Orlando early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Smitty731/HowardMass)

[Colbinii]

Im surprised all the reviewers had Gordon starting at SF. I don't think he can shoot well enough to plY SF. I'd just dare him to beat me from outside as an opposing coach. I'd give him maybe a 15% chance to be the starting SF by the All-Star break.

hat's what opposing coaches already do, no matter what position he plays. Let me ask you this, can Jabari and Giannis shoot well enough to play SF or are they both PFs? Because they're all more or less on the same level if you look at their shooting stats. With the Magic its easier to get away with Gordon at SF because Ibaka and Vucevic are good shooters.

Jabari and Giannis can do a lot more offensively than Gordon.

[Golabki]

Im surprised all the reviewers had Gordon starting at SF. I don't think he can shoot well enough to plY SF. I'd just dare him to beat me from outside as an opposing coach. I'd give him maybe a 15% chance to be the starting SF by the All-Star break.

hat's what opposing coaches already do, no matter what position he plays. Let me ask you this, can Jabari and Giannis shoot well enough to play SF or are they both PFs? Because they're all more or less on the same level if you look at their shooting stats. With the Magic its easier to get away with Gordon at SF because Ibaka and Vucevic are good shooters.

Jabari and Giannis can do a lot more offensively than Gordon.

Jabari and gotdon also haven't shown they can play together in a line that is good.

Gordon is going to play SF because orlando blocked him at PF. He prbably shouldn't play there much but orlando, apparently thinks he should.

[wise1-2]

Im surprised all the reviewers had Gordon starting at SF. I don't think he can shoot well enough to plY SF. I'd just dare him to beat me from outside as an opposing coach. I'd give him maybe a 15% chance to be the starting SF by the All-Star break.

hat's what opposing coaches already do, no matter what position he plays. Let me ask you this, can Jabari and Giannis shoot well enough to play SF or are they both PFs? Because they're all more or less on the same level if you look at their shooting stats. With the Magic its easier to get away with Gordon at SF because Ibaka and Vucevic are good shooters.

Jabari and Giannis can do a lot more offensively than Gordon.

So its not about the shooting? Can you be more specific as to why they would work at SF, but Gordon is incapable? I get that with giannis you have the ball in his hands a lot, but there's only one ball. So, what does Parker do off the ball that makes him so much better than Gordon?

[Colbinii]

hat's what opposing coaches already do, no matter what position he plays. Let me ask you this, can Jabari and Giannis shoot well enough to play SF or are they both PFs? Because they're all more or less on the same level if you look at their shooting stats. With the Magic its easier to get away with Gordon at SF because Ibaka and Vucevic are good shooters.

Jabari and Giannis can do a lot more offensively than Gordon.

So its not about the shooting? Can you be more specific as to why they would work at SF, but Gordon is incapable? I get that with giannis you have the ball in his hands a lot, but there's only one ball. So, what does Parker do off the ball that makes him so much better than Gordon?

I never said that Gordon can't play the 3. I was just saying that Parker and Giannis have better offensive games currently. Parker was fantastic at making cuts and reading defenses in the second half of last year. I haven't seen Gordon play enough to make a call, but I know he wasn't as good as Parker was off-ball. It will be nice to see if Gordon has improved off-ball, because that is going to be where his strengths should be on offense, if he has any.

[jazzfan1971]

Well, part of my problem with Gordon is that I decided he didn't have touch when he was a draft prospect. I also pondered if touch was something hardwired, that no amount of time in the gym would develop.

So, I sort of see him through that paradigm.

But, it's possible that I am/was entirely wrong about him.

But, given my biases, when I compare him to Parker as a shooter I see Parker hitting free throws and mid range jumpers as a respectable clip. That leads me to believe that his 3pt shot is a work in progress. Gordon's FT and mid range %es are terrible. So, I don't have much hope of him becoming a good shooter from any range given that and also my pre-existing bias against him as a shooter.

[pacers33granger]

Overall the off season seems to rely on the young guys taking a step (which is a good move imo). Hiring Vogel was a good step here.

There's no way I can get behind the free agent signings of Green/Augustin and trading for Meeks though.

