Magic 25th ranked starters in NBA?!?!?!

[OrlDave]

Dude. No he's not. He's never been better Jennings and likely wont ever be. Maybe in terms of fit

Jennings was absolute garbage last year. Sure Jennings has been good, but he was terrible for us. He had no lift or explosion. He wasn't hitting shots. He wasn't hitting 3s at any respectable rate. So it wouldn't take much for Jodi to exceed what Brandon did, because the bar is so low.

[npiper17]

Dude. No he's not. He's never been better Jennings and likely wont ever be. Maybe in terms of fit

Jennings was absolute garbage last year. Sure Jennings has been good, but he was terrible for us. He had no lift or explosion. He wasn't hitting shots. He wasn't hitting 3s at any respectable rate. So it wouldn't take much for Jodi to exceed what Brandon did, because the bar is so low.

If the choice was between having either of the two on the roster for the coming season then it's Meeks without a doubt. Jennings is done IMO - a shame as SVG had him going before his achilles injury.

I actually liked the Meeks trade before he had further surgery. He was effectively a one year, $6.5m player who addressed a need. Since news of the surgery broke, it has made me call into question some of our pre-trade processes; one of which should be 'is this guy injured?'

[JF5]

Who do you guys think were ranked too high other than the Knicks?

I would place the Magic over the 5 teams ranked head of them (20-24th) and I think the Rockets are ranked too high. They're starting Trevor Ariza, Beverly and Clint Capela for crying out loud.

They have a Superstar caliber player in James Harden...

[JF5]

Apparently Utah will be a top 4 team this year. #5 starters, #1 bench. Did I miss where they signed Durant??

To be fair to Utah when they were completely healthy they had one of the better records in the league. The only reason why they didn't make the playoffs was because of the injuries to Gobert (Where they lost a lot of games in that time frame) and Favors down the stretch. Probably could've finished around 50 Wins easily if that wasn't the case.

[KingRobb02]

Apparently Utah will be a top 4 team this year. #5 starters, #1 bench. Did I miss where they signed Durant??

To be fair to Utah when they were completely healthy they had one of the better records in the league. The only reason why they didn't make the playoffs was because of the injuries to Gobert (Where they lost a lot of games in that time frame) and Favors down the stretch. Probably could've finished around 50 Wins easily if that wasn't the case.

That and they didn't have a point guard last year. That was a major negative. Even a zero would be an improvement.

[Mc-o]

Who do you guys think were ranked too high other than the Knicks?

I would place the Magic over the 5 teams ranked head of them (20-24th) and I think the Rockets are ranked too high. They're starting Trevor Ariza, Beverly and Clint Capela for crying out loud.

They have a Superstar caliber player in James Harden...

Lmao can't believe someone thinks we have a better roster than Houston lol #delusional

[Blue_and_Whte]

Dude. No he's not. He's never been better Jennings and likely wont ever be. Maybe in terms of fit

Jennings was absolute garbage last year. Sure Jennings has been good, but he was terrible for us. He had no lift or explosion. He wasn't hitting shots. He wasn't hitting 3s at any respectable rate. So it wouldn't take much for Jodi to exceed what Brandon did, because the bar is so low.

He just came back from Achilles surgery..... Of course he didn't look explosive or quick for us. Plus Meeks hasn't played one game for Orlando and only played 3 games last season so what are you basing your opinion on?

[OrlDave]

Dude. No he's not. He's never been better Jennings and likely wont ever be. Maybe in terms of fit

Jennings was absolute garbage last year. Sure Jennings has been good, but he was terrible for us. He had no lift or explosion. He wasn't hitting shots. He wasn't hitting 3s at any respectable rate. So it wouldn't take much for Jodi to exceed what Brandon did, because the bar is so low.

He just came back from Achilles surgery..... Of course he didn't look explosive or quick for us. Plus Meeks hasn't played one game for Orlando and only played 3 games last season so what are you basing your opinion on?

Fair enough. Meeks is not a guy I spend a ton of time contemplating. Sometimes I get down these rabbit holes discussing **** I don't even care that much about. Like the 9-10th guy off the bench. So, I'm conceding this point. i still think he'll be better than BJ because Achilles are tough, but who knows.

