hakeem " statements out there as if this is 2014 and he hasn't broken a foot or hurt his back.

Now, I don't have Dr. Emmett Browns phone number to borrow his DeLorean, and I know nothing of Flux Capacitors, and I don't like to drive over 80 mph. So going back in time to save Embiid from a broken foot, and warn him about a potentially progressive shirley Temple addiction, along with impending back pain will be an impossible feat. If we were to somehow do that though, I would completely agree with you on Embiid possibly being as good as Hakeem was, provided he reaches that ceiling.

FWIW I hope you are right, and he becomes an amazing player along with Simmons and we kill it in the league for the next ten years. Until then i'm going to wait for football, wait for Halloween, and then wait for opening night. Now my brain is aching in violent shakes like Marty McFly bumping Good Vibrations by Marky Mark and The Funky Bunch.

Apologies for starting a sentence with LOL, it is most certainly an obnoxious way to reply....My bad....

You are projecting on me. I didn't say that Embiid was Hakeem. I said that he has a ceiling of Hakeem.

Murray doesn't have close to the ceiling of Jordan, so that makes no sense.

You have to understand that, as good as someone like Hakeem was, that doesn't mean that there will never be someone like him again. Can you think of a single prospect in the last 25 years to be compared to Hakeem as a freshman?

Embiid is the first player that legitimately has a chance. Obviously, Embiid's floor is a Greg Oden situation. Nobody is counting on anything here.


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I vaguely remember having this discussion with you a few years ago. Regardless, I hate the "ceiling" conversation because it's an attempt to beef up a prospect without the "comparison" stigma. Either way, Embiid is not/never was the explosive athlete Hakeem was. He also hasn't scored over 20 points since he was in high school. We also don't know if he has anywhere near the defensive instincts of Hakeem (if college is our only indicator, then no).

He is enormous, athletic, and African. So that's a start, I guess.

Maybe he isn't as quick as Hakeem, but he is at least 3 inches taller than him, and has all the body control and footwork. They are both natural athletes, and natural learners.

I really don't understand why people shy away from the obvious. He is just as good of a prospect as Hakeem was at the same point in his development.

That doesn't mean that he will progress as far as Hakeem.


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[ankle420breaker]

As prospects, you could certainly argue that Embiid and Hakeem were in the same tier. The injuries and time away from the game are likely to stunt or delay his development, but the skill set, instincts, and physical gifts are there. Joel is galaxies away from Hakeem in terms of accomplishments, but at that stage in both of their early college careers they were pretty comparable.

Joel's growth spurt and wider frame could add a dominant dimension to his game, which is why I still consider him the best prospect on the team, despite being pretty high on both Simmons and Okafor.



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[Negrodamus]

You are projecting on me. I didn't say that Embiid was Hakeem. I said that he has a ceiling of Hakeem.

Murray doesn't have close to the ceiling of Jordan, so that makes no sense.

You have to understand that, as good as someone like Hakeem was, that doesn't mean that there will never be someone like him again. Can you think of a single prospect in the last 25 years to be compared to Hakeem as a freshman?

Embiid is the first player that legitimately has a chance. Obviously, Embiid's floor is a Greg Oden situation. Nobody is counting on anything here.


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I vaguely remember having this discussion with you a few years ago. Regardless, I hate the "ceiling" conversation because it's an attempt to beef up a prospect without the "comparison" stigma. Either way, Embiid is not/never was the explosive athlete Hakeem was. He also hasn't scored over 20 points since he was in high school. We also don't know if he has anywhere near the defensive instincts of Hakeem (if college is our only indicator, then no).

He is enormous, athletic, and African. So that's a start, I guess.

Maybe he isn't as quick as Hakeem, but he is at least 3 inches taller than him, and has all the body control and footwork. They are both natural athletes, and natural learners.

I really don't understand why people shy away from the obvious. He is just as good of a prospect as Hakeem was at the same point in his development.

That doesn't mean that he will progress as far as Hakeem.


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No, he WAS as good of a prospect as Hakeem was at the same stage (freshman year of college). Two years of no playing later, we don't know what his new "ceiling" is. Hakeem might not have become the same player if he had to sit out for two years after his freshman season.