Green is the new Josh Smith. Guy who theoretically can do it all but is deficient everywhere. Hennigan got him on a one year deal so it's whatever rally but he's not good.

Meeks just seemed like a waste. Again hrs expiring, but I don't even expect him to play so why waste the space.

Augustin is at best a mediocre backup and that's it.

Overall it's not a huge hindrance but that's max space wasted on 3 bench players, none of which should have ever contributed to winning throughout their careers.

I get pushing the window out and not blocking young guys (love most of the prospects on the team) but so odd grabbing the guys they did.

i cant get behind Augustin or Meeks either. Green i can see. He is an emergency starter if AG at SF doesnt work out. otherwise, he is a bench player to provide depth. Was $15mil high, yes. But we dont know what other offers he had. I dont know how he is in the locker room, so i dont know if that was a target thing too. Hennigan has seemed to pay a bit more for some vets, i believe so that they dont cause waves in the locker room if they arent starting. This could be the case here too. I also cant get behind the Green = Smith comparison. Maybe i havent seen enough of him, but i dont remember watching Green shoot his team out of games, something i have seen Smith do.

I meant that Green is another guy who has all the tools and teams think will put it together, but never does and is rarely, if ever, conducive to winning. Like I said, it's whatever since it's a 1 year deal and I get the idea behind it. I haven't heard anything bad about his lockerroom presence, so he may help there. He's fine as a stopgap for where Orlando is, but I personally would have put the money elsewhere.

And I forgot to mention I loved the Ibaka trade (for both sides). Not sure why so many feel it was an overpay. Sure Ibaka had a down year, but so did Dipo and both need to be paid next offseason. And the pick was used to bridge the gap for the difference in value of a SG who can't consistently hit 3s for a shot blocking stretch big.

[wise1-2]

Jabari and Giannis can do a lot more offensively than Gordon.

So its not about the shooting? Can you be more specific as to why they would work at SF, but Gordon is incapable? I get that with giannis you have the ball in his hands a lot, but there's only one ball. So, what does Parker do off the ball that makes him so much better than Gordon?

I never said that Gordon can't play the 3. I was just saying that Parker and Giannis have better offensive games currently. Parker was fantastic at making cuts and reading defenses in the second half of last year. I haven't seen Gordon play enough to make a call, but I know he wasn't as good as Parker was off-ball. It will be nice to see if Gordon has improved off-ball, because that is going to be where his strengths should be on offense, if he has any.

You quoted a post asking why he couldn't play small forward and you said he just isn't as good offensively. Why did you feel the need to say that then? I wasn't even comparing their offensive games as a whole. I was clearly only talking about shooting since I was replying to Jazzfan saying he can't play that position because he can't shoot.

Gordon averaged 14 PPG per 36. Where do you think those points came from if you think he's so horrible offensively? Gordon does Play off the ball and has a good amount of potential to play with the ball in his hands. He has the court vision and handles, but clearly you haven't seen enough of Gordon.

[wise1-2]

Well, part of my problem with Gordon is that I decided he didn't have touch when he was a draft prospect. I also pondered if touch was something hardwired, that no amount of time in the gym would develop.

So, I sort of see him through that paradigm.

But, it's possible that I am/was entirely wrong about him.

But, given my biases, when I compare him to Parker as a shooter I see Parker hitting free throws and mid range jumpers as a respectable clip. That leads me to believe that his 3pt shot is a work in progress. Gordon's FT and mid range %es are terrible. So, I don't have much hope of him becoming a good shooter from any range given that and also my pre-existing bias against him as a shooter.

Well no one is saying he's going to be a great shooter, but I do think he'll be decent. Did/does Draymond Green have a great touch? Did he not improve his shooting touch in the league? Gordon's shooting percentages really aren't that terrible compared to Giannis and Parker for example. He's a 68% career FT shooter, which is great considering he was a 42% shooter in college, so there's significant progress being made. He's no Kenneth Faried.

[Colbinii]

You quoted a post asking why he couldn't play small forward and you said he just isn't as good offensively.

Well, he isn't as good offensively as those players.