[OrlandO]

Jennings was absolute garbage last year. Sure Jennings has been good, but he was terrible for us. He had no lift or explosion. He wasn't hitting shots. He wasn't hitting 3s at any respectable rate. So it wouldn't take much for Jodi to exceed what Brandon did, because the bar is so low.

He just came back from Achilles surgery..... Of course he didn't look explosive or quick for us. Plus Meeks hasn't played one game for Orlando and only played 3 games last season so what are you basing your opinion on?

Fair enough. Meeks is not a guy I spend a ton of time contemplating. Sometimes I get down these rabbit holes discussing **** I don't even care that much about. Like the 9-10th guy off the bench. So, I'm conceding this point. i still think he'll be better than BJ because Achilles are tough, but who knows.

I agree with you - if we're talking about both being able to stay somewhat healthy next season I'd take Meeks as he doesn't require the ball as much and his shot selection is better. Jennings play style with the mentality of trying to prove he can still be great after an achilles tear would be cancerous to this team... guy is a career 39% shoot-first PG, it's not like he's going to bounce back from his injury and be efficient all of a sudden. No thanks.

[MagicFan32]

Magic fans needed a dose of reality, the team spent recklessly this summer and made some high risk moves, you cannot call dipo/11 for ibaka a good trade when ibaka has been a statistically declining player, who can also walk in a year. it has to play out but it is high risk.

biyombo is also an expensive, high risk signing.

dipo was one of few magic players that could get his own shot, now we have a starting lineup full of questionable offensive talent

this could work out but this could end up as a disaster as well

duration of the ibaka's contract has no relevancy with how good of a team we are this year compared to last year
usage of 11th pick on the trade or any other quantification of that trade also has no relevancy to that.
biyombo's price also has no relevancy.

How is none of it relevant? you have to look at the entire picture. I suppose what's more relevant is Ibaka's declining impact.

Usage of 11th pick does have relevancy, how can you say it doesn't?

Biyombo's price is relevant, it's a monster deal for a career backup we don't know if he's going to be as motivated as he was last year

[basketballRob]

As far as our moves people don't value defense the same as offense.

I think people kind of overvalue individual defense sometimes. We could have signed 03 Ben Wallace last month, but in the wrong scheme with the wing guys around, he wouldn't help as much as you think. It's just hard to judge how much defensive players will add since it's not as linear as offensive production.

I think people will have to wait and see when the Magic are facing a strong defensive team. Then, we will see what happens when the Magic only have 2 people that have a decent shooting percentage out of the 5 on the court can do against strong defenses. Vooch haters will be screaming to put him back in the game! lol

I'm pretty sure Payton is the only one with a worse shooting percentage than Vuc, if we're talking efg.

[basketballRob]

Magic fans needed a dose of reality, the team spent recklessly this summer and made some high risk moves, you cannot call dipo/11 for ibaka a good trade when ibaka has been a statistically declining player, who can also walk in a year. it has to play out but it is high risk.

biyombo is also an expensive, high risk signing.

dipo was one of few magic players that could get his own shot, now we have a starting lineup full of questionable offensive talent

this could work out but this could end up as a disaster as well

As far as our moves people don't value defense the same as offense.

I think people kind of overvalue individual defense sometimes. We could have signed 03 Ben Wallace last month, but in the wrong scheme with the wing guys around, he wouldn't help as much as you think. It's just hard to judge how much defensive players will add since it's not as linear as offensive production.

Everyone says poor perimeter defense but that's really too be determined later. When you have to sink into the paint to help your center and you can't play up on your man because your he could get by you, then of course you're going to have a poor perimeter defense.

[NavalAviator94]

As far as our moves people don't value defense the same as offense.

I think people kind of overvalue individual defense sometimes. We could have signed 03 Ben Wallace last month, but in the wrong scheme with the wing guys around, he wouldn't help as much as you think. It's just hard to judge how much defensive players will add since it's not as linear as offensive production.

Everyone says poor perimeter defense but that's really too be determined later. When you have to sink into the paint to help your center and you can't play up on your man because your he could get by you, then of course your going to have a poor perimeter defense.

