Welcome Okafor: Thread 2

[spikeslovechild]

Who's more irrational? The guy that thinks Okafor is either some combination of Carmelo Anthony and Marc Gasol, or even Karl Malone. Or the guy who says his ceiling is Brook Lopez. A solid veteran who has played 9 years in the league and averaged 18 ppg in the NBA. It's surprising to me that the sentiment here is that Brook Lopez is an insult to Okafor.

It's important to note like I mentioned earlier when I was trashed for making the comparison that it isn't just me who made it -- it was also coach Brown.

It's also important to realize that you know Okafor was 19 last year and players don't come out of VATs ready to order. They have to put the work in. Malone didn't either. Would you have traded him after his rookie year?

As far as Brock goes I think you could certainly look at him as his floor but I don't see how you can view him as Okafor ceiling. Okafor is almost there offensively and his defense and rebounding isn't much worse if at all. So basically what you are saying from age 19 to age 28 which where Brock is now you expect a little but not much improvement from Okafor.

I also find it strange that you mention Karl Malone jumpshot then bring in Lopez. Lopez isn't really a back to the basket player. Sure he gets a ton of points 0-3 feet but alot of those are on cuts, running transition, pick and rolls, and putbacks. Okafor is much more explosive in the post with his quick feet.

[Arsenal]

Yeah in looking at the stats, Karl Malone really wasn't much more impressive as a 22 year old rookie compared to Okafor who was 19/20. Better in some areas, worse in others. Terrible advanced stats. Gives hope for Okafor to improve.

I really think getting his body into supreme shape (ala Malone) is the key. A lot of his deficiencies will go away if he has more energy to expend, as they appear to be effort/endurance related.

Up until now he's always been the most dominant player in his entire class, so there wasn't a huge need for him to get into killer shape. I doubt he's ever been questioned/denigrated as much as he is now in his entire life. Let's see how he responds to the challenge.

[Ericb5]

Yeah in looking at the stats, Karl Malone really wasn't much more impressive as a 22 year old rookie compared to Okafor who was 19/20. Better in some areas, worse in others. Terrible advanced stats. Gives hope for Okafor to improve.

I really think getting his body into supreme shape (ala Malone) is the key. A lot of his deficiencies will go away if he has more energy to expend, as they appear to be effort/endurance related.

Up until now he's always been the most dominant player in his entire class, so there wasn't a huge need for him to get into killer shape. I doubt he's ever been questioned/denigrated as much as he is now in his entire life. Let's see how he responds to the challenge.

Malone also played with one of the greatest point guards in NBA history. That made things a lot easier for him.

Ultimately, the key point with Okafor is that he will have to improve in a lot of areas. I think that he has a track record of being able to improve his skills, and he has a real offensive gift, that will surely improve over time.

I think he should have this upcoming season, and the one after that to prove how much he can improve. There is no reason to ditch him before he is given that chance. I especially wouldn't trade him for pennies on the dollar now.

[Sixerscan]

I'm so bored with okafor debates at this point.

[Duke4life831]

Idk, I actually believe he boxes out too much - I used to comment on it often, but also he has a low percentage of 'free' rebounds (50.1%) and everyone rebounds better with him than with Noel even though they both individually rebound the same percentage when the other isn't on the court. I'm also not sure if he's lazy chasing rebounds either given his chase rebound percentage, it's actually quite high (29.7%). Biggest issue seems to be scrapping for rebounds and not knowing where the ball is going to bounce off, has a low winning rebound percentage (35.1%).

Can compare those numbers to rest of the league here - https://nyloncalculus.com/stats/detailed-nba-rebounding-stats/

Is there a metric around that shows the OREB% of the opponent team with Okafor on the court vs. Okafor off the court? Mentioned it all the time, he boxed his opponent out and a teammate grabbed the easy board.

Defensive rebounding percentage with Okafor 74.6%, without 73.7.

Total Rebound percentage with Okafor 47.8%, without 45.6. (So, 2.2 more rebounds per 100 possessions when Okafor is on the court)

So the numbers show he actually helps his team rebound. And if he just went after the free rebounds his rebounding wouldnt be considered a weakness. So basically his rebounding issues are mostly cosmetic. Grabbing easy free rebounds to pad his stats wouldnt make him a better rebounder.

[LloydFree]

Who's more irrational? The guy that thinks Okafor is either some combination of Carmelo Anthony and Marc Gasol, or even Karl Malone. Or the guy who says his ceiling is Brook Lopez. A solid veteran who has played 9 years in the league and averaged 18 ppg in the NBA. It's surprising to me that the sentiment here is that Brook Lopez is an insult to Okafor.

