Orlando early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Smitty731/HowardMass)

[bondom34]

but maybe not every trade that is universally panned is actually bad. Maybe a trade works out for both teams.

you act like your opinion and view is rock solid, 100% accurate. you dont know more than anyone else here, unless you are hiding the fact that you work for an NBA team.

So, deal. Lets shut the board down. I'll lock up all the threads, I mean none of us work for teams, we can't make trades, and nobody knows how anything works out for years down the line. We really shouldn't do offseason reviews either. Nobody knows, so why bother.

I'll email Howard and let him know we're closing the boards down for you.

again, its presentation. You present yourself that you seem to know more than anyone else, your opinion carries more weight than anyone else. ive seen it in multiple threads. I dont know if its because you are a mod here, you think that your opinion is higher than others or not. i would say im done debating with you, but you dont really debate. you throw your opinion and dont consider anyone elses viewpoint worth merit, whether you agree with them or not.

I didn't. I mean, if you'd like me to never make a rebuttal fine. But that's not really how a debate works. I've considered other's opinions too. Seems to me you're the one who's not considering you've dismissed everyone else itt.

[wise1-2]

Yeah just because the trade is being criticized I don't think it makes it a bad trade. Again most of hennigan's trades were criticized initially only to end up being good trades. I don't doubt hennigan's foresight ans I'd think people would've learned to give hennigan time to prove himself, but I guess not. The Howard trade, the gordon pick, jj trade, afflalo trade were all considered bad moves initially. Even the Harris trade proved to be a good move after replacing him with biyombo.

[MJallday59]

Just not sold on Payton. If we could somehow move Payton/Lakers Pick for Bledsoe...

[wise1-2]

Yeah, it really should. The 12th pick alone got Hill, 11 is a valuable asset. And Ibaka for VO would be about fair value in a trade, but if you're going just off last season, VO was the better player. To boot, he's going to be a RFA instead of UFA and will be making less on his next contract. I think they had about even trade value, so after that they gave up 11 for nothing. And again, that's a valuable asset.

I'm not just going off last season. It's been made clear ibaka didn't like Donovan, and the Thunder apparently had a lot going on inside that locker room. I do think Ibaka is more proven than Victor at this point. I also think Ibaka holds more value because he has a unique skill set where Oladipo doesn't have an ideal skill set for a SG. I've watched both play for years and trust me Oladipo does nothing at a high level. Four years in the league and he still hasn't developed into a great defender, which many projected he can achieve in his first couple of years. I think you should hope he develops into a healthier Eric Bledsoe, I always thought he'd be that type of player, but even that's not a given. Bledsoe was a great defender since his rookie year and a better shooter. Its possible that Oladipo doesn't reach the level that Ibaka is/was capable of. Like I said before, I'm not a big fan of this trade for the Magic, but I dont see how its as bad as people are making it out to be. I think maybe if the thunder sent a 15-20th pick back the Magic's way it would've been evenly balanced, but I don't think that holds up a big trade.

I mean, you're free to feel that way, and Serge is a high level guy at what he's good at. Problem is he's not at other things, and VO's still a higher end SG. He's an above average defender by any metric I've found. And Bledsoe's a great player, so that would be fantastic. It would have been fair with no picks at all, and even then the contract status helps OKC. The pick was a steal. Orlando should have been able to pull a player in with that pick of similar caliber to Serge without VO going anywhere.

I disagree, and as far as their skill sets, ibaka's is much more unique and desirable for his position.
Again I'm not sweating losing a back up big man. That pick was never going to make a big impact on the franchise, and Oladipo has a ton of work to do to reach Bledsoe level. Don't forget he's already 24. Like I said it's not a given he reaches that level.

[wise1-2]

The misplaced faith in elfrid Payton is quite strange. If it came to breaking up that backcourt I'd have favored oladipo over Payton and done a trade for a shooter instead of pursuing Ibaka before his payday. The Ibaka trade, along with not upgrading pg and insisting on using Gordon at sf is likely to blow up soon with horrid spacing issues.

Ibaka is a good shooter when he gets time to lock and load alongside Durant and Westbrook but here he is likely to get a ton of contested looks and struggle as a mediocre shooter.

