Top 150+ GOAT (Peak, Prime, Longevity, Award)

[2klegend]

Looking at your Manu Ginobilli rank, I've gotta say I am pretty shocked.

That being said, I have thought of him as #3 between Kobe and Wade during his era. I need to look deeper into your ranking method, but you have come up with some interesting statistical conclusions.

Perhaps investigate why some greats ( like Steve Nash) ended up so low. Otherwise, great work, keep building and improving and your system.

The only issue with Manu is the minute play but I won't penalized him for that because he played pretty much 30min in his prime which is only 6-8min off from other stars full minute. Manu is definitely an interesting case. He is putting up superstar impact and is super efficient at doing so that's why you see him rank pretty high. Very underrated peak.

For Nash, I'm not really surprise. Before Phoenix, Nash wasn't anything special. Nash is one of those guy who come to a team at the right time and at the right place. They have the perfect players that compliment his game and a system to fit his style. Though he wasn't anything special in the advance stat and that show why he is low on the list. Beside his 2MVP, he doesn't have anything to show to people. He never even play in the NBA Final and he was a weak defensive player. Despite his brilliant on the offensive end, he is a far negative defensive player so his overall impact hurt him a lot more than guys like Billups who is inferior offensively to Nash but far superior in both O/D for instance.

[2klegend]

Add 10 new players to Top 100!

James Harden
Bobby Jones
Chris Mullin
Bernard King
Jermaine O'Neal
Bob MCAdoo
Tim Hardaway
Deron Williams
Artis Gilmore - Did not count his ABA career
Carmelo Anthony

So my goal is done! I will periodically update to match the current player career.

[ChilledAlex]

You have put some effort in this and I don't want to be rude or anything but giving quick glance at 'awards' section it says that: Dwayne Wade/Scottie Pippen/David Robinson/ Denis Rodman has no rings?


And I noticed it pretty much accidentaly and didnt pay much attention on formulas and outcome in other rankings...

[2klegend]

You have put some effort in this and I don't want to be rude or anything but giving quick glance at 'awards' section it says that: Dwayne Wade/Scottie Pippen/David Robinson/ Denis Rodman has no rings?


And I noticed it pretty much accidentaly and didnt pay much attention on formulas and outcome in other rankings...

They all do but it counts differently. Refer to this for reference.

Title as the Main Focus (best player) = 10pts
Title as the compliment star = 5pts
Title as support role = 2.5
MVP = 10pts
Final MVP = 5pts

[trex_8063]

It's fun and interesting stuff. I hope you're not all done with this. You've somewhat arbitrarily chosen 100 players to run thru the formula, but they are almost assuredly NOT the top 100 your formula would yield if you put a larger sample thru.
For example, I'd be very comfortable betting that there are AT LEAST 25 players who would finish ahead of each of your bottom three (Marbury, Bing, and J.O'Neal).

Just some suggestions off the top of my head for who else to consider putting thru:
Bill Sharman
Bailey Howell
Larry Nance
Horace Grant
Bob Dandridge
Dave DeBusschere
Marques Johnson
Jeff Hornacek
Bill Laimbeer
Terry Porter
Maurice Cheeks
Ed Macauley


I'd not be surprised at all to find that every single one of them finishes ahead of your current bottom three.

[trex_8063]

Oh, Walt Bellamy, too. He'd likely place somewhat high I'd wager.

Don't think I saw Neil Johnston, either. He'd be another good one.

EDIT: Maybe Detlef Schrempf, too. And I'd be curious about guys like George McGinnis and Spencer Haywood. Even without the ABA sample included, they may well finish ahead of that bottom three, too.

[trex_8063]

Dan Issel also would be good to run, imo. Even without his ABA years, I think you'll be surprised: he'll probably rate top 80-90 even without them. Generally underrated/under-appreciated player, imo.

EDIT: Sam Cassell, too.

[2klegend]

I will now just accept request. It would be cool to see if your player stack up against the top 100. Will need some time to evaluate those players mentioned.

[trex_8063]

I will now just accept request.