[LloydFree]

I vaguely remember having this discussion with you a few years ago. Regardless, I hate the "ceiling" conversation because it's an attempt to beef up a prospect without the "comparison" stigma. Either way, Embiid is not/never was the explosive athlete Hakeem was. He also hasn't scored over 20 points since he was in high school. We also don't know if he has anywhere near the defensive instincts of Hakeem (if college is our only indicator, then no).

He is enormous, athletic, and African. So that's a start, I guess.

Maybe he isn't as quick as Hakeem, but he is at least 3 inches taller than him, and has all the body control and footwork. They are both natural athletes, and natural learners.

I really don't understand why people shy away from the obvious. He is just as good of a prospect as Hakeem was at the same point in his development.

That doesn't mean that he will progress as far as Hakeem.


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No, he WAS as good of a prospect as Hakeem was at the same stage (freshman year of college). Two years of no playing later, we don't know what his new "ceiling" is. Hakeem might not have become the same player if he had to sit out for two years after his freshman season.

Nobody even knew who Olajuwon was after his freshman season. So if you are comparing Apples to Apples, Embiid was a better prospect after his Freshman year. Olajuwon did get dramatically better his sophomore and junior year, but he wasn't the Olajuwon we know now offensively, even after his Junior year. Olajuwon was a better and more fluid athlete than Embiid seems to be, and his skill eventually caught up with his other world athleticism.

[Ericb5]

I vaguely remember having this discussion with you a few years ago. Regardless, I hate the "ceiling" conversation because it's an attempt to beef up a prospect without the "comparison" stigma. Either way, Embiid is not/never was the explosive athlete Hakeem was. He also hasn't scored over 20 points since he was in high school. We also don't know if he has anywhere near the defensive instincts of Hakeem (if college is our only indicator, then no).

He is enormous, athletic, and African. So that's a start, I guess.

Maybe he isn't as quick as Hakeem, but he is at least 3 inches taller than him, and has all the body control and footwork. They are both natural athletes, and natural learners.

I really don't understand why people shy away from the obvious. He is just as good of a prospect as Hakeem was at the same point in his development.

That doesn't mean that he will progress as far as Hakeem.


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No, he WAS as good of a prospect as Hakeem was at the same stage (freshman year of college). Two years of no playing later, we don't know what his new "ceiling" is. Hakeem might not have become the same player if he had to sit out for two years after his freshman season.

Well we are probably talking about the same thing then. I don't think a prospect's ceiling changes. It just becomes more or less likely to be reachable.

His ceiling as a prospect is as high as Hakeem. You have just lost confidence that he can reach it.

That's your choice of course. I personally haven't lost faith at all. If he can stay healthy, he is going to be a monster.

Also, I think that there isn't really any such thing as "lost development time". It is just "delayed development time"

Had he never gotten hurt he would be a better basketball player today for sure, but it doesn't mean that he won't be the same player he was destined to be when he is 25.

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[Arsenal]

Yeah Embiid was ahead of Hakeem as a freshman. I think Olajuwon or David Robinson upside is still achievable assuming he stays relatively healthy. The guy is still only 22 and by all accounts is a fast learner. Anyone who has seen him over the last couple of years has vouched for the fact that his physical abilities are all still there and even improved.

[spikeslovechild]

pretty hilarious reading local pundits opine about the the never ending controversy of our front line situation when they are the ones who can't leave it alone, constantly ginning is up with some new "analysis" or trade rumor or something. and their hubris in demanding that we make a trade immediately, even if we get nothing in return, to prevent the damage of going into the pre-season with 3 centers is downright jawdropping. c'mon. don't you want to see what simmons, saric, embiid, okafor and noel can do in various line-ups? with the possible exception of a truly satisfying trade offer for a sterling backcourt prospect, on court performance and developing team chemistry will guide Bryan and Brett's decisions.

I want Noel traded. Longterm if Embiid stays healthy (big if) he really doesn't have a spot. His rookie deal also expires at the end of the year which doesn't give us the luxury of slow playing things.

What i will say though is that I'd rather keep Noel even if the fit is non-optimal then make some of the awful trades being bandied about here. Especially considering most of the players being discussed are probably backups once this team gets good anyways.