Orlando early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Smitty731/HowardMass)

[Skin]

Every move the Magic made was to support Vogel. It's weird to think someone would put separation between Vogel and the moves the Magic made. Vogel is a defensive centric coach. He needed the horses. Inheriting Nikola Vucevic, Jason Smith, Andrew Nicholson and even Aaron Gordon at PF (who has difficulty defending bigs) required a MAJOR upgrade for Vogel to implement his system. The Magic didn't sign a fourth traditional big; if Vucevic, Biyombo, and Ibaka combine for something like 80 minutes per game -- say 30 apiece for the starters, and 20 for the backup center -- that would still leave 16 minutes for small ball with Gordon at power forward. Biyombo's main skillsets are defense and rebounding. He's not gonna stop giving that. He got less than a 31 year old, broken down Noah. I can't believe people are still shocked by the sticker prices of NBA FAs.

My feeling is that Biyombo is not going to be your starting C very often; his offensive skillset is so limited that you won't be able to play him a lot of minutes with Ibaka/Gordon/Payton/whoever, because that's not a strong offensive lineup at this point either. So if you're right and he only plays 20 minutes per game, I like that $17M/yr contract even less.

Noah and Mozgov got ghastly contracts, but at least they got ghastly contracts to (presumably) be starters.

Like I said, last year Biyombo couldn't even get the MLE. Now he's getting $70M, so he'd better be making a Whiteside-like leap forward on the court. I have no problem with Orlando looking for a rim protector at C...but I don't like the valuation and Vogel is going to have his work cut out for him.

Green is strictly a backup on a one-year deal and allows ORL to keep their cap flexibility going into next summer. Those guys you mentioned, Gordon, Smith, Green... I can name more, Ridnour, Ronnie Price, Willie Green, Jason Maxiell.... all veterans who played a back up role and provided experience that the Magic's youngsters lacked. None of whom created a lockerroom fuss or prevented the Magic from moving on quickly after them.

Never said I had a problem with the players. It just seems like Hennigan picks one to randomly overpay every year. You're right that they are just short-term hits but there still isn't really any reason to do it.

Offensive skills are not a priority for starting Centers. If it were, Vucevic would be a hot trade commodity. If you prioritize that, how about a Vucevic for Gobert swap? Gobert, DeAndre, R. Lopez, Bogut, Noah, Dwight, Steven Adams... all starters better known for their defense than offense. All worth a big price tag. You know who's better known for their offense? Brook Lopez, Nik Vucevic...

It matters nothing that Biyombo earned himself a bigger payday than last year. He was Toronto's best defender against Lebron in the playoffs. How many teams can say that about their Centers? His ability to defend is rare. He earned his new contract. He's entering his prime and has coveted skills. ORL didn't set his price tag. The market did when NYK paid Noah and LAL paid Mozgov.

The reason for bringing in vets is to provide depth. When you have a young team, you need to be careful about the type of vets your surround them with. If you're trying to develop lottery picks, you don't do it by signing a guy that will steal a lot of minutes from them or appear like the future at the position. Hennigan has hand picked vets that have been survivors in the NBA. Who have found a way to carve a niche in the NBA. You can provide veteran leadership and mentoring the young minds. They are not starting quality vets for a reason, but can hold their own in spot minutes.

[wise1-2]

Every move the Magic made was to support Vogel. It's weird to think someone would put separation between Vogel and the moves the Magic made. Vogel is a defensive centric coach. He needed the horses. Inheriting Nikola Vucevic, Jason Smith, Andrew Nicholson and even Aaron Gordon at PF (who has difficulty defending bigs) required a MAJOR upgrade for Vogel to implement his system. The Magic didn't sign a fourth traditional big; if Vucevic, Biyombo, and Ibaka combine for something like 80 minutes per game -- say 30 apiece for the starters, and 20 for the backup center -- that would still leave 16 minutes for small ball with Gordon at power forward. Biyombo's main skillsets are defense and rebounding. He's not gonna stop giving that. He got less than a 31 year old, broken down Noah. I can't believe people are still shocked by the sticker prices of NBA FAs.

My feeling is that Biyombo is not going to be your starting C very often; his offensive skillset is so limited that you won't be able to play him a lot of minutes with Ibaka/Gordon/Payton/whoever, because that's not a strong offensive lineup at this point either. So if you're right and he only plays 20 minutes per game, I like that $17M/yr contract even less.

Noah and Mozgov got ghastly contracts, but at least they got ghastly contracts to (presumably) be starters.

Like I said, last year Biyombo couldn't even get the MLE. Now he's getting $70M, so he'd better be making a Whiteside-like leap forward on the court. I have no problem with Orlando looking for a rim protector at C...but I don't like the valuation and Vogel is going to have his work cut out for him.

Green is strictly a backup on a one-year deal and allows ORL to keep their cap flexibility going into next summer. Those guys you mentioned, Gordon, Smith, Green... I can name more, Ridnour, Ronnie Price, Willie Green, Jason Maxiell.... all veterans who played a back up role and provided experience that the Magic's youngsters lacked. None of whom created a lockerroom fuss or prevented the Magic from moving on quickly after them.