This is exactly right. Ibaka gives us the ability to defend the 3pt line, something we have not been able to do. What many folks aren't thinking about when you look at roster make up with centers is the revolution of 3 pt shooting. Team's have to prepare to defend the 3 and it's very difficult to do that without Rim Protection. It's why we see a preference on a defensive center. The magic have something very unique in that we have one of the best scoring centers in the NBA, paired with a NBA leading Rim protector. And....we have another leading Rim protector in our second Unit...ensuring that we will always be able to defend the 3pt line. We are going to be very good defensively this year.

[Xatticus]

As far as our moves people don't value defense the same as offense.

I think people kind of overvalue individual defense sometimes. We could have signed 03 Ben Wallace last month, but in the wrong scheme with the wing guys around, he wouldn't help as much as you think. It's just hard to judge how much defensive players will add since it's not as linear as offensive production.

Everyone says poor perimeter defense but that's really too be determined later. When you have to sink into the paint to help your center and you can't play up on your man because your he could get by you, then of course you're going to have a poor perimeter defense.

I really disagree with with this reasoning. The only really valid question is how much will Vogel's scheme mask the deficiencies of our perimeter defenders, the extent of which I am skeptical. I get that his defenses in Indiana were highly successful, but we simply don't have the personnel that those Indiana defenses had. Really, I'm particularly skeptical that any defense with Fournier on the floor can be highly efficient, but we will find out.

Our wings are poor perimeter defenders because they lack the physical tools to perform adequately in that regard. We traded away our best perimeter defender, by far, this summer. What makes Vucevic a poor defender is that he is among the worst in the league with help defense at the rim at a position in which it is a necessary function. It isn't really his inability to defend his position that makes him poor, but rather his inability to help mask the deficiencies of other players. Vucevic's on/off court defensive numbers weren't actually bad, unlike Fournier's. This essentially indicates that Fournier's defense adversely impacted everyone else's defensive numbers, not the other way around. Vucevic's lack of defensive versatility only compounds his defensive shortcomings as he can't defend anyone away from the basket. This means that Ibaka's assignment is likely to keep him far from the basket for most of the minutes they share on the court, as the NBA is littered with fours that can hit the corner 3 at a rate that compels you to cover them out there. Isn't this precisely the argument for why his numbers have deteriorated so dramatically over the last few seasons?

Vogel clearly places more emphasis on defending the 3-point line than did Skiles, and that can only help. But opposing teams with capable playmakers on the wings are going to eviscerate our defense. We have literally no one on the roster that we can situationally call upon to counter this. This is especially problematic in late quarter/half/game isolation plays.

I think we collectively greatly overestimate the role of rim protection in defense. For what it's worth, blocks don't actually equate to rim protection, but Biyombo and Ibaka both grade out well in the latter, so despite this common misconception it isn't particularly relevant as it pertains to this team. Toronto and OKC finished 11th and 13th respectively in team defensive efficiency with Biyombo and Ibaka.

Other teams with "elite" rim protectors and their teams' defensive efficiency rankings:
Miami (Whiteside) - 9th
Utah (Gobert/Withey) - 7th
Golden St. (Bogut/Ezeli) - 6th
Chicago (Gasol) - 15th

Boston finished 4th in defensive efficiency, yet the closest thing they had to a rim protector was Amir Johnson, who only grades out as slightly above average in that regard. Defense is a collective effort. You can't simply add a plus defender to your lineup and pretend that the liabilities have disappeared. We actually let Dedmon walk, though he was a solid rim protector.

[woosah]

25th starters
23rd bench

Dang should we even play any games this year? Let them tell it we are lottery bound again. smh

[MagicStarwipe]

I think Vogel is pretty confident he can create a good defense with pieces like Payton, Gordon, Ibaka and Biyombo. That's pretty damn versatile. I know people don't think Payton is good at anything anymore, but he actually can defend and Vogel will help him get even better. I share your concern about Vuc playing with Ibaka and that is the reason I said after the trade that it doesn't necessarily solve our problems if teams are just going to drag Ibaka out of the paint.