It's important to note like I mentioned earlier when I was trashed for making the comparison that it isn't just me who made it -- it was also coach Brown.

It's also important to realize that you know Okafor was 19 last year and players don't come out of VATs ready to order. They have to put the work in. Malone didn't either. Would you have traded him after his rookie year?

As far as Brook goes I think you could certainly look at him as his floor but I don't see how you can view him as Okafor ceiling. Okafor is almost there offensively and his defense and rebounding isn't much worse if at all. So basically what you are saying from age 19 to age 28 which where Brook is now you expect a little but not much improvement from Okafor.

I also find it strange that you mention Karl Malone jumpshot then bring in Lopez. Lopez isn't really a back to the basket player. Sure he gets a ton of points 0-3 feet but alot of those are on cuts, running transition, pick and rolls, and putbacks. Okafor is much more explosive in the post with his quick feet.

Two things.
1. Okafor isn't 19 and last year was his age 20 season.
2. Brook Lopez had a better age 20 season than Okafor's age 20 season. Lopez was better than Okafor at 20, but you think it's a foregone conclusion Okafor will be better than him as he gets older.

As I've said a hundred times before: Guys that come into the league as bad rebounders and rim protectors generally stay that way their whole career. Those are skills that don't improve dramatically, like shooting. You believe he will improve. I believe he needs to improve dramatically, but the things he needs to improve tend to be things that don't improve dramatically.

[CoreyGallagher]

So the numbers show he actually helps his team rebound. And if he just went after the free rebounds his rebounding wouldnt be considered a weakness. So basically his rebounding issues are mostly cosmetic. Grabbing easy free rebounds to pad his stats wouldnt make him a better rebounder.

Yes, we rebound better as a team with him. Free rebounds are basically any rebound that is gathered without an opposing player within a vicinity. I regularly commented on the fact that Okafor didn't seem to look to rebound as much as he looked for a man to box out. There could be other reasons as well such as simply dumb luck that rebounds weren't falling into his lap to being less aware of where to be when shots were missed to teams simply knowing that we weren't talented enough to make them pay (by pushing fast breaks) so they crashed the offensive boards instead of getting back on defense - more sample will provide clarity.

[76ciology]

Jah is more mobile than BroLo. BroLo is a better rim protector than Jah. BroLo is an underrated big (makes his team better ON BOTH ENDS by big margin) and if we can have a mobile version of him with Jah, Im totally OK with that.

[Ericb5]

Who's more irrational? The guy that thinks Okafor is either some combination of Carmelo Anthony and Marc Gasol, or even Karl Malone. Or the guy who says his ceiling is Brook Lopez. A solid veteran who has played 9 years in the league and averaged 18 ppg in the NBA. It's surprising to me that the sentiment here is that Brook Lopez is an insult to Okafor.

The Brook Lopez guy is crazier.

You are neck deep in that BS that you can't get out

For the record, I backed out of the Gasol comparison defensively, and he conveniently ignores that. I change it to Aldridge defensively.

I stand by Okafor having the ability to reach the Melo level offensively.

[eagereyez]

Complete analysis of Okafor's offense
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/7/28/12310140/jahlil-okafor-offensive-video-analysis-sixers

And his defense
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/7/29/12317906/okafor-defense-video-analysis

I don't think either of Noel/Okafor fit with this team long-term. The dream has always been Embiid at center, and neither Okafor/Noel have shown that they can play PF. If Embiid is healthy, both of them are gone.

[lotto29]

Complete analysis of Okafor's offense
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/7/28/12310140/jahlil-okafor-offensive-video-analysis-sixers

And his defense
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/7/29/12317906/okafor-defense-video-analysis

I don't think either of Noel/Okafor fit with this team long-term. The dream has always been Embiid at center, and neither Okafor/Noel have shown that they can play PF. If Embiid is healthy, both of them are gone.

Yep, that shouldn't be even a discussion. Neither of them can maximize or augment Embiid strengths.

[Johnstarks]

Okafor has very little range, he's a bad passer, a walking turnover, a non rebounder, and a poor defender. From a position where rebounding and defense is absolutely critical.

He doesn't have the foot speed or range to play power forward so you're basically hoping and praying he goes from being a terrible defender to a good one. And you already have noel and embiid at center. I just don't get it.