Never said I had a problem with the players. It just seems like Hennigan picks one to randomly overpay every year. You're right that they are just short-term hits but there still isn't really any reason to do it.

A lot of those contracts were needed to reach the salary floor.

[Skin]

Every move the Magic made was to support Vogel. It's weird to think someone would put separation between Vogel and the moves the Magic made. Vogel is a defensive centric coach. He needed the horses. Inheriting Nikola Vucevic, Jason Smith, Andrew Nicholson and even Aaron Gordon at PF (who has difficulty defending bigs) required a MAJOR upgrade for Vogel to implement his system. The Magic didn't sign a fourth traditional big; if Vucevic, Biyombo, and Ibaka combine for something like 80 minutes per game -- say 30 apiece for the starters, and 20 for the backup center -- that would still leave 16 minutes for small ball with Gordon at power forward. Biyombo's main skillsets are defense and rebounding. He's not gonna stop giving that. He got less than a 31 year old, broken down Noah. I can't believe people are still shocked by the sticker prices of NBA FAs.

My feeling is that Biyombo is not going to be your starting C very often; his offensive skillset is so limited that you won't be able to play him a lot of minutes with Ibaka/Gordon/Payton/whoever, because that's not a strong offensive lineup at this point either. So if you're right and he only plays 20 minutes per game, I like that $17M/yr contract even less.

Noah and Mozgov got ghastly contracts, but at least they got ghastly contracts to (presumably) be starters.

Like I said, last year Biyombo couldn't even get the MLE. Now he's getting $70M, so he'd better be making a Whiteside-like leap forward on the court. I have no problem with Orlando looking for a rim protector at C...but I don't like the valuation and Vogel is going to have his work cut out for him.

Green is strictly a backup on a one-year deal and allows ORL to keep their cap flexibility going into next summer. Those guys you mentioned, Gordon, Smith, Green... I can name more, Ridnour, Ronnie Price, Willie Green, Jason Maxiell.... all veterans who played a back up role and provided experience that the Magic's youngsters lacked. None of whom created a lockerroom fuss or prevented the Magic from moving on quickly after them.

Never said I had a problem with the players. It just seems like Hennigan picks one to randomly overpay every year. You're right that they are just short-term hits but there still isn't really any reason to do it.

A lot of those contracts were needed to reach the salary floor.

We didn't need to give Green $15M to reach the floor. We could've given him less. But the amount on his deal never really mattered to begin with. What mattered was the years. When Evan Turner is making $72M and Solomon Hill is making $52M over 4 years, giving Green $15M over 1 year is fine. He knows his role.

[wise1-2]

My feeling is that Biyombo is not going to be your starting C very often; his offensive skillset is so limited that you won't be able to play him a lot of minutes with Ibaka/Gordon/Payton/whoever, because that's not a strong offensive lineup at this point either. So if you're right and he only plays 20 minutes per game, I like that $17M/yr contract even less.

Noah and Mozgov got ghastly contracts, but at least they got ghastly contracts to (presumably) be starters.

Like I said, last year Biyombo couldn't even get the MLE. Now he's getting $70M, so he'd better be making a Whiteside-like leap forward on the court. I have no problem with Orlando looking for a rim protector at C...but I don't like the valuation and Vogel is going to have his work cut out for him.



Never said I had a problem with the players. It just seems like Hennigan picks one to randomly overpay every year. You're right that they are just short-term hits but there still isn't really any reason to do it.

A lot of those contracts were needed to reach the salary floor.

We didn't need to give Green $15M to reach the floor. We could've given him less. But the amount on his deal never really mattered to begin with. What mattered was the years. When Evan Turner is making $72M and Solomon Hill is making $52M over 4 years, giving Green $15M over 1 year is fine. He knows his role.

I wasn't talking about Green. It's this part that I'm replying to: "It just seems like Hennigan picks one to randomly overpay every year. You're right that they are just short-term hits but there still isn't really any reason to do it."
Guys like Ben Gordon and Channing Frye were needed to reach the salary floor. They weren't random overpays for no reason.

[Skin]

yeah yeah, your continued hate for Ibaka continues. He still had 2 bpg last year, more than anything Orlando had. Also Biyombo will add to the post defense. Ibaka 5X better than Vuc for post defense. Ibaka perfect fit to play with Vuc and then even tougher when Biyombo in.

Ibaka is one of my favorite players. Don't put words in my mouth. I've actually been one of his biggest defenders both here and on Reddit.

I'm not disputing anything of that, just was curious who you were referring to with post defense. Pointing out that Serge is most comfortable as a weak-side shot blocker rather than a primary post defender isn't hating on him any more than saying Vucevic is a good offensive player with limited defensive utility is.

Yeah, I agree. Ibaka is closer defined as a rim protector, than a post defender. This has always been his game. I was cheering for OKC vs MIA in the Finals, so seeing Lebron and Wade attack the lane like they did was frustrating. I can totally get where OKC fans are coming from in this regard. Steven Adams emergence finally gave them what they needed for post defense.