Vucevic can make mid range shots but cannot stretch his range to three, Payton and Gordon are hopeless even from midrange so sooner or later they're forced to start hezonja and hope he is ready while moving Gordon to the bench and praying Meeks is healthy.

I do love the Fournier signing, so there's that. This is overall a 38 win team.

I respect your opinion here but I must ask do you think the spacing got worse, stayed the same or got better?
What do you think about the talent of the major rotation compared to last year?

Last year
Payton,Oladipo,Fournier,Gordon, Vucevic
Bench: Jason Smith, Dewayne Dedmon, Ersan Ilyasova,C.J. Watson, Mario Hezonja

This year
Payton/Fournier/Gordon/Ibaka/Vucevic
Bench: Jeff Green/Bismack Biyombo/Jodie Meeks/D.J. Augustin/Mario Hezonja

Your spacing was bad last year but getting a PG that can make an outside shot coming out of pick and rolls could have resolved issues if you played Gordon at PF.

Now it's no better and you are making it worse by playing a PF at SF.

Vogel himself claimed in interviews that you'd have to win games with a 70-68 scoreline. That's not a great endorsement of roster balance from your coach himself.

People fail to realise adding Ibaka doesn't push Gordon away from the hoop. Essentially, Ibaka can play the spot up shooter role at PF. You're getting too hung up on positions. Gordon and ibaka provide a lot of versatility. You definitely want Gordon guarding the perimeter where he can be elite. Ibaka is as good as they come in terms of fit at PF

[bondom34]

I'm not just going off last season. It's been made clear ibaka didn't like Donovan, and the Thunder apparently had a lot going on inside that locker room. I do think Ibaka is more proven than Victor at this point. I also think Ibaka holds more value because he has a unique skill set where Oladipo doesn't have an ideal skill set for a SG. I've watched both play for years and trust me Oladipo does nothing at a high level. Four years in the league and he still hasn't developed into a great defender, which many projected he can achieve in his first couple of years. I think you should hope he develops into a healthier Eric Bledsoe, I always thought he'd be that type of player, but even that's not a given. Bledsoe was a great defender since his rookie year and a better shooter. Its possible that Oladipo doesn't reach the level that Ibaka is/was capable of. Like I said before, I'm not a big fan of this trade for the Magic, but I dont see how its as bad as people are making it out to be. I think maybe if the thunder sent a 15-20th pick back the Magic's way it would've been evenly balanced, but I don't think that holds up a big trade.

I mean, you're free to feel that way, and Serge is a high level guy at what he's good at. Problem is he's not at other things, and VO's still a higher end SG. He's an above average defender by any metric I've found. And Bledsoe's a great player, so that would be fantastic. It would have been fair with no picks at all, and even then the contract status helps OKC. The pick was a steal. Orlando should have been able to pull a player in with that pick of similar caliber to Serge without VO going anywhere.

I disagree, and as far as their skill sets, ibaka's is much more unique and desirable for his position.
Again I'm not sweating losing a back up big man. That pick was never going to make a big impact on the franchise, and Oladipo has a ton of work to do to reach Bledsoe level. Don't forget he's already 24. Like I said it's not a given he reaches that level.

And again, that's fine. But giving away lottery picks is a bad idea, period. And Ibaka is more unique, he's also not played as well the last 2 seasons. And VO doesn't have to be Bledsoe, he's already a top 10 SG most likely, and Ibaka's older. And unrestricted. And more expensive.

[wise1-2]

I mean, you're free to feel that way, and Serge is a high level guy at what he's good at. Problem is he's not at other things, and VO's still a higher end SG. He's an above average defender by any metric I've found. And Bledsoe's a great player, so that would be fantastic. It would have been fair with no picks at all, and even then the contract status helps OKC. The pick was a steal. Orlando should have been able to pull a player in with that pick of similar caliber to Serge without VO going anywhere.

I disagree, and as far as their skill sets, ibaka's is much more unique and desirable for his position.
Again I'm not sweating losing a back up big man. That pick was never going to make a big impact on the franchise, and Oladipo has a ton of work to do to reach Bledsoe level. Don't forget he's already 24. Like I said it's not a given he reaches that level.