In that case, all of the ones I mentioned above----which, to recap, were:

Bill Sharman
Bailey Howell
Larry Nance
Horace Grant
Bob Dandridge
Dave DeBusschere
Marques Johnson
Jeff Hornacek
Bill Laimbeer
Terry Porter
Maurice Cheeks
Ed Macauley
Dan Issel
Spencer Haywood
George McGinnis
Walt Bellamy
Detlef Schrempf
Neil Johnston
Sam Cassell

.......as well as:
Dennis Johnson
Chet Walker---->I think you'll be surprised how high he'll likely end up.
Buck Williams
Terry Cummings

[trex_8063]

Just trying to keep you busy ......

Few more requests to run thru:

Hal Greer
Tiny Archibald
Vlade Divac (humor me.....I think you'll be surprised)
Billy Cunningham (even without ABA years, he'll likely at least finish ahead of those bottom three---J.O'Neal, Marbury, and Bing).

[Owly]

Not requests per se as whilst there’s clearly a lot of work gone into this, I have too many quibbles with methodology to be super interested in the results, but here are some of the stronger boxscore careers that might be worth inputting (tagged trex if he’s already requested them).

Walt Bellamy (trex req)
Larry Nance (trex req)
Jack Sikma
Neil Johnston (trex)
Vlade Divac (trex)
Bailey Howell (trex)
Wes Unseld
Terry Cummings (trex)
Ed Macauley (trex)
Jeff Hornacek (trex)
Dan Issel (trex)
Eddie Jones
Horace Grant (trex)
Chet Walker (trex)
Terry Porter (trex)
Andre Miller
Detlef Schrempf (trex)
Jason Terry
Marques Johnson (trex)
Sam Jones
Sam Cassell (trex)
Rod Strickland
Harry Gallatin
Bill Laimbeer
Marcus Camby
Rashard Lewis
Walter Davis

Maybe worth looking at Carlos Boozer, Alvan Adams, Andrei Kirilenko, John Drew, Maurice Cheeks and Gus Williams.

[trex_8063]

Not requests per se as whilst there’s clearly a lot of work gone into this, I have too many quibbles with methodology to be super interested in the results, but here are some of the stronger boxscore careers that might be worth inputting (tagged trex if he’s already requested them).

Walt Bellamy (trex req)
Larry Nance (trex req)
Jack Sikma
Neil Johnston (trex)
Vlade Divac (trex)
Bailey Howell (trex)
Wes Unseld
Terry Cummings (trex)
Ed Macauley (trex)
Jeff Hornacek (trex)
Dan Issel (trex)
Eddie Jones
Horace Grant (trex)
Chet Walker (trex)
Terry Porter (trex)
Andre Miller
Detlef Schrempf (trex)
Jason Terry
Marques Johnson (trex)
Sam Jones
Sam Cassell (trex)
Rod Strickland
Harry Gallatin
Bill Laimbeer
Marcus Camby
Rashard Lewis
Walter Davis

Maybe worth looking at Carlos Boozer, Alvan Adams, Andrei Kirilenko, John Drew, Maurice Cheeks and Gus Williams.

I'd suggested Mo Cheeks previously too. He's definitely a worthwhile inclusion. Thought I'd mentioned Unseld and Sam Jones, but looking back I see I didn't. They are definitely overdue to be included by this stage. Jack Sikma is also an excellent suggestion (mildly aghast I overlooked him). Wouldn't argue against any of the other suggestions either. Guys like Laimbeer, Andre Miller, and Eddie Jones I'll wager will finish surprisingly (to most people) high.

[2klegend]

Here is the next top 100+ crop of new 30 players along with their associated GOAT rank. I remove Detlef Schrempf because he is not worth evaluating. He is just a random average player.

101 Bill Sharman
68 Bailey Howell
63 Larry Nance
57 Horace Grant
108 Bob Dandridge
91 Dave DeBusschere
73 Marques Johnson
85 Jeff Hornacek
87 Bill Laimbeer
104 Terry Porter
99 Maurice Cheeks
101 Ed Macauley
109 Dan Issel
129 Spencer Haywood
127 George McGinnis
89 Walt Bellamy
123 Steve Francis
70 Neil Johnston
98 Sam Cassell
121 Dennis Johnson
71 Chet Walker
125 Buck Williams
119 Terry Cummings
126 Joe Johnson
102 Lamar Odom
116 Hal Greer
130 Tiny Archibald
74 Vlade Divac
113 Billy Cunningham
90 Marcus Camby

[2klegend]

Just trying to keep you busy ......

