Political Roundtable Part X

[nate33]

Continued from here

[AFM]

Just to defend Nate briefly and then we'll let it go: "shenanigans" is a word used quite frequently by millennials. I've never heard of it being used to describe Hitler's regime. I hear it on a daily basis.

[Ruzious]

Just to defend Nate briefly and then we'll let it go: "shenanigans" is a word used quite frequently by millennials. I've never heard of it being used to describe Hitler's regime. I hear it on a daily basis.

And on South Park.

[montestewart]

Just to defend Nate briefly and then we'll let it go: "shenanigans" is a word used quite frequently by millennials. I've never heard of it being used to describe Hitler's regime. I hear it on a daily basis.

Watch on YouTube

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

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[payitforward]

Nate -- the chart you cite back on p. 99 doesn't support your point as you seem to think it does. The curve shapes of Germany and the Netherlands are quite similar overall. The only significant difference is that by the last years of the '30s, Germany was no longer growing.

If you look at a similar chart for the US, you'll see a similar shape. Hence, the shape of that curve can't be regarded as resulting from policies at all, but rather it reflects the overall global economic situation.

As to citing the tremendous achievements of German science in the period -- they were very real. They were also very real in the '20s, and in the teens, and in the previous century as well. Ditto in engineering. Ditto, for that matter, in music, literture, philosophy, etc. None of that is at question here. And none of it has even the smallest relationship to Nazi policies -- economic or other.

Hitler achieved nothing but the wholesale destruction of his country. Yes, he turned his entire energy to building up the German military over a period of @ 7 years. But that force, extraordinary as it was, had no chance whatever of achieving Hitler's goal of a) dominating the entire European land mass and b) defining the cultural shape of the future on (what he saw as) a "German" model.

In fact, he defeated only weak enemies: Poland, France, the Netherlands, Belgium. Moreover, once the US entered the war, it took us about 18 months to surpass what he'd built over those long years. Indeed, it's likely that even had we not entered the war, though there was no chance of this given our vigorous support of his enemies led to him drawing us in, the invasion of the Soviet Union spelled the end of the Hitler regime. It would have taken longer and been even more bloody and costly of human lives, but I don't see how the end could have been different (but no one can make a counter-factual truth claim, so I'm not doing that: just what it looks like to me).

I don't for a moment take you to be praising Hitler or defending him, Nate. I don't even think you mean that *on balance*, or in the long haul (not that it was all that long), his economic policies were successful. I think you are making a much more limited claim. But I believe that claim itself to be wrong -- to be indefensible, in fact. It crumbles under any extended analysis of the evidence.

I was in DC a few days ago, at the Lincoln Memorial, a place that moves me every time I visit it. On a side wall is engraved Lincoln's second inaugural address. I imagine it's familiar to you and to others here. If not, here is the section that brings me to my knees and to tears every time I read it. I'd say it's relevant, but make your own judgment:

"The Almighty has His own purposes. 'Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh.' If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him?

"Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.'"

Only a fool thinks that "economics" escapes Lincoln's eloquent point, and you are no fool.

[nate33]

Nate -- the chart you cite back on p. 99 doesn't support your point as you seem to think it does. The curve shapes of Germany and the Netherlands are quite similar overall. The only significant difference is that by the last years of the '30s, Germany was no longer growing.

You are misreading the chart. The chart doesn't measure GDP. It measures GDP growth. For the 7 years from 1933 to 1939, Germany had an average annual GDP growth rate of 9%. That's massive! The Netherlands GDP growth rate over the same time period was a paltry 2% per year. To say there's no significant difference between the two is just plain false. Yes, their respective economies tended to have peaks and valleys that were in sync because both countries operated within the larger global economy, but Germany was clearly doing a heck of a lot better than the Netherlands throughout that time frame.



I'm done talking about this. I don't think anybody cares anymore.

[AFM]

I agree Nate let's move on.