[loserX]

Every move the Magic made was to support Vogel. It's weird to think someone would put separation between Vogel and the moves the Magic made. Vogel is a defensive centric coach. He needed the horses. Inheriting Nikola Vucevic, Jason Smith, Andrew Nicholson and even Aaron Gordon at PF (who has difficulty defending bigs) required a MAJOR upgrade for Vogel to implement his system. The Magic didn't sign a fourth traditional big; if Vucevic, Biyombo, and Ibaka combine for something like 80 minutes per game -- say 30 apiece for the starters, and 20 for the backup center -- that would still leave 16 minutes for small ball with Gordon at power forward. Biyombo's main skillsets are defense and rebounding. He's not gonna stop giving that. He got less than a 31 year old, broken down Noah. I can't believe people are still shocked by the sticker prices of NBA FAs.

My feeling is that Biyombo is not going to be your starting C very often; his offensive skillset is so limited that you won't be able to play him a lot of minutes with Ibaka/Gordon/Payton/whoever, because that's not a strong offensive lineup at this point either. So if you're right and he only plays 20 minutes per game, I like that $17M/yr contract even less.

Noah and Mozgov got ghastly contracts, but at least they got ghastly contracts to (presumably) be starters.

Like I said, last year Biyombo couldn't even get the MLE. Now he's getting $70M, so he'd better be making a Whiteside-like leap forward on the court. I have no problem with Orlando looking for a rim protector at C...but I don't like the valuation and Vogel is going to have his work cut out for him.

Green is strictly a backup on a one-year deal and allows ORL to keep their cap flexibility going into next summer. Those guys you mentioned, Gordon, Smith, Green... I can name more, Ridnour, Ronnie Price, Willie Green, Jason Maxiell.... all veterans who played a back up role and provided experience that the Magic's youngsters lacked. None of whom created a lockerroom fuss or prevented the Magic from moving on quickly after them.

Never said I had a problem with the players. It just seems like Hennigan picks one to randomly overpay every year. You're right that they are just short-term hits but there still isn't really any reason to do it.

Offensive skills are not a priority for starting Centers. If it were, Vucevic would be a hot trade commodity. If you prioritize that, how about a Vucevic for Gobert swap? Gobert, DeAndre, R. Lopez, Bogut, Noah, Dwight, Steven Adams... all starters better known for their defense than offense. All worth a big price tag. You know who's better known for their offense? Brook Lopez, Nik Vucevic...

Every single player on that list is a better offensive player than Biyombo, a number of them by a significant margin. Staying in the starting lineup isn't a problem for them.

It's fine to want (and get) a good defensive C. But if you put a poor offensive player into a lineup that already can't shoot, you're going to have a lot of issues.

Your team paid $17M/year for four years for a guy who may not be able to fit with your starting lineup at all. Sorry, I can't judge that a great move.

The reason for bringing in vets is to provide depth. When you have a young team, you need to be careful about the type of vets your surround them with. If you're trying to develop lottery picks, you don't do it by signing a guy that will steal a lot of minutes from them or appear like the future at the position. Hennigan has hand picked vets that have been survivors in the NBA. Who have found a way to carve a niche in the NBA. You can provide veteran leadership and mentoring the young minds. They are not starting quality vets for a reason, but can hold their own in spot minutes.

I'll quote myself again: "Never said I had a problem with the players. It just seems like Hennigan picks one to randomly overpay every year. You're right that they are just short-term hits but there still isn't really any reason to do it."

[RexRyan]

Shady -

Ben Gordon! Channing Frye! Luke Ridnour! Jacque Vaughan! Scott Skiles!

Not too many teams turn things around completely, and I mean completely, in 3 years or less.

I'll bet that's exactly what Hennigan said when he got the two year extension! Forget about completely, the Magic are still NOWHERE NEAR where they were pre-Hennigan.

The Rebuild Continues!

Stop trying to patronize. You're horrible at it.

[Skin]

I still find it comical that OKC posters continually laugh at how lopsided the trade was but before it happened, they turned down a hypothetical version of it on this board.

But I guess once ESPN says it's a rip off you just gotta go with the flow. Not hating, just don't like the wishy washy attitude. Own up to it if you thought it wasn't a good trade for you it's okay to stand out.

Anywho I didn't mind our offseason. Oladipo was tough to lose from an emotional standpoint but from a talent one, we will definitely survive. Fournier is similarly talented but a better fit for us. I think Vogel wanted this team to have an identity and he got it, with flexibility. Lots of guys on decent value deals, no real bad contracts unless a 1 year deal counts.

I disliked it because I didn't realize Oladipo was an adequate shooter until I did some research after the trade, and the #11 being Sabonis tipped it over the edge for me. Yeah, I'm on record as pooh-poohing the original trade idea—not for value, but for fit. But Dipo's at least a better shooter than Robes, and I didn't realize that he's actually pretty solid as a spot-up guy in the corners.