Why did you feel the need to say that then?

Because just because you can't shoot doesn't mean you can't play SF. However, if you can't shoot and play SF, you better bring something else to the table, which Giannis and Parker do.

I wasn't even comparing their offensive games as a whole.

I know, but he is similar to Parker.

I was clearly only talking about shooting since I was replying to Jazzfan saying he can't play that position because he can't shoot.

My bad.

Gordon averaged 14 PPG per 36. Where do you think those points came from if you think he's so horrible offensively?

He gets them at the rim. 45% of his shots he took were at the rim. He took far too many from 3 (25% of his shots).

Gordon does Play off the ball and has a good amount of potential to play with the ball in his hands. He has the court vision and handles, but clearly you haven't seen enough of Gordon.

He can make plays because he is a natural athlete, but I don't think he is ever going to be a teams top playmakers or ball handler.

[wise1-2]

You quoted a post asking why he couldn't play small forward and you said he just isn't as good offensively.

Well, he isn't as good offensively as those players.

Why did you feel the need to say that then?

Because just because you can't shoot doesn't mean you can't play SF. However, if you can't shoot and play SF, you better bring something else to the table, which Giannis and Parker do.

I wasn't even comparing their offensive games as a whole.

I know, but he is similar to Parker.

I was clearly only talking about shooting since I was replying to Jazzfan saying he can't play that position because he can't shoot.

My bad.

Gordon averaged 14 PPG per 36. Where do you think those points came from if you think he's so horrible offensively?

He gets them at the rim. 45% of his shots he took were at the rim. He took far too many from 3 (25% of his shots).

Gordon does Play off the ball and has a good amount of potential to play with the ball in his hands. He has the court vision and handles, but clearly you haven't seen enough of Gordon.

He can make plays because he is a natural athlete, but I don't think he is ever going to be a teams top playmakers or ball handler.

Yes, and Jabari took 46% of his shots at the rim, but he was a good off the ball player. What I meant is if you think Gordon's not that good of an off the ball scorer, how is it he only averages 2 less points per 36 mpg?

And yes Gordon shot a good amount of threes. The coaches see his potential and the hard work he's putting in to improve that shot. He shot more of those than long range 2 pt shots. Which is exactly what you want him to do anyway. 70% of his shots coming at the rim or from three is a great thing. Those are the two most efficient shots in the NBA. His 30% 3pt shooting last year is still as efficient as 45% shooting on long range 2pt shots. By no means efficient, but not terrible.

[Skin]

The Ibaka trade was extremely lopsided. I predict he'll walk in about 11 months as well, and the only way of preventing him from deserting is probably to give him a 5-year max next summer, which is equally outrageous.

I appreciate that they got themselves rid of the garbage coach that is Scott Skiles.

But if a team like Toronto signs Ibaka for the max then it's not outrageous. amirite?

[HartfordWhalers]

The Ibaka trade was extremely lopsided. I predict he'll walk in about 11 months as well, and the only way of preventing him from deserting is probably to give him a 5-year max next summer, which is equally outrageous.

I appreciate that they got themselves rid of the garbage coach that is Scott Skiles.

But if a team like Toronto signs Ibaka for the max then it's not outrageous. amirite?

A max Ibaka shouldn't be outrageous. If I am Boston, a max Ibaka to pair with Horford might be my backup plan and I don't lose sleep over it. I don't see a good avenue for Toronto to get max cap space easily for next year.

[Skin]

The misplaced faith in elfrid Payton is quite strange. If it came to breaking up that backcourt I'd have favored oladipo over Payton and done a trade for a shooter instead of pursuing Ibaka before his payday. The Ibaka trade, along with not upgrading pg and insisting on using Gordon at sf is likely to blow up soon with horrid spacing issues.

Ibaka is a good shooter when he gets time to lock and load alongside Durant and Westbrook but here he is likely to get a ton of contested looks and struggle as a mediocre shooter.

Vucevic can make mid range shots but cannot stretch his range to three, Payton and Gordon are hopeless even from midrange so sooner or later they're forced to start hezonja and hope he is ready while moving Gordon to the bench and praying Meeks is healthy.