Few more requests to run thru:

Hal Greer
Tiny Archibald
Vlade Divac (humor me.....I think you'll be surprised)
Billy Cunningham (even without ABA years, he'll likely at least finish ahead of those bottom three---J.O'Neal, Marbury, and Bing).

You were right on Vlade and Cunningham. Archibald is a tough one. He is a stat-paddler until he got to Boston, by then he wasn't the same player anymore.

[trex_8063]

I remove Detlef Schrempf because he is not worth evaluating. He is just a random average player.

I'll bet you $100 he finishes ahead of at least 3-4 of the players in your current 130.

[Owly]

I remove Detlef Schrempf because he is not worth evaluating. He is just a random average player.

I'll be[t] you $100 he finishes ahead of at least 3-4 of the players in your current 130.

Only 3-4?

Obviously with a high stakes bet (even a "internet"/"forum" one) you'd want to be sure, and so leave yourself a margin for error.

But wouldn't you expect him in circa Hornacek territory (that would be around 85 as it presently stands though Sikma, Unseld and others might push that down). I haven't really thought through the specifics of how this system affects their relative standings (TS% as an independent factor favouring Hornacek, longevity based only on PER rather than say WS/48 hurts both etc).

But, for instance, I'd be very, very surprised if Odom (presently 102) came out ahead of him.

[trex_8063]

I remove Detlef Schrempf because he is not worth evaluating. He is just a random average player.

I'll be[t] you $100 he finishes ahead of at least 3-4 of the players in your current 130.

Only 3-4?

Obviously with a high stakes bet (even a "internet"/"forum" one) you'd want to be sure, and so leave yourself a margin for error.

Exactly
I'd not be surprised to see him come out ahead of 12-15 of them (maybe more).

But wouldn't you expect him in circa Hornacek territory (that would be around 85 as it presently stands though Sikma, Unseld and others might push that down). I haven't really thought through the specifics of how this system affects their relative standings (TS% as an independent factor favouring Hornacek, longevity based only on PER rather than say WS/48 hurts both etc).

But, for instance, I'd be very, very surprised if Odom (presently 102) came out ahead of him.

I'd not be surprised to find Odom ahead of him on this particular formula. The valuation on titles (where Lamar has notable advantage), and NO value given to non-finals/non-MVP awards (i.e. All-Stars, All-NBA's, where Detlef has advantage) are things that shift the comparison back toward Odom (where it otherwise might look like a clear-cut advantage to Detlef).

[Quotatious]

Calling Detlef Schrempf "just a random average player" is seriously insulting. He averaged 19/9.5/6 on 57% TS one season - that's pretty much a poor man's Larry Bird. Hell, that wasn't even necessarily his best season - he averaged 19/6/4 on 64% TS in '95 (including 51% 3-pt - even with a shortened 3-pt line, that's phenomenal).

[2klegend]

I remove Detlef Schrempf because he is not worth evaluating. He is just a random average player.

I'll bet you $100 he finishes ahead of at least 3-4 of the players in your current 130.

Well, he does crack the top 130, ranking at 128 so you were right.

Here is the next 20 player to become Top 150.

31 Sam Jones
56 Wes Unseld
83 Tyson Chandler
88 Andrei Kirilenko
89 Alvan Adams
98 Eddie Jones
100 Jack Sikma
101 Walter Davis
102 Carlos Boozer
106 Harry Gallatin
115 Gus Williams
120 Rashard Lewis
126 Jason Terry
128 Detlef Schrempf
131 Rod Strickland
137 Andre Miller
138 John Drew
139 Larry Johnson
141 Mitch Richmond
142 Glen Rice

[2klegend]

I remove Detlef Schrempf because he is not worth evaluating. He is just a random average player.

I'll be[t] you $100 he finishes ahead of at least 3-4 of the players in your current 130.

Only 3-4?

Obviously with a high stakes bet (even a "internet"/"forum" one) you'd want to be sure, and so leave yourself a margin for error.

But wouldn't you expect him in circa Hornacek territory (that would be around 85 as it presently stands though Sikma, Unseld and others might push that down). I haven't really thought through the specifics of how this system affects their relative standings (TS% as an independent factor favouring Hornacek, longevity based only on PER rather than say WS/48 hurts both etc).

But, for instance, I'd be very, very surprised if Odom (presently 102) came out ahead of him.

Odom came out ahead of him. I do however found a diamond in Sam Jones who crack the Top 50.