It is still true that we have a big hole at the 4—all we've done is move the problem spot—but hopefully Sabonis develops to be that guy.

I appreciate the admittance. This actually happens a lot. Sometimes it takes a little more research to know the players involved in trade ideas, but folks commenting on the trade never give it that honest effort before judging.

I think Oladipo is going to continue to get better and better and will be an OKC fan favorite in no time.

[wise1-2]

Shady -

Ben Gordon! Channing Frye! Luke Ridnour! Jacque Vaughan! Scott Skiles!

Not too many teams turn things around completely, and I mean completely, in 3 years or less.

I'll bet that's exactly what Hennigan said when he got the two year extension! Forget about completely, the Magic are still NOWHERE NEAR where they were pre-Hennigan.

The Rebuild Continues!

Stop trying to patronize. You're horrible at it.

Since we're ignoring everything, but their records... They won 37 games the season before hennigan took over, and 35 last season. Try again.

[Skin]

My feeling is that Biyombo is not going to be your starting C very often; his offensive skillset is so limited that you won't be able to play him a lot of minutes with Ibaka/Gordon/Payton/whoever, because that's not a strong offensive lineup at this point either. So if you're right and he only plays 20 minutes per game, I like that $17M/yr contract even less.

Noah and Mozgov got ghastly contracts, but at least they got ghastly contracts to (presumably) be starters.

Like I said, last year Biyombo couldn't even get the MLE. Now he's getting $70M, so he'd better be making a Whiteside-like leap forward on the court. I have no problem with Orlando looking for a rim protector at C...but I don't like the valuation and Vogel is going to have his work cut out for him.



Never said I had a problem with the players. It just seems like Hennigan picks one to randomly overpay every year. You're right that they are just short-term hits but there still isn't really any reason to do it.

Offensive skills are not a priority for starting Centers. If it were, Vucevic would be a hot trade commodity. If you prioritize that, how about a Vucevic for Gobert swap? Gobert, DeAndre, R. Lopez, Bogut, Noah, Dwight, Steven Adams... all starters better known for their defense than offense. All worth a big price tag. You know who's better known for their offense? Brook Lopez, Nik Vucevic...

Every single player on that list is a better offensive player than Biyombo, a number of them by a significant margin. Staying in the starting lineup isn't a problem for them.

It's fine to want (and get) a good defensive C. But if you put a poor offensive player into a lineup that already can't shoot, you're going to have a lot of issues.

Your team paid $17M/year for four years for a guy who may not be able to fit with your starting lineup at all. Sorry, I can't judge that a great move.

The reason for bringing in vets is to provide depth. When you have a young team, you need to be careful about the type of vets your surround them with. If you're trying to develop lottery picks, you don't do it by signing a guy that will steal a lot of minutes from them or appear like the future at the position. Hennigan has hand picked vets that have been survivors in the NBA. Who have found a way to carve a niche in the NBA. You can provide veteran leadership and mentoring the young minds. They are not starting quality vets for a reason, but can hold their own in spot minutes.

I'll quote myself again: "Never said I had a problem with the players. It just seems like Hennigan picks one to randomly overpay every year. You're right that they are just short-term hits but there still isn't really any reason to do it."

Every single player on that list is not a better offensive player than Biyombo. I don't even know what you're basing that off of. Certainly not PER36. I have an assumption that you're just looking at his PPG. But that's just lazy. Put Biyombo next to Chris Paul and I bet the quality of his shots and PPG raise dramatically compared to playing with ball hogs such as Lowry and Kemba in the past. DeAndre is a great benefactor. The rest of those guys are in striking range. Howard has been a featured player and Adams is on the upswing, so I can concede some there. The point remains, having a Center that defends the post, rebounds and blocks shots is a bigger priority and fundamental need. They don't cripple your line up and waste minutes on the floor.

You can't tell me in a vacuum that the Biyombo signing was bad. You have to justify it by saying it's bad "in that line up that can't shoot". But again, you are misguided. The Magic are going to test the versatility limits of their players this year. Hennigan added 3 players who shoot near a 40% clip from 3 in Augustin, Meeks, and Wilcox. He got rid of one inconsistent shooter in Dipo and gave those minutes to Fournier. Ibaka and Vucevic can shoot. In an interview, Vogel even said he will test Vucevic as a corner 3 shooter and put him in position to expand his game and give him some extended minutes at PF. Payton is going to set up Biyombo for easy baskets like he's never had from a previous PG before. It's bound to help his offensive numbers. Isolating your critique to saying "he needs to be surrounded by shooters" is just inaccurate.

And in terms of veteran depth signings... if not that, then what strategy is better?

Theoretically (I'm not asking for names), how should've the Magic addressed their depth around their young lottery picks that they are trying to develop?

[Woody Allen]

The Ibaka trade was extremely lopsided. I predict he'll walk in about 11 months as well, and the only way of preventing him from deserting is probably to give him a 5-year max next summer, which is equally outrageous.

I appreciate that they got themselves rid of the garbage coach that is Scott Skiles.

But if a team like Toronto signs Ibaka for the max then it's not outrageous. amirite?