I do love the Fournier signing, so there's that. This is overall a 38 win team.

It's not that the Magic valued Payton over Oladipo. It's that Oladipo's trade value was higher and the Magic had an in-house replacement for him in Fournier. It was a rebalancing of assets. Interior defense has been a major weakness ever since Dwight left. There are not many fitting compliments to Vucevic in the entire league. It takes a unicorn. How many PFs in the league can give you defense and stretch the floor? ...and how many of them are available? Once OKC put Ibaka on the block, it was go time for Hennigan.

I've probably posted in every Ibaka trade thread in this forum trying to throw trade ideas out that OKC fans would like. ...and yes, I have been shutdown with Oladipo and stuff for Ibaka offers from their fans in the past. But it's funny ya know... now that it's happened, all of a sudden the Magic got robbed. I find that ironic.

The Magic have players that can drive and kick out to Ibaka and Vucevic is among the better passing Centers in the league. Last season, Vucevic assisted on 16 percent of Orlando's hoops while on the floor. Only five centers racked up more potential assists, per SportVU tracking data. Something that's not said about Ibaka is that he may actually step out of KD and WB's shadow and show he's a better player than the complimentary role he had in OKC.

[Skin]

The Ibaka trade was extremely lopsided. I predict he'll walk in about 11 months as well, and the only way of preventing him from deserting is probably to give him a 5-year max next summer, which is equally outrageous.

I appreciate that they got themselves rid of the garbage coach that is Scott Skiles.

But if a team like Toronto signs Ibaka for the max then it's not outrageous. amirite?

A max Ibaka shouldn't be outrageous. If I am Boston, a max Ibaka to pair with Horford might be my backup plan and I don't lose sleep over it. I don't see a good avenue for Toronto to get max cap space easily for next year.

Yup, I'm sure Boston would love to get their hands on Ibaka, as would most teams in the league. It's ridiculous to say signing him would be outrageous. He's one of the most unique talents in the game and in his prime.

[Texas Chuck]

It's not that the Magic valued Payton over Oladipo. It's that Oladipo's trade value was higher and the Magic had an in-house replacement for him in Fournier. It was a rebalancing of assets. Interior defense has been a major weakness ever since Dwight left. There are not many fitting compliments to Vucevic in the entire league. It takes a unicorn. How many PFs in the league can give you defense and stretch the floor? ...and how many of them are available? Once OKC put Ibaka on the block, it was go time for Hennigan.

I think this is a great summary of the Dipo/Ibaka trade. And while I'm not sure Skin would agree with me that they slightly overpaid in that deal--its clear he understands that if Ibaka is the perfect fitting piece, you don't lose him by being cheap. And I think it goes without saying that OKC doesn't do the deal with Payton instead of Dipo.

Now if the Magic can get off to a decent start, I could see them turning around and making the PG move we wanted them to make this summer, during the season. I can see Miami struggling and wanting to replace some of the assets they have surrendered in recent years. A deal for Dragic using the Green contract to facilitate makes a ton of sense to me for both teams(yes I know any Heat fans reading this strongly disagree). Payton as a backup PG for a year or two is pretty attractive and by then Orlando can decide if they want to pay big bucks to retain him or not. Give him the apprenticeship guys like Reggie Jackson, Eric Bledsoe, Dennis Schroeder all got. It's still not too late.

[Skin]

Way to bring in a ringer! You're going to have a hard time topping that guest slot...

Best move: hiring Vogel. Will be able to maintain the Magic's defensive vision without the sandpaper personality. Getting Fournier for less than the max, in a year when good-shooting guards got a fortune, was great too. And I for one liked the Ibaka trade when it was made.

Worst move: Hennigan doesn't always seem to know how to value FAs from other teams. It feels like at least once a year he overpays someone for no good reason (Ben Gordon, Jason Smith, now Jeff Green). But to me the worst was Biyombo.