For anyone asking, "to what end", here it is. Black Lives Matter has come forth with a list of demands.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-01/end-war-black-people-blacklivesmatter-demands-reparations-investments-political-powe

Full PDF is in the link

Here are the highlights from their list:

The demands are fairly extensive and call for, among many other things, the following for Black people: free and open access to all public universities, retroactive forgiveness of all student loan debt, passage of H.R. 40 to study a "Reparation Proposal for African Americans," removal of police from schools, retroactive decriminalization and release of all people held on drug and prostitution-related offenses and a restructuring of local, state and federal tax codes to achieve a "radical and sustainable redistribution of wealth."

This **** get more and more ridiculous every day

[payitforward]

Nate -- the chart you cite back on p. 99 blah blah blah....

You are misreading the chart. etc. etc....

I'm done talking about this. I don't think anybody cares anymore.

Hallelujah!!
(you are right, tho, I did misrepresent the chart.)

[Ruzious]

I agree Nate let's move on.

For anyone asking, "to what end", here it is. Black Lives Matter has come forth with a list of demands.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-01/end-war-black-people-blacklivesmatter-demands-reparations-investments-political-powe

Full PDF is in the link

Here are the highlights from their list:

The demands are fairly extensive and call for, among many other things, the following for Black people: free and open access to all public universities, retroactive forgiveness of all student loan debt, passage of H.R. 40 to study a "Reparation Proposal for African Americans," removal of police from schools, retroactive decriminalization and release of all people held on drug and prostitution-related offenses and a restructuring of local, state and federal tax codes to achieve a "radical and sustainable redistribution of wealth."

This **** get more and more ridiculous every day

If that's accurate, they've officially become part of the problem. Some of their "demands" are to destroy things that are for everyone's benefit - including the people they claim to be helping. Throughout their existence, "Black Lives Matter" has suffered from poor leadership, and now they're just embarrassing themselves.

[AFM]

I agree Nate let's move on.

For anyone asking, "to what end", here it is. Black Lives Matter has come forth with a list of demands.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-01/end-war-black-people-blacklivesmatter-demands-reparations-investments-political-powe

Full PDF is in the link

Here are the highlights from their list:

The demands are fairly extensive and call for, among many other things, the following for Black people: free and open access to all public universities, retroactive forgiveness of all student loan debt, passage of H.R. 40 to study a "Reparation Proposal for African Americans," removal of police from schools, retroactive decriminalization and release of all people held on drug and prostitution-related offenses and a restructuring of local, state and federal tax codes to achieve a "radical and sustainable redistribution of wealth."

This **** get more and more ridiculous every day

If that's accurate, they've officially become part of the problem. Some of their "demands" are to destroy things that are for everyone's benefit - including the people they claim to be helping. Throughout their existence, "Black Lives Matter" has suffered from poor leadership, and now they're just embarrassing themselves.

Here's their official site:
https://policy.m4bl.org/

It's quite extensive, just their page on "reparations" is long enough to spend all morning reading.

2. Reparations for the continued divestment from, discrimination toward and exploitation of our communities in the form of a guaranteed minimum livable income for all Black people, with clearly articulated corporate regulations.

A minimum livable income, just for being black?

[Zonkerbl]

If you want to discuss economic performance under a dictator, you might want to consider an example under less extreme circumstances than Hitler's Germany. Take a look at Chile under Pinochet.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6069233

[I_Like_Dirt]

Hallelujah!!
(you are right, tho, I did misrepresent the chart.)

I don't want to restart this, either, but I will say that I think it's downright foolish to completely write-off everything your opponent did as a failure and ineffective just because they didn't win, no matter how hateful they might be. It's also dangerous to paint them in a positive light at times, I get it, but to move forward, there will be other challenges where it will be important to understand that not everything others do is wrong and ineffective and destined to failure just because they're competing, too. I'd suggest that we see such an example right now in China, where I often see them getting dismissed a bit as though they're succeeding largely on the basis of population and their internal corruption and political system will hold them back in the end. Sure, they do have room for improvement (who doesn't), but being overly dismissive of others is a dangerous game.