Where did you ever get that from? Stop trying to make excuses for your team's shortsighted moves. It's not going to help anything in reality.

[RexRyan]

Shady -

Ben Gordon! Channing Frye! Luke Ridnour! Jacque Vaughan! Scott Skiles!

Not too many teams turn things around completely, and I mean completely, in 3 years or less.

I'll bet that's exactly what Hennigan said when he got the two year extension! Forget about completely, the Magic are still NOWHERE NEAR where they were pre-Hennigan.

The Rebuild Continues!

Stop trying to patronize. You're horrible at it.

Since we're ignoring everything, but their records... They won 37 games the season before hennigan took over, and 35 last season. Try again.

They played 66 games the season before hennigan took over, and 82 last season. Have a good afternoon.

[loserX]

Every single player on that list is not a better offensive player than Biyombo. I don't even know what you're basing that off of. Certainly not PER36. I have an assumption that you're just looking at his PPG. But that's just lazy.

I live in Canada...I'm not a Raptors fan but I've seen many of their games (that's all we get on TV!), including everything they did in the playoffs. Biyombo is a bad offensive player, trust me. His hands are about as good as mine are

He's not as good as anyone on that list offensively. Think more like Omer Asik.

The point remains, having a Center that defends the post, rebounds and blocks shots is a bigger priority and fundamental need. They don't cripple your line up and waste minutes on the floor.

That's the part I disagree with. When a bad offensive player goes into a bad offensive squad, it absolutely can cripple your lineup. Not saying it'll never work, just saying that Vogel is going to have to adjust to it and it won't be easy.

You can't tell me in a vacuum that the Biyombo signing was bad. You have to justify it by saying it's bad "in that line up that can't shoot". But again, you are misguided. The Magic are going to test the versatility limits of their players this year. Hennigan added 3 players who shoot near a 40% clip from 3 in Augustin, Meeks, and Wilcox.

None of those guys will start. Which means Biyombo has to play off the bench to play with them (which is probably a good idea). Which means $70M for a 20-minute guy, by your estimation. I just think it's too much money for that role, that's all.

And in terms of veteran depth signings... if not that, then what strategy is better?

Theoretically (I'm not asking for names), how should've the Magic addressed their depth around their young lottery picks that they are trying to develop?

I guess I'm not making myself clear. It's fine to pay veteran players. There is no reason to overpay them.

[Skin]

Orlando constantly makes head scratching moves. Why Meeks? Why 17/year for Biyombo? Why trade away a good young asset (and a lottery pick) for one that's been fading, especially when you're nowhere near a championship? Why 4 years for DJ? Why one year, $15 million for Jeff Green, especially so early in free agency? Who exactly was Orlando bidding against for Biyombo, DJ, and Green?

This year they'll fail, then spend a couple of years undoing these moves, and start again. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. I give them a D.

Because Meeks is a scorer with ~40% accuracy from 3 on a one year low risk deal and can give us depth behind Fournier. ORL is trying to make the playoffs without throwing away their future with depth signings that could kill them.

$17M for Biyombo was the going rate. ORL didn't set his price tag. LAL (Mozgov), NYK (Noah) did.

Ibaka isn't fading. He's disgruntled exerting his energy and playing with ball hogs. We've all been there on the court before. His body and conditioning are an obvious priority to him. Not worried about him turning into mush. ...oh, and if you could hand pick any player in the league to compliment Vucevic and Biyombo, it would be Serge.

Why 4 years for a reliable backup PG? Because at $7M that is a deal. Next year, it will cost $10M for a reliable backup and increasingly more each year. When Augustin is in the last year of his deal, that $7M will be peanuts. Most of all, Vogel hand picked him and has a prior knowledge having him in Indy. That's why he was a Day 1 signing and the Magic didn't wait for a leftover on Day 8.

ORL approached Green and said, "We want you to be a good team player, know your role, compete hard, provide depth, versatility, experience, rough Gordon up in practice, show him what it takes to survive 8 years in the league as a SF/PF, and don't create drama in the lockeroom... but we only want you for 1 year." Green said, "That'll cost you $15M." Hennigan took out the checkbook.

[Illmatic12]

Offensive skills are not a priority for starting Centers. If it were, Vucevic would be a hot trade commodity. If you prioritize that, how about a Vucevic for Gobert swap? Gobert, DeAndre, R. Lopez, Bogut, Noah, Dwight, Steven Adams... all starters better known for their defense than offense. All worth a big price tag. You know who's better known for their offense? Brook Lopez, Nik Vucevic...

Every single player on that list is a better offensive player than Biyombo, a number of them by a significant margin. Staying in the starting lineup isn't a problem for them.

It's fine to want (and get) a good defensive C. But if you put a poor offensive player into a lineup that already can't shoot, you're going to have a lot of issues.

Your team paid $17M/year for four years for a guy who may not be able to fit with your starting lineup at all. Sorry, I can't judge that a great move.