And again, that's fine. But giving away lottery picks is a bad idea, period. And Ibaka is more unique, he's also not played as well the last 2 seasons. And VO doesn't have to be Bledsoe, he's already a top 10 SG most likely, and Ibaka's older. And unrestricted. And more expensive.

Well that's not saying much considering SG position is the weakest in the NBA. I think being a top 10 PF is more impressive. Ibaka being unrestricted won't matter if Hennigan is confident of resigning him. We also dont know how much he'll get. He might get max, and might not. Maybe Hennigan can work out an extension for a little less money. We'll see what happens with their contract situations. Oladipo is demanding a max extension though.

[RexRyan]

"Scott Skiles quitting on Orlando Magic is pathetic low point in franchise history" - March, 2016, Orlando Sentinal

Since Hennigan took over in June, 2012.....

20-62, last in Southeast
23-59, last in Southeast
25-57, last in Southeast
35-47, last in Southeast

If Hennigan had such a long list of good deals, they would have done something better than last last place at least once in four years. Now the rebuild has been short-circuited because the aging owner wants to make the playoffs! What could possibly go wrong?

[wise1-2]

"Scott Skiles quitting on Orlando Magic is pathetic low point in franchise history" - March, 2016, Orlando Sentinal

Since Hennigan took over in June, 2012.....

20-62, last in Southeast
23-59, last in Southeast
25-57, last in Southeast
35-47, last in Southeast

If Hennigan had such a long list of good deals, they would have done something better than last last place at least once in four years. Now the rebuild has been short-circuited because the aging owner wants to make the playoffs! What could possibly go wrong?

Its called a rebuild. They were the second youngest team in minutes played last season. They only traded one of their many young guys to accelerate team growth. They had to move one of Mario, Fournier or Oladipo. If they make another 10 game improvement next year like they did last year, that's 45 wins. Also, I'm sure whoever wrote that article completely changed his mind when Vogel decided to sign with the Magic over the multiple teams that were pursuing him. Skiles leaving was the best thing that happened to the Magic this offseason.

[Texas Chuck]

I'm going to say this once:

If we have to lock an Offseason Review thread because people can't be reasonable and not attack each other, we all look like a collective bunch of idiots.

Attack the post and not the poster. No one hates your team.

And yes there is a lot of backpedaling on all sides here. I'm far too lazy to pull up a bunch of old posts but just as many Orlando and OKC fans were against a deal like what ultimately went down back in the spring, when variations were being proposed. So, how about you all stop and move on?

I don't understand why some people chose to totally ignore Smitty here. So I've quoted him and made it really big. Warnings will be issued to the next person who makes a negative comment about another poster itt.

[pacers33granger]

I'm very curious to see how Orlando's offense looks this season. As others have mentioned, there's some strange fits and Vogel is a poor coach offensively. I could easily see them having a top 5 defense and bottom 5 offense.

[wise1-2]

I'm very curious to see how Orlando's offense looks this season. As others have mentioned, there's some strange fits and Vogel is a poor coach offensively. I could easily see them having a top 5 defense and bottom 5 offense.

You just described the pacers this past season. They won 45 games.

[Smitty731]

Just not sold on Payton. If we could somehow move Payton/Lakers Pick for Bledsoe...

The Lakers pick doesn't have nearly as much value as it once did. Half the league thinks it will never convey as a 1st rounder.

The other half thinks that by the time it does convey, the Lakers will be good again and it won't be nearly as valuable a pick as it could have been.

[pacers33granger]

I'm very curious to see how Orlando's offense looks this season. As others have mentioned, there's some strange fits and Vogel is a poor coach offensively. I could easily see them having a top 5 defense and bottom 5 offense.

You just described the pacers this past season. They won 45 games.

Ok? I didn't say that would mean they would suck. But I can tell you from experience that's not the way to win in the playoffs (and we had a top 15 player).

[wise1-2]

I'm very curious to see how Orlando's offense looks this season. As others have mentioned, there's some strange fits and Vogel is a poor coach offensively. I could easily see them having a top 5 defense and bottom 5 offense.

You just described the pacers this past season. They won 45 games.

Ok? I didn't say that would mean they would suck. But I can tell you from experience that's not the way to win in the playoffs (and we had a top 15 player).