No other teams seem interested in okafor. If he was shaq on offense it would be one thing but offensive skills from the center position aren't important enough to just ignore defensive deficiencies

[CoreyGallagher]

Okafor has very little range, he's a bad passer, a walking turnover, a non rebounder, and a poor defender. From a position where rebounding and defense is absolutely critical.

I'm quoting this in the Okafor thread to return discussion. (EDIT: Actually moving this string to that thread)

You can make arguments for some of what you listed, but a walking turnover? 12.5 TO% is quite good, especially for a rookie. Noel's turnover percentages were 16.2 and 18.7, for instance.

[Johnstarks]

Yeah you're right i guess I was looking at his poor ast/to ratio. I just don't think having a high usage big man is a good idea anymore in the nba. It becomes very difficult to create efficient offense when you're pounding it inside between the turnovers and missed shots

[thenbaman]

I will never understand what all the hype around okafor is aboit. As if his rookie year wasn't disappointing enough... embiid has awesome potential and noel looks like a future stud. Itd be crazy to give up on those guys for a middling prospect like okafor

Lets see disappointing.

Okafor 17.5 points 7 rebounds 1.2 ast. 1.2 blocks 50.8 field goal%
Kristaps 14.3 points 7.3 rebounds 1.3ast 1.9 42.1 field goal% ?

Disappointing

[Johnstarks]

Well porzingis is a defensive monster who is still growing on the offensive end. He's also got the ability to play from the perimeter which Okafor doesn't have. Porzingis is a future potential mvp candidate. He's the type of big that you build around in the modern nba.

Embiid is a potential defensive monster who will be good in the PNR. Hes got DeAndre jordan tyou game with more polish. He's the type of big you build around in the modern nba.

Okafor is a post player in a league that has made rule changes that have limited the effectiveness of postplay. He could probably guard other big men alright, but he struggles defending guards and wings which is of utmost importance in the nba now

[eagereyez]

Complete analysis of Okafor's offense
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/7/28/12310140/jahlil-okafor-offensive-video-analysis-sixers

And his defense
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/7/29/12317906/okafor-defense-video-analysis

I don't think either of Noel/Okafor fit with this team long-term. The dream has always been Embiid at center, and neither Okafor/Noel have shown that they can play PF. If Embiid is healthy, both of them are gone.

Yep, that shouldn't be even a discussion. Neither of them can maximize or augment Embiid strengths.

That being said if Embiid isn't healthy then Noel is definitely the keeper. If you want to build a championship caliber basketball team, well then..

[spikeslovechild]

Okafor has very little range, he's a bad passer, a walking turnover, a non rebounder, and a poor defender. From a position where rebounding and defense is absolutely critical.

I'm quoting this in the Okafor thread to return discussion. (EDIT: Actually moving this string to that thread)

You can make arguments for some of what you listed, but a walking turnover? 12.5 TO% is quite good, especially for a rookie. Noel's turnover percentages were 16.2 and 18.7, for instance.

Agreed.

What makes those numbers even more impressive is what he was doing on offense mainly being forced to hold onto the ball and create opportunities for himself.

It seems some people here grasp at anything real or imaginary to try and tear him down. I don't get it.

[spikeslovechild]

Complete analysis of Okafor's offense
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/7/28/12310140/jahlil-okafor-offensive-video-analysis-sixers

And his defense
http://www.libertyballers.com/2016/7/29/12317906/okafor-defense-video-analysis

I don't think either of Noel/Okafor fit with this team long-term. The dream has always been Embiid at center, and neither Okafor/Noel have shown that they can play PF. If Embiid is healthy, both of them are gone.

I don't need to get knee deep into the analysis to show that Okafor defense wasn't very good most of last season. It's like Libertyballers is arguing with itself at times.

What I would like them to attempt to refute is what I've been saying is that defense will get better. In fact, much of what they show are correctable. They mention him not being decisive. I agree. I think one of the major reasons why he looks much slower on defense then offense is because he is reacting and thinking on defensive end. That is one area that he can definitely improve.

Other reasons include trusting his teammates. Conditioning. Going after rebounds on the defensive end. Putting the effort in on the defensive end night in and night out.

He'll have spurts where he is really good and dominate individual matchups. Lopez is a good example. He needs to show up every night. Not just when Lopez is playing or Towns or the big names.

[Kirk Van Houten]

Yeah you're right i guess I was looking at his poor ast/to ratio. I just don't think having a high usage big man is a good idea anymore in the nba. It becomes very difficult to create efficient offense when you're pounding it inside between the turnovers and missed shots

But he hits 50% of those shots....

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