The reason for bringing in vets is to provide depth. When you have a young team, you need to be careful about the type of vets your surround them with. If you're trying to develop lottery picks, you don't do it by signing a guy that will steal a lot of minutes from them or appear like the future at the position. Hennigan has hand picked vets that have been survivors in the NBA. Who have found a way to carve a niche in the NBA. You can provide veteran leadership and mentoring the young minds. They are not starting quality vets for a reason, but can hold their own in spot minutes.

I'll quote myself again: "Never said I had a problem with the players. It just seems like Hennigan picks one to randomly overpay every year. You're right that they are just short-term hits but there still isn't really any reason to do it."

Every single player on that list is not a better offensive player than Biyombo. I don't even know what you're basing that off of. Certainly not PER36. I have an assumption that you're just looking at his PPG. But that's just lazy. Put Biyombo next to Chris Paul and I bet the quality of his shots and PPG raise dramatically compared to playing with ball hogs such as Lowry and Kemba in the past. DeAndre is a great benefactor. The rest of those guys are in striking range. Howard has been a featured player and Adams is on the upswing, so I can concede some there. The point remains, having a Center that defends the post, rebounds and blocks shots is a bigger priority and fundamental need. They don't cripple your line up and waste minutes on the floor.

You can't tell me in a vacuum that the Biyombo signing was bad. You have to justify it by saying it's bad "in that line up that can't shoot". But again, you are misguided. The Magic are going to test the versatility limits of their players this year. Hennigan added 3 players who shoot near a 40% clip from 3 in Augustin, Meeks, and Wilcox. He got rid of one inconsistent shooter in Dipo and gave those minutes to Fournier. Ibaka and Vucevic can shoot. In an interview, Vogel even said he will test Vucevic as a corner 3 shooter and put him in position to expand his game and give him some extended minutes at PF. Payton is going to set up Biyombo for easy baskets like he's never had from a previous PG before. It's bound to help his offensive numbers. Isolating your critique to saying "he needs to be surrounded by shooters" is just inaccurate.

And in terms of veteran depth signings... if not that, then what strategy is better?

Theoretically (I'm not asking for names), how should've the Magic addressed their depth around their young lottery picks that they are trying to develop?

I gotta jump in here.. Biyombo is a pretty hapless offensive player outside of putbacks. He has no touch, and poor hands. Which player on that list above is he comparable to? Dwight and Jordan are better finishers, and much more imposing threats rolling to the basket. Lopez, Bogut, Adams have very sure hands, some touch around the basket and at least a few effective scoring moves. Even guys like Noah who are poor scorers can at least set up teammates and get assists. Biyombo's TOs are more than twice his assists.

It's going to be tough for Payton to set teammates up for anything easy on offense, considering he is a non-shooter playing with other poor offensive players, and defenders will just go under the screen. There will be little space for Biyombo to roll, the entire defense will already be sitting in the paint waiting.

I cannot believe you're implying he'd get more easy looks with the Magic, than he did with the #5 offense in the league last season. Biyombo is a very poor offensive player, and it will be exacerbated by the lineups he'll be playing in with Orlando, that feature poor shooters and/or passers.

[Skin]

Every single player on that list is not a better offensive player than Biyombo. I don't even know what you're basing that off of. Certainly not PER36. I have an assumption that you're just looking at his PPG. But that's just lazy.

I live in Canada...I'm not a Raptors fan but I've seen many of their games (that's all we get on TV!), including everything they did in the playoffs. Biyombo is a bad offensive player, trust me. His hands are about as good as mine are

He's not as good as anyone on that list offensively. Think more like Omer Asik.

The point remains, having a Center that defends the post, rebounds and blocks shots is a bigger priority and fundamental need. They don't cripple your line up and waste minutes on the floor.

That's the part I disagree with. When a bad offensive player goes into a bad offensive squad, it absolutely can cripple your lineup. Not saying it'll never work, just saying that Vogel is going to have to adjust to it and it won't be easy.

You can't tell me in a vacuum that the Biyombo signing was bad. You have to justify it by saying it's bad "in that line up that can't shoot". But again, you are misguided. The Magic are going to test the versatility limits of their players this year. Hennigan added 3 players who shoot near a 40% clip from 3 in Augustin, Meeks, and Wilcox.

None of those guys will start. Which means Biyombo has to play off the bench to play with them (which is probably a good idea). Which means $70M for a 20-minute guy, by your estimation. I just think it's too much money for that role, that's all.

And in terms of veteran depth signings... if not that, then what strategy is better?

Theoretically (I'm not asking for names), how should've the Magic addressed their depth around their young lottery picks that they are trying to develop?

I guess I'm not making myself clear. It's fine to pay veteran players. There is no reason to overpay them.

There's another thing that you're missing about Biyombo. It's his infectiousness on the court that is a catalyst for everyone to hustle and put their hearts into it. I know what you're trying to allude to on the offensive side and that has more to do in half court sets, but Vogel wants to implement a fast paced system. Their game is going to be triggered off the hustle plays that Biyombo and Serge will be a big part of creating. Speed, movement and fast breaks.