Last year this guy couldn't get the QO or the MLE because of his offensive woes. Now he's getting $17M AAV? He's not as terrible on offense as he was, but he's still not very good...and that's going to be even more magnified in Orlando. (If four of their starters are Biyombo/Ibaka/Gordon/Payton, then the fifth one had better be prime Ray Allen. Otherwise that offense is going to gum up very quickly again. And that could mean Vuc has to start which makes Biyombo a VERY expensive backup.)

Hopefully I'm wrong and Vogel makes this all work. I'm just worried that the Magic got Jerome Jamesed.

Mixed bag for the Magic. Somewhere in the B-/C+ range for me, mostly because I like Vogel so much.

Every move the Magic made was to support Vogel. It's weird to think someone would put separation between Vogel and the moves the Magic made. Vogel is a defensive centric coach. He needed the horses. Inheriting Nikola Vucevic, Jason Smith, Andrew Nicholson and even Aaron Gordon at PF (who has difficulty defending bigs) required a MAJOR upgrade for Vogel to implement his system. The Magic didn't sign a fourth traditional big; if Vucevic, Biyombo, and Ibaka combine for something like 80 minutes per game -- say 30 apiece for the starters, and 20 for the backup center -- that would still leave 16 minutes for small ball with Gordon at power forward. Biyombo's main skillsets are defense and rebounding. He's not gonna stop giving that. He got less than a 31 year old, broken down Noah. I can't believe people are still shocked by the sticker prices of NBA FAs. Plus, he's already spoken of how excited he is to be able to play with his Congo brother, Ibaka.

Green is strictly a backup on a one-year deal and allows ORL to keep their cap flexibility going into next summer. Those guys you mentioned, Gordon, Smith, Green... I can name more, Ridnour, Ronnie Price, Willie Green, Jason Maxiell.... all veterans who played a back up role and provided experience that the Magic's youngsters lacked. None of whom created a lockerroom fuss or prevented the Magic from moving on quickly after them.

Even Augustin was handpicked by Vogel who had him in Indiana.

[Skin]

It's not that the Magic valued Payton over Oladipo. It's that Oladipo's trade value was higher and the Magic had an in-house replacement for him in Fournier. It was a rebalancing of assets. Interior defense has been a major weakness ever since Dwight left. There are not many fitting compliments to Vucevic in the entire league. It takes a unicorn. How many PFs in the league can give you defense and stretch the floor? ...and how many of them are available? Once OKC put Ibaka on the block, it was go time for Hennigan.

I think this is a great summary of the Dipo/Ibaka trade. And while I'm not sure Skin would agree with me that they slightly overpaid in that deal--its clear he understands that if Ibaka is the perfect fitting piece, you don't lose him by being cheap. And I think it goes without saying that OKC doesn't do the deal with Payton instead of Dipo.

Now if the Magic can get off to a decent start, I could see them turning around and making the PG move we wanted them to make this summer, during the season. I can see Miami struggling and wanting to replace some of the assets they have surrendered in recent years. A deal for Dragic using the Green contract to facilitate makes a ton of sense to me for both teams(yes I know any Heat fans reading this strongly disagree). Payton as a backup PG for a year or two is pretty attractive and by then Orlando can decide if they want to pay big bucks to retain him or not. Give him the apprenticeship guys like Reggie Jackson, Eric Bledsoe, Dennis Schroeder all got. It's still not too late.

I would agree that there was a slight overpay because I didn't think the Magic should've given up 12. But I also know that Oladipo alone wasn't enough. I might have even preferred giving up Payton over 12. But it's clear that OKC never needed a PG and rightfully chose Sabonis. I get the risk that the Magic took, but I don't see that as a sign of a weak GM.

[Skin]

Somehow I have a feeling that they are going to love playing with each other on the same team. In fact, they might build an identity and relationship that will be key to keeping Ibaka in ORL.

The Magic added 1200 rebounds and nearly 300 blocks between their acquisitions of Ibaka and Biyombo. To put that into perspective, the Magic totaled 3552 REBs and 417 BLKs last season. If you subtract Dedmon, Smith and Nicholson's numbers and replaced them with Ibaka and Biyombo's stats, then the Magic would have totaled 4104 REBs and 584 BLKs. Good for #1 in both categories in the entire NBA last season.