Zonk, I think dictators are just politically charged, period. Heck, you only have to see the basket cases that often erupt after a dictator leaves power. Syria was a disaster. The problem is that democracy can work, but civil society needs to be strong and thriving and at a certain stage in its evolution so often it will fail when it's imposed on people who just aren't ready for it. In Russia's case, they clearly weren't ready for it. Putin has done a lot of things, some good, some bad, but the choice wasn't really between him and democracy, because democracy isn't a constant. Democracy in Russia was very quickly set upon by certain economic elites - it was basically capitalism in fast-forward. And while Putin definitely has his share of dirty tricks and anyone in opposition to him is going to have a terrible go of it, he has also had some successes, the choice is really between Putin and Democracy so much as it is between Putin and economic/regional oligarchs.

The thing with America is, there are other options, but nobody seems to be choosing them, least of all the political parties who almost universally side with their own equivalent of Russia's oligarchs - just ones who have outsourced their political influence through financial means. And then come in the populist politicians because the political establishment tries to sell Marco Rubio and Hillary Clinton as being for the people.

[dckingsfan]

I agree Nate let's move on.

For anyone asking, "to what end", here it is. Black Lives Matter has come forth with a list of demands.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-01/end-war-black-people-blacklivesmatter-demands-reparations-investments-political-powe

Full PDF is in the link

Here are the highlights from their list:

The demands are fairly extensive and call for, among many other things, the following for Black people: free and open access to all public universities, retroactive forgiveness of all student loan debt, passage of H.R. 40 to study a "Reparation Proposal for African Americans," removal of police from schools, retroactive decriminalization and release of all people held on drug and prostitution-related offenses and a restructuring of local, state and federal tax codes to achieve a "radical and sustainable redistribution of wealth."

This **** get more and more ridiculous every day

If that's accurate, they've officially become part of the problem. Some of their "demands" are to destroy things that are for everyone's benefit - including the people they claim to be helping. Throughout their existence, "Black Lives Matter" has suffered from poor leadership, and now they're just embarrassing themselves.

Well, at least they have moved past being a single cause, maybe they should merge it with this:
http://tinyurl.com/zfzqnd2

[dckingsfan]

Woof - when the federal government gets involved in loans it is just such a bad thing. First we had the housing bubble and now this. The federal government should be a watchdog for predatory lending and not a predatory lender.

http://tinyurl.com/jr7h3rp

[Zonkerbl]

I don't mean to stir up controversy really. We go around telling people that to be successful you need to be Democratic and Capitalist (to be precise, the government must actively protect property rights). Nevertheless, there are some examples of dictatorships that implemented capitalism successfully. You don't necessarily need Democracy for capitalism to work. Capitalism and Democracy are two entirely different things.

I don't see any reason for anyone to get riled up about it. It is what it is.

[Doug_Blew]

Woof - when the federal government gets involved in loans it is just such a bad thing. First we had the housing bubble and now this. The federal government should be a watchdog for predatory lending and not a predatory lender.

http://tinyurl.com/jr7h3rp

Didn't the housing bubble occur because of greed by the mortgage lenders and the fact that there was NOT any government oversight?

[Zonkerbl]

Woof - when the federal government gets involved in loans it is just such a bad thing. First we had the housing bubble and now this. The federal government should be a watchdog for predatory lending and not a predatory lender.

http://tinyurl.com/jr7h3rp

Didn't the housing bubble occur because of greed by the mortgage lenders and the fact that there was NOT any government oversight?

There were regulations that were in place that would have prevented the housing bubble but no one was enforcing them.

[dckingsfan]

Woof - when the federal government gets involved in loans it is just such a bad thing. First we had the housing bubble and now this. The federal government should be a watchdog for predatory lending and not a predatory lender.

http://tinyurl.com/jr7h3rp

Didn't the housing bubble occur because of greed by the mortgage lenders and the fact that there was NOT any government oversight?

No, actually it took the government + the lenders to create the fiasco. The government looked the other way because they were pushing the policy. The government offered a housing finance program without making an effort to maintain underwriting standards (or worse, intentionally looked the other way).

[tontoz]

Don't forget the ratings agencies:

Standard & Poor’s $1.5 billion settlement today will let the world’s biggest ratings company move beyond a bruising legal battle over the top grades it gave to subprime-mortgage bonds, though at a more painful price than those paid by big banks that assembled those securities.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-03/s-p-ends-legal-woes-with-1-5-billion-penalty-with-u-s-states