If the pace of the game adjusts to a halfcourt need, that is where Vuc comes in. You seem to have everyone's minutes defined already, which I think is pretty miraculous. The Magic are only 1 deep at C and both will be exposed to PF minutes.

There is even some hope Vucevic and Biyombo might share the floor for a few minutes on some nights, with Vucevic spotting up around Biyombo's rolls on the rim -- and Biyombo defending quicker power forwards on the other end. "We will explore that," Vogel said. "It won't work against a lot of teams, but it might work against some."
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/17145557/the-orlando-magic-fighting-become-viable-again

So much fuss about overpaying veterans on 1 year deals. All I know is so far, none have been lockeroom cancers.

[Skin]

Every single player on that list is a better offensive player than Biyombo, a number of them by a significant margin. Staying in the starting lineup isn't a problem for them.

It's fine to want (and get) a good defensive C. But if you put a poor offensive player into a lineup that already can't shoot, you're going to have a lot of issues.

Your team paid $17M/year for four years for a guy who may not be able to fit with your starting lineup at all. Sorry, I can't judge that a great move.



I'll quote myself again: "Never said I had a problem with the players. It just seems like Hennigan picks one to randomly overpay every year. You're right that they are just short-term hits but there still isn't really any reason to do it."

Every single player on that list is not a better offensive player than Biyombo. I don't even know what you're basing that off of. Certainly not PER36. I have an assumption that you're just looking at his PPG. But that's just lazy. Put Biyombo next to Chris Paul and I bet the quality of his shots and PPG raise dramatically compared to playing with ball hogs such as Lowry and Kemba in the past. DeAndre is a great benefactor. The rest of those guys are in striking range. Howard has been a featured player and Adams is on the upswing, so I can concede some there. The point remains, having a Center that defends the post, rebounds and blocks shots is a bigger priority and fundamental need. They don't cripple your line up and waste minutes on the floor.

You can't tell me in a vacuum that the Biyombo signing was bad. You have to justify it by saying it's bad "in that line up that can't shoot". But again, you are misguided. The Magic are going to test the versatility limits of their players this year. Hennigan added 3 players who shoot near a 40% clip from 3 in Augustin, Meeks, and Wilcox. He got rid of one inconsistent shooter in Dipo and gave those minutes to Fournier. Ibaka and Vucevic can shoot. In an interview, Vogel even said he will test Vucevic as a corner 3 shooter and put him in position to expand his game and give him some extended minutes at PF. Payton is going to set up Biyombo for easy baskets like he's never had from a previous PG before. It's bound to help his offensive numbers. Isolating your critique to saying "he needs to be surrounded by shooters" is just inaccurate.

And in terms of veteran depth signings... if not that, then what strategy is better?

Theoretically (I'm not asking for names), how should've the Magic addressed their depth around their young lottery picks that they are trying to develop?

I gotta jump in here.. Biyombo is a pretty hapless offensive player outside of putbacks. He has no touch, and poor hands. Which player on that list above is he comparable to? Dwight and Jordan are better finishers, and much more imposing threats rolling to the basket. Lopez, Bogut, Adams have very sure hands, some touch around the basket and at least a few effective scoring moves. Even guys like Noah who are poor scorers can at least set up teammates and get assists. Biyombo's TOs are more than twice his assists.

It's going to be tough for Payton to set teammates up for anything easy on offense, considering he is a non-shooter playing with other poor offensive players, and defenders will just go under the screen. There will be little space for Biyombo to roll, the entire defense will already be sitting in the paint waiting.

I cannot believe you're implying he'd get more easy looks with the Magic, than he did with the #5 offense in the league last season. Biyombo is a very poor offensive player, and it will be exacerbated by the lineups he'll be playing in with Orlando, that feature poor shooters and/or passers.

Payton is going to have to improve as a shooter. Whether or not he does or not will determine how long he stays in that role. But Biyombo is locked in for 4 years and it's more of a matter of Payton fitting in with him than him fitting in with Payton. If the Magic find a PG who can shoot via trade during the season or some other way next summer, then all this fuss about Biyombo is temporary. In the meantime, heck, if there's going to be all these missed shots like you guys are referring to, then having a good rebounding C and put back machine is all the more important to have. Vogel did a great job figuring out how to get the best out of Roy Hibbert. There's high confidence for him to get the best out of Biyombo.

[Colbinii]

Every single player on that list is not a better offensive player than Biyombo.

Yes they are. The biggest things between a lot of those players and Biyombo is the fact that you can dump it down low to them and they will make a play, Biyimbo can't.
Look at AST%, Bogut: 14.8%, Lopez: 8.5%, Jordan: 5.3%, Gobert: 7.4%, Biyombo: 2.4%. All of these players are a lot better passers than Biyombo, even DJ is a better passer.
Next, you can look at OBPM, Bogut: -.6, Lopez: .1, Jordan: -.4, Gobert: -1.1, Biyombo: -2.4. None of these players are anywhere near as bad as Biyombo. There is a reason all of these players have higher USG% than Biyombo besides Gobert, and that is because an offense can actually utilize them in the post.
You can even look at ESPN ORPM; Bogut: -2.24, Lopez: -.95, Jodan: +.35, Gobert: -1.55, Biyombo: -2.97.
Now, the most important thing you can base this on, is not stats, but actually watching how these players operate in the post, and how their respective teams use them in the post. Just watching the games it should be clear that Biyombo isn't even on a level of Gobert offensively, let alone the rest of these players.