I never said you did, just wanted to make it clear how defense can take you to the play offs. Yes the pacers had Paul George, but his supporting cast was underwhelming. Like I said anyway the Magic aren't a finished product. The first step is to just make the play offs.

[HartfordWhalers]

Just not sold on Payton. If we could somehow move Payton/Lakers Pick for Bledsoe...

The Lakers pick doesn't have nearly as much value as it once did. Half the league thinks it will never convey as a 1st rounder.

The other half thinks that by the time it does convey, the Lakers will be good again and it won't be nearly as valuable a pick as it could have been.

I really hope it conveys (for Orlando's sake only of course).

[Smitty731]

Just not sold on Payton. If we could somehow move Payton/Lakers Pick for Bledsoe...

The Lakers pick doesn't have nearly as much value as it once did. Half the league thinks it will never convey as a 1st rounder.

The other half thinks that by the time it does convey, the Lakers will be good again and it won't be nearly as valuable a pick as it could have been.

I really hope it conveys (for Orlando's sake only of course).

I'm sure you have only the purest of concerns as far as that matter.

[HartfordWhalers]

The Lakers pick doesn't have nearly as much value as it once did. Half the league thinks it will never convey as a 1st rounder.

The other half thinks that by the time it does convey, the Lakers will be good again and it won't be nearly as valuable a pick as it could have been.

I really hope it conveys (for Orlando's sake only of course).

I'm sure you have only the purest of concerns as far as that matter.

ESPN's forecast put them at 3rd, so with a ~47% chance of keeping the pick.

If they do, I wonder if the 4 year contracts to Deng and Movgov will be revisited as subtle tanking signings versus an attempt to win now.

(Cause this thread needed more gasoline)

[bondom34]

I disagree, and as far as their skill sets, ibaka's is much more unique and desirable for his position.
Again I'm not sweating losing a back up big man. That pick was never going to make a big impact on the franchise, and Oladipo has a ton of work to do to reach Bledsoe level. Don't forget he's already 24. Like I said it's not a given he reaches that level.

And again, that's fine. But giving away lottery picks is a bad idea, period. And Ibaka is more unique, he's also not played as well the last 2 seasons. And VO doesn't have to be Bledsoe, he's already a top 10 SG most likely, and Ibaka's older. And unrestricted. And more expensive.

Well that's not saying much considering SG position is the weakest in the NBA. I think being a top 10 PF is more impressive. Ibaka being unrestricted won't matter if Hennigan is confident of resigning him. We also dont know how much he'll get. He might get max, and might not. Maybe Hennigan can work out an extension for a little less money. We'll see what happens with their contract situations. Oladipo is demanding a max extension though.

Serge wasn't a top 10 power forward last year though. To add, he will definitely be making more money on his next contract, Ann's just giving a pic on top of that makes it worse.

[Statlanta]

"Scott Skiles quitting on Orlando Magic is pathetic low point in franchise history" - March, 2016, Orlando Sentinal

Since Hennigan took over in June, 2012.....

20-62, last in Southeast
23-59, last in Southeast
25-57, last in Southeast
35-47, last in Southeast

If Hennigan had such a long list of good deals, they would have done something better than last last place at least once in four years. Now the rebuild has been short-circuited because the aging owner wants to make the playoffs! What could possibly go wrong?

I thinks it's perfectly fair in calling us out in not trying to improve our fortunes and rushing in with the roster we have now. I would also point to the increasing win totals next to the last in Southeast label so I believe that somewhere in there the talent is improving. I would also consider the star power in the division during those years(LBJ, Wade, Bosh, Millsap, Horford, Kemba, Batum, Wall, Beal) and say that improving with Nikola Vucevic as our best and tenured player against those guys in this division is something to be respected.

I believe the conflicting goals of ownership, GM, and coach led to Skiles withdrawal(your quote) and even then it only brought in another guy on the same page with the GM who will improve our coaching situation. I believe this offseason was Hennigan trying to find the balance of focusing who was the core and trying to scratch the owner's itch of contending for playoffs with our roster. I'm not saying it is the right path but with the cards we were dealt I believe we are in the mix with the other Eastern Conference teams when comparing are risks and flaws to others.