“We always tried to have two rim protectors in Indiana, so we played 48 minutes with shot blocking,” said Vogel, a former Pacers coach. “And, now, if we want, we can play 48 minutes with the ability to switch at the big position as well, making us versatile enough to be elite as a defensive unit in today’s NBA.”

“Biz is a guy that’s going to come in and help us establish this identity that has been successful for me in Indiana that we want to bring here: a defensive-minded group that doesn’t just commit to that end of the floor but has talent on that end of the floor and has that ability,” Vogel said.

“The ability to have bigs that can not only protect the rim but switch out and guard smaller offensive players and smaller guards is a very, very important attribute to building a great defense. We feel like Biz is one of the best in the league. It’s that simple.”

“As we’ve watched Biz and studied Biz, he plays with an infectious winning spirit and a competitive spirit,” Hennigan said.

[loserX]

Every move the Magic made was to support Vogel. It's weird to think someone would put separation between Vogel and the moves the Magic made. Vogel is a defensive centric coach. He needed the horses. Inheriting Nikola Vucevic, Jason Smith, Andrew Nicholson and even Aaron Gordon at PF (who has difficulty defending bigs) required a MAJOR upgrade for Vogel to implement his system. The Magic didn't sign a fourth traditional big; if Vucevic, Biyombo, and Ibaka combine for something like 80 minutes per game -- say 30 apiece for the starters, and 20 for the backup center -- that would still leave 16 minutes for small ball with Gordon at power forward. Biyombo's main skillsets are defense and rebounding. He's not gonna stop giving that. He got less than a 31 year old, broken down Noah. I can't believe people are still shocked by the sticker prices of NBA FAs.

My feeling is that Biyombo is not going to be your starting C very often; his offensive skillset is so limited that you won't be able to play him a lot of minutes with Ibaka/Gordon/Payton/whoever, because that's not a strong offensive lineup at this point either. So if you're right and he only plays 20 minutes per game, I like that $17M/yr contract even less.

Noah and Mozgov got ghastly contracts, but at least they got ghastly contracts to (presumably) be starters.

Like I said, last year Biyombo couldn't even get the MLE. Now he's getting $70M, so he'd better be making a Whiteside-like leap forward on the court. I have no problem with Orlando looking for a rim protector at C...but I don't like the valuation and Vogel is going to have his work cut out for him.

Green is strictly a backup on a one-year deal and allows ORL to keep their cap flexibility going into next summer. Those guys you mentioned, Gordon, Smith, Green... I can name more, Ridnour, Ronnie Price, Willie Green, Jason Maxiell.... all veterans who played a back up role and provided experience that the Magic's youngsters lacked. None of whom created a lockerroom fuss or prevented the Magic from moving on quickly after them.

Never said I had a problem with the players. It just seems like Hennigan picks one to randomly overpay every year. You're right that they are just short-term hits but there still isn't really any reason to do it.

[Shady Franchise]

Orlando constantly makes head scratching moves. Why Meeks? Why 17/year for Biyombo? Why trade away a good young asset (and a lottery pick) for one that's been fading, especially when you're nowhere near a championship? Why 4 years for DJ? Why one year, $15 million for Jeff Green, especially so early in free agency? Who exactly was Orlando bidding against for Biyombo, DJ, and Green?

This year they'll fail, then spend a couple of years undoing these moves, and start again. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. I give them a D.

To be fair all those head scratching moves usually work out well for them. Meeks is not worth mentioning. Biyombo's contract isn't that bad considering back up centres are getting paid 15 mill/yr. They need that burst of energy (wake up a dead arena), defense and toughness from him. Definitely a better investment for them than Tobias. DJ's contract isn't bad. He fills a need. Jeff green was a one year deal. Overpaid, but justified and unlikely to negatively affect them.

Rex, you're talking about 1 season's moves here to support your argument that they constantly make head scratching moves. Then you say that they have been at the bottom of their division for the past 4 years because of these head scratching moves. It's a rebuild. Not too many teams turn things around completely, and I mean completely, in 3 years or less. Stop trying to troll. You're horrible at it.