I don't even know what you're basing that off of.

Every statistic that measures offensive impact.

Certainly not PER36.

This would be an awful way to conclude how good a player is offensively.

I have an assumption that you're just looking at his PPG. But that's just lazy.

Nah, I would assume that Loser_X is actually watching the games.

Put Biyombo next to Chris Paul and I bet the quality of his shots and PPG raise dramatically compared to playing with ball hogs such as Lowry and Kemba in the past.

Lowry isn't a ball-hog. Lowry was an all-star in part because of his way to run the offense, not his ball-hogging. Biyombo isn't anywhere close to the finisher that DeAndre is around the rim, so it wouldn't be the same swapping Biyombo and DJ.

DeAndre is a great benefactor.

I actually think Chris Paul benefits more from DJ than the other way around. Is there a PG in the league that couldn't throw lobs to DJ? No, they all could, because he is a fantastic off-ball player in the post.

The rest of those guys are in striking range.

Gobert is, sure, but his offensive trajectory is higher than Biyombo currently.

Howard has been a featured player and Adams is on the upswing, so I can concede some there.

Both of these players are much better offensively than Biyombo. I don't think the comparison can be had. And Joakim Noah? The Bulls ran the offense partly through for the past 4 years.

The point remains, having a Center that defends the post, rebounds and blocks shots is a bigger priority and fundamental need. They don't cripple your line up and waste minutes on the floor.

This isn't true. In your starting line-up you need two-way players. Look at the teams in the Finals and their Bigs. Love, great offensive player and he played great defense in the NBA Finals. Tristan Thompson, player well on both sides of the ball. Draymond Green? Fantastic on both ends. When GSW subbed in Ezeli (comparable level player to Biyombo) they got crushed; slaughtered.

You can't tell me in a vacuum that the Biyombo signing was bad. You have to justify it by saying it's bad "in that line up that can't shoot". But again, you are misguided.

He isn't misguided though. He is using every piece of evidence he has, that the magic are a poor 3 pt shooting team and lost their best floor spacer, Channing Frye.

The Magic are going to test the versatility limits of their players this year. Hennigan added 3 players who shoot near a 40% clip from 3 in Augustin, Meeks, and Wilcox.

This should benefit the team in terms of spacing, but none of those players will get more than 15-20 MPG unless you want to be in the lottery.

He got rid of one inconsistent shooter in Dipo and gave those minutes to Fournier.

First, Fournier already played 32 MPG and started in 71 games. I don't think he is going to be "taking Dipo's minutes", that will be Mario I assume. Second, Oladipo shot the 3rd best on the team (not counting Frye who was traded, Illyasova who played in 22 games) and was .1% worse than Mario. He was one of your best 3 pt shooters last season.

Ibaka and Vucevic can shoot.

Yes, for me Ibaka/Dipo are going to be essentially a wash in terms of impact on the team.

In an interview, Vogel even said he will test Vucevic as a corner 3 shooter and put him in position to expand his game and give him some extended minutes at PF.

He definitely has the skills to do so, well, except for guarding other team's 4's. That is going to look like a nightmare trying to chase stretch 4's around.

Payton is going to set up Biyombo for easy baskets like he's never had from a previous PG before.

Lowry is a better passer, so I am not sure how this is going to be the case. Biyombo also had the luxury of playing with a team where all focus was on Lowry/DD and spacing throughout the lineup.

Theoretically (I'm not asking for names), how should've the Magic addressed their depth around their young lottery picks that they are trying to develop?

I think they should have gone after a more proven commodity at the wing and have Hezonja play 20-24 mpg in a 6th man role. I do like the Ibaka trade, but with their cap space, I would have liked to see them get a better 3+D player to put on the roster if they were really serious about making the playoffs, rather than DJ Augustin, the corpses of Meeks and Wilcox.

Obviously, time will tell how the Magic do. I am excited to see how the team progresses, and I do think the Green signing wasn't as bad as some people are making it out to be. I still think they are a season away from making the post-sesaon in a much improved Eastern Conference, but they will definitely be a fun team to watch with a great head coach.

[Texas Chuck]

I know I will get needless blowback on this, but you do realize you don't actually have to hit the salary floor, right? And that other teams have gotten assets at the deadline for taking on contracts while getting themselves to the floor. So you can't defend bad one-year signings because of the floor. Sorry.

[orlando_joe]

wow after reading a little of this seems like magic should get the #1 pick next summer and the GM fired ...doomed to be the worst team that made the worst choices ever by a gm ...guess the fact that 50 voted B- or better must all be homers that know nothing about the team needs or moves voting blindly..as stated